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AjeetSinghPunjabi

Homosexuality

43 posts in this topic

Please no jokes as this will just serve to make a serious discussion into a mockery.

In all honesty both Punjabi Sikhs and white Sikhs have their share of goods and bads. Yogi Bhajjan did do some good work in bringing people from a non Sikh background into the Sikh fold. For this I beleive he used Yoga to attract them. Contrary to what most might think but 3ho is not 100% in line with Yogi Bhajjan's thinking either. For example, Yogi Bhajjan was of the opinion that Homosexuality is abnormal and not in line with Gurmat lifestyle yet according to Guruka Singh and Mr Sikhnet homosexuality is perfectly normal and in no way does it go against Gurmat. In this I beleive that Guruka Singh is passing his opinion based on Manmat rather than Gurmat because he does not give any example from Bani or from the life of the Gurus to support his opinion.

Yogi bhajan never said anything negative against homosexuality .

Ok , if you think homosexuality is against gurmat , show me where it says in SGGS .

SGGS is much above this worldly dramas of sexual orientation , etc etc..

Killing gays and discrimination has always been the domain of abrahamic religions

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Yogi bhajan never said anything negative against homosexuality .

Ok , if you think homosexuality is against gurmat , show me where it says in SGGS .

SGGS is much above this worldly dramas of sexual orientation , etc etc..

Killing gays and discrimination has always been the domain of abrahamic religions

An excerpt on his attitude toward homosexuality reads:

"...Yogi Bhajan at first was shocked by the phenomenon. Through the 1970s and early 1980s, Yogi Bhajan taught that the condition could be cured through intensive yoga and self-analysis. By the late 1980s, however, Yogi Bhajan resigned himself to the conclusion that "sometimes God goofs" and puts men into women's bodies and vice versa."

http://indiakids.blogspot.ca/2009/03/yogi-bhajan-on-wiki.html

and yes Homosexuality lifestyle is not in accordance to Gurmat. The Akal Takht has given it's hukamnama in this regard as well which says marriage is for a man and woman not same sex. And where did I say kill gays or persecute them? please do not lie and put words into other people's mouths. Just because a person does not agree with homosexuality does not mean they are being hateful towards homosexuals. Our Gurus, Bhagats, Sikhs from puraatan times to the modern times have always practiced marriage between man and woman. No where do we support abnormal sexual deviancy. Please stop trying to mix western culture with Sikhism. Just as Sikhi rejects certain practices of Punjabi culture same way Sikhi rejects some aspects of western culture such as homosexuality.

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An excerpt on his attitude toward homosexuality reads:

"...Yogi Bhajan at first was shocked by the phenomenon. Through the 1970s and early 1980s, Yogi Bhajan taught that the condition could be cured through intensive yoga and self-analysis. By the late 1980s, however, Yogi Bhajan resigned himself to the conclusion that "sometimes God goofs" and puts men into women's bodies and vice versa."

http://indiakids.blo...an-on-wiki.html

and yes Homosexuality lifestyle is not in accordance to Gurmat. The Akal Takht has given it's hukamnama in this regard as well which says marriage is for a man and woman not same sex. And where did I say kill gays or persecute them? please do not lie and put words into other people's mouths. Just because a person does not agree with homosexuality does not mean they are being hateful towards homosexuals. Our Gurus, Bhagats, Sikhs from puraatan times to the modern times have always practiced marriage between man and woman. No where do we support abnormal sexual deviancy. Please stop trying to mix western culture with Sikhism. Just as Sikhi rejects certain practices of Punjabi culture same way Sikhi rejects some aspects of western culture such as homosexuality.

Well said Johny.

Long time, no see. What you been upto?

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Did homosexuality originate from the West? Surely it's a human condition based on physiology and not geographical location?

If it's not in-line with Sikhi then as a Sikh there is no counter argument. I don't agree with the homosexual "way" at all. It's simply not my cup of tea, but I don't consider homosexuals to be lesser human beings or deserving of contempt implied or otherwise. There's just some things you've got to put up your hands and say "Tera bhaana meetha laga" and just get on with it. If we genuinely do believe that Waheguru is in full control of his creation then you must attribute it all to his wisdom.

