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Guest MrHSinghK

This is my favourite Kirtain track at the moment it's so sweet everyone should listen to this

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    • I disagree that the actions taken are useless. If anything the united front that we have shown have unnerved the Indian govt. To have questions asked in the British parliament stating that an British citizen has been tortured would have caused embarrassment to the Indian govt. The fact that Sikh leaders around the world like Jagmeet Singh criticising the treatment of Jagtar Singh Jaggi will have put more pressure on the GOI.  Does that image look familar? No. it's not Jaggi but Jaswant Singh Azad and it's not from 2017 but  from 2012 when an elderly Sikh maningh Azad from Sunderland in UK was arrested and framed in Punjab with the same charges as Jaggi faces now. It took him 5 long years and it was only in July this year that he was finally cleared.  https://www.sunderlandecho.com/news/crime/sunderland-shopkeeper-arrested-in-india-over-alleged-terrorism-and-gun-offences-1-5008858 https://sikhsiyasat.net/2017/07/26/bhai-daljit-singh-bittu-jaswant-singh-azad-acquitted-jalandhar-uapa-case/ Jaswant Singh Azad did not have British MPs asking questions about his treatment, he didn''t have Sikhs around the world rally to his support. This is the difference between 2012 and now. We are more united and we can carry out a well co-ordinated campaign for a fellow Sikh suffering in India. If you look back historically we have had prominent Sikhs not just tortured but murdered in Punjab and yet the Sikhs abroad did not even organise a protest. So I think we shouldn't dismiss what we have achieved in just a few weeks. That fat oaf Amarinder has pretty much turned all Sikhs abroad against him. Do you think he will be able to come to any western country now. If the Sikh organisations use the legal pathways that are available they could have him arrested when he places one step in a western country. We Sikhs should be using the same legal techniques that the Palestinians are using abroad where many Israeli politicians cannot come to some western countries as they could be arrested for abetting torture.  Already images of the police dog who tortured Jaggi have been put on facebook. He is known to visit Canada and it should now be up to Sikh organisations to use the law in Canada so that the next time he steps foot in Canada he is arrested for his crimes. That would put a stop to the impunity enjoyed by the Punjab police dogs. 
    • The romantic factor definitely plays a part. Too many Waris Shah wannabes. It was the early Arab invaders who had an inferiority complex themselves, due to the fact they adopted Persian. I think this rubbed off on the Punjabi Muslim majority, and that in turn influenced the native Hindu and Sikh population. It's the same reason why Urdu is so popular among them today. True. The animosity towards Sikhs was stronger during the period of the later Gurus, namely when Sikhs were beginning to wield more political power. Maybe it was in an effort to cement their power as rulers, in some ways emulating the Mughal Empires use of Persian, which in itself is a non-secular language? I've met quite a few Farsi/Dari speakers myself and it's evident. Most of them still strongly identify with their culture, and of course it's a well known fact that that Iranians hate being associated all things Arab.. As for the Islamic influence in the subcontinent etc being Persian, it's true but even this is now disappearing in more than one aspect. A good example is clothing - many Indian and Pakistanis are now ditching the salwar kameez and kurta pajama in favour of the Arab jubba. A fickle bunch.
    • I reiterate again that we need to purge only our vernacular of Perso-Arabic influences, and leave Gurbani as it is. This change can only happen over the next generation, as we teach our kids to speak indigenous words and not pass on Perso-Arabic words. So instead of passing on dunya, you pass on sansaar to your children. This will start the change. And I limit this not only to Perso-Arabic influences, but also English as well. I cringe when I myself or anyway mixes the two languages. Each language has its own beauty and deserves to be spoken with respect, and mixing words from foreign languages is disrespect.  We need to unearth the pre-Islamic Punjabi lexicon in order for this to be done. We can draw from 11th century Nath poetry to find Punjabi words that have been killed by their Perso-Arabic replacements. We can also draw from similar or parent languages such as Prakrits (e.g. Pali) and Sanskrit (though some users on here oppose this). We need to actively do this as a community and not as individuals. We as a community will have to settle on an agreement and revise the Punjabi lexicon, and set up a new Shabdkosh. If you respect your mother-tongue Punjabi, then you will agree with this needed revision. What respect are we giving our language by burying its own words into obscurity for the words spoken by foreign invaders, that’s called neglect and is disrespectful to our heritage. As Ranjeet has already stated many of our own are spineless and think that Arabic and Farsi words are more soulful, romantic, respectful, and intelligent. And so they cling on to these foreign words and it’s one of the reasons these words have trickled down from the past to the present. We need to change their backstabbing opinions or completely ignore their nagging and move on ahead with this needed revision.