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Well said Johny.

Long time, no see. What you been upto?

Brother, I was in India the last 2 months but always read this forum every chance I got. Great hearing from you.

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Did homosexuality originate from the West? Surely it's a human condition based on physiology and not geographical location?

If it's not in-line with Sikhi then as a Sikh there is no counter argument. I don't agree with the homosexual "way" at all. It's simply not my cup of tea, but I don't consider homosexuals to be lesser human beings or deserving of contempt implied or otherwise. There's just some things you've got to put up your hands and say "Tera bhaana meetha laga" and just get on with it. If we genuinely do believe that Waheguru is in full control of his creation then you have attribute it all to his wisdom.

Where have I said that homosexuals are lesser human being? why are people stating things I did not even say? People have all sorts of sexual urges does not mean we act on them. Some people(pedophiles) feel sexual feelings for little children does that make it okay just because they are programmed this way? Living in the west does not mean we get influenced by everything the westerners do. I'm surprised to see how some Sikhs are defending homosexuality as being in accordance with Gurmat, A Sikhs is one who is like a lotus untouched by it's surroundings.

As Sikhs we are not to persecute homosexuals or think of them any less as humans but to go as far as saying that their lifestyle in perfectly okay with Gurmat is ludicrous. If we as Sikhs accept homosexuality as being okay with Gurmat then where do we draw the line? is pedophilia, necrophilia and incest also acceptable to Gurmat according to you?

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Did homosexuality originate from the West? Surely it's a human condition based on physiology and not geographical location?

Gay male's brain structure is found similar to those of women and lesbian women's brain structure similar to brain .

there is a theory that if male fetus doesn't get enough testosterone in womb , his brain is not masculinized enough . so he becomes gay

http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/111663.php

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you know sorry for diverging the main thread , but nothing is more sad than people being holier than thou and "yeah , my religious scripture says XYZ is true ... so it must be ! there's no questioning "

and when you bring them some evidence (verifiable one ) , they put fingers in their ears and 'naah naah I ain't listening' ...

what the doctor says:

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Where have I said that homosexuals are lesser human being? why are people stating things I did not even say?

I never said you did, brother. I would've quoted you if you had. Also, I started a new paragraph when I made my point about the 'lesser human being' issue, so again, nothing was attributed to you on that front. I was responding to certain attitudes held by people regarding gays.

As Sikhs we are not to persecute homosexuals or think of them any less as humans but to go as far as saying that their lifestyle in perfectly okay with Gurmat is ludicrous. If we as Sikhs accept homosexuality as being okay with Gurmat then where do we draw the line? is pedophilia, necrophilia and incest also acceptable to Gurmat according to you?

Where did I say homosexuality is in-line with Gurmat? I never even suggested such a thing! What an outrageous thing to suggest.

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I never said you did, brother. I would've quoted you if you had. Also, I started a new paragraph when I made my point about the 'lesser human being' issue, so again, nothing was attributed to you on that front. I was responding to certain attitudes held by people regarding gays.

Where did I say homosexuality is in-line with Gurmat? I never even suggested such a thing! What an outrageous thing to suggest.

The entire argument is Gays (even if they are sikhs ) don't want Anand Karaj in Gurdwara . You can keep your religious customs . We aren't changing them .

But gays don't want someone to poke their nose when they have a secular marriage with their same sex partner

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As Sikhs we are not to persecute homosexuals or think of them any less as humans but to go as far as saying that their lifestyle in perfectly okay with Gurmat is ludicrous. If we as Sikhs accept homosexuality as being okay with Gurmat then where do we draw the line? is pedophilia, necrophilia and incest also acceptable to Gurmat according to you?

Are you honestly comparing homesexuality to pedophilia and necrophilia? Wow :blink2:

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Are you honestly comparing homesexuality to pedophilia and necrophilia? Wow :blink2:

Yes I am. These are all considered paraphilias.