    • Guest Jagsaw_Singh
      What you mean "your theory" Ranjeet ?  The proxy war between Iran and Saudi Arabia is the obvious worldwide known fact that is in every paper and every news broadcast. And you think it is just "your" own personal "theory" that you just thought of in your own mind just now ?    Well done. That's a very good point Ranjeet. The Islam at the time of our Gurus was very different to the Islam that we have today. It was a faith of poetry, love and ground-breaking philosophy (Punjabi word falasafa - I'll come back to this at the end). Indeed it was through the philosophy of Islam that the world was re-introduced to the Aristotle and the philosophy of the ancient Greeks. Indeed at that time to be a Muslim was to be a true lover of Sophia. But then that changed when a particular brand of philosophy came about and got popular. This brand is harsh, strict and non-forgiving...and once you embrace that philosophy there is no going back to softer tones because this philosophy condemns all others as false. And Islam has been stuck in the harsh version of Islam ever since. They reached the point of no return. We may wonder how and under what circumstances a faith reaches that point of no return but the fact is to a certain extent we Sikhs are doing the same thing right now. Let me give you an example of how, now that we are no longer lovers of Sophia, we are following the footsteps of the Muslims: As you know I like nothing better than to sit down with the bajurgs and listen to their stories. Whenever I talk to any of the old timers that were around the Sikh Gurdwaras of China, Hong Kong, Thailand, Indonesia, Australia  etc in the early 1900s they always tell me that the Sikh community and Gurdwaras grew solely because of the Sindhi Hindus. They told me it was always Sindhi Hindu women who could and would read Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji and look after Guru ji. It was always Sindhi Hindu women that sang kirtan for the congregation. So, lets look at it this way. The (the Sindhi Hindus) are largely responsible for our succesfull spiritual growth in the west but now we've reached such a no going back philosophical stage we wouldn't even dream of letting Sindhi Hindu women be our granthis in the Gurdwaras. So you see we too are now, without knowing it, a  bit like the Muslims. Like them, once we stopped being lovers of Sophia we became locked in an embrace with dogma. Sophia makes for a prettier embrace than dogma but dogma stays your companion 'till the bitter end. You can't divorce your old girl dogma. Once you tie the knot with her you're tied for life. Being a lover of Sophia is now a distant thing of the past. Now, you remember I said near the start of my message that I'd come back to the Punjabi word for philosophy (falasafa). I wanted to mention it again here because I wanted to show how it ties in with words in the Punjabi language that come from Arabic but have no actual value when used in Punjabi and so should, perhaps, be expunged from Punjabi. The word Philosophy in it's proper sense means to love (phil) knowledge (sofia). We are Sikhs...i.e those who thirst for knowledge. So, in so many ways we Sikhs should be world's greatest lovers of sophia. But instead we take a meaningless Arabic corruption of the world philosophy and incorporate that into our language as 'the word'.  It's up to each of us individually I think to resist the closed embrace of dogma and return to the loving open arms of sofia. Its not easy...I know more than anyone how you will suffer for it by being called names and ridiculed. But a step by step divorce from dogma is vital if one wishes to develop a deep and meaningful relationship with one's language, history, culture and faith. When one understands that one understands how the everyday Islam during our Guru's time was very different to the everyday Islam of today.