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Yes I am. These are all considered paraphilias.

No. Clearly the desire to do things with children or dead people is different to the homosexual attraction to the same gender. Paraphilia is characterised by an arousal to:

  1. Non-human objects
  2. The suffering or humiliation of oneself or one's partner
  3. Children
  4. Non-consenting persons

Homosexuality was considered a paraphilia until 1973, but it no longer is.

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No. Clearly the desire to do things with children or dead people is different to the homosexual attraction to the same gender. Paraphilia is characterised by an arousal to:

  1. Non-human objects
  2. The suffering or humiliation of oneself or one's partner
  3. Children
  4. Non-consenting persons

Homosexuality was considered a paraphilia until 1973, but it no longer is.

Due to political correctness of the modern world homosexuality was taken out of the lists of paraphilias in the early 70s because homosexuality began to be widely accepted by the mainstream American society. This is a case of science being influenced by political correctness. Homosexuality is a sexual deviation no doubt. Some sexual deviations like padophilia, necrophilia are banned while some like homosexuality are allowed.

For argument sake, let us say for example that two consenting adults(same sex) want to have a sexual relation with each other, according to you it is okay. Does that mean that incest should also be approved? if a brother-sister, father-daughter, mother-son want to have sexual relations with each other just as long as they are adults is that okay? if not then why is homosexuality okay for you while incest is not?

Gurmat does not agree with everything modern American society does. Ask any Sikh scholar or Mahapursh, no one will agree with homosexuality as being inline with Gurmat. Marriage in Sikh tradition is only between man and woman, not man-man, woman-woman, human-animal, elderly-child, brother-sister etc.

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Are you honestly comparing homesexuality to pedophilia and necrophilia? Wow :blink2:

Some people have no problem with incest, but there are laws against this kind of behaviour. Is this not discrimination? Homosexuality is no different than incest. People are attracted to a lot of manmat stuff and rest of humanity need to help them out of their deviant behaviour, instead of humanity going down to their thinking.

Compassion does not mean letting a person commit a wrong action. Compassion is helping people relief themselves of their deviant behaviour.

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Some people have no problem with incest, but there are laws against this kind of behaviour. Is this not discrimination? Homosexuality is no different than incest. People are attracted to a lot of manmat stuff and rest of humanity need to help them out of their deviant behaviour, instead of humanity going down to their thinking.

Compassion does not mean letting a person commit a wrong action. Compassion is helping people relief themselves of their deviant behaviour.

Fanatics use the same argument when commiting atrocities on "unbelievers" ...

U think aurangzeb was converting kashmiri pandits for time pass ? no , deep down he wanted these kaafirs to go to Jannat (heaven) ... He thought he was right and kashmiri pandits were going to hell for not following islam and thus considered it ok to force them to convert to islam , because converting them would prevent them from going to hell.

So aurangzeb was just thinking for good of people .... could you justify aurangzeb's zulm on this argument ??

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Due to political correctness of the modern world homosexuality was taken out of the lists of paraphilias in the early 70s because homosexuality began to be widely accepted by the mainstream American society. This is a case of science being influenced by political correctness. Homosexuality is a sexual deviation no doubt. Some sexual deviations like padophilia, necrophilia are banned while some like homosexuality are allowed.

For argument sake, let us say for example that two consenting adults(same sex) want to have a sexual relation with each other, according to you it is okay. Does that mean that incest should also be approved? if a brother-sister, father-daughter, mother-son want to have sexual relations with each other just as long as they are adults is that okay? if not then why is homosexuality okay for you while incest is not?

Gurmat does not agree with everything modern American society does. Ask any Sikh scholar or Mahapursh, no one will agree with homosexuality as being inline with Gurmat. Marriage in Sikh tradition is only between man and woman, not man-man, woman-woman, human-animal, elderly-child, brother-sister etc.

Veerji , You have absolutely NO BASIS in sikhi which says homosexuality is bad ! yes , nothing ! Quran and bible has LOTS of verses prohibiting homosexual behavior . Bible even says in "levicitus" that gay men should be put to death and their blood is on their own hands .

sahib SGGS has nowhere condoned/condemned homosexuality even when such people were present during Guru sahib's time . Even if not , u think Guru sahib didn't knew about same-sex desires .. If u think so , u are insulting Guru sahib's omniscience ..

As to why incest is not allowed , well incest or sex between relatives leads to genetic diseases . It leads to abnormal children being born . You will find lots of such cases in some middle-eastern communities where cousins marry (jews/muslims ) .

So , there is a scientific basis for prohibiting incest ..

I am NOT saying sex between men is not unhealthy . Even sexual relationships in wrong orifice ( which is practiced esp by gay men ) leads to several problems like haemorrhoids , anal sphincter problems , anal cancer and such ...

Still , discriminating on basis of sexual orientation and hate crimes against LGBT shouldn't be tolerated

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It will not be too long, when someone in Canada challenges the incest law (most likely Muslims) on a mass scale and the only reason the law to bar this kind of behaviour will pass is because to society allowing incest will create a higher health care bill (make society worse off). There are high health care cost associated with homosexual behaviour as well, but due to political pressure, the law to bar marriage between same sex was dropped.

The same reasoning can be used to allow incest into society as is used for homosexuality. Sikhs need to wake up to these discussions and understand the reasoning behind them.

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Fanatics use the same argument when commiting atrocities on "unbelievers" ...

U think aurangzeb was converting kashmiri pandits for time pass ? no , deep down he wanted these kaafirs to go to Jannat (heaven) ... He thought he was right and kashmiri pandits were going to hell for not following islam and thus considered it ok to force them to convert to islam , because converting them would prevent them from going to hell.

So aurangzeb was just thinking for good of people .... could you justify aurangzeb's zulm on this argument ??

Can you tell me what compassion means in Gurmat terms? If you do, then you can see how irrational your reply is. This is a Gurmat forum not a Muslims forum. Try again.

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Veerji , You have absolutely NO BASIS in sikhi which says homosexuality is bad !

sahib SGGS has nowhere condoned/condemned homosexuality even when such people were present during Guru sahib's time . Even if not , u think Guru sahib didn't knew about same-sex desires .. If u think so , u are insulting Guru sahib's omniscience ..

Have you read all of Satguru Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji Maharaj and then understand all of Gurbani?

Using your logic, a person can come along and say Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji has nowhere condoned/condemned incest even when such people were present during Guru Sahib's time.

YOu have no argument here to allow homosexuality, if you do, then don't discriminate against incest because the same reasoning can be used to allow incest.

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Veerji , You have absolutely NO BASIS in sikhi which says homosexuality is bad ! yes , nothing ! Quran and bible has LOTS of verses prohibiting homosexual behavior . Bible even says in "levicitus" that gay men should be put to death and their blood is on their own hands .

sahib SGGS has nowhere condoned/condemned homosexuality even when such people were present during Guru sahib's time . Even if not , u think Guru sahib didn't knew about same-sex desires .. If u think so , u are insulting Guru sahib's omniscience ..

As to why incest is not allowed , well incest or sex between relatives leads to genetic diseases . It leads to abnormal children being born . You will find lots of such cases in some middle-eastern communities where cousins marry (jews/muslims ) .

So , there is a scientific basis for prohibiting incest ..

I am NOT saying sex between men is not unhealthy . Even sexual relationships in wrong orifice ( which is practiced esp by gay men ) leads to several problems like haemorrhoids , anal sphincter problems , anal cancer and such ...

Still , discriminating on basis of sexual orientation and hate crimes against LGBT shouldn't be tolerated

Brother, let me please be clear that I am in no way advocating that gay people be persecuted to be considered lesser human being because of being homosexuals.

SGGSj is the ustat of Akal Purkh. SGGSj is not like semitic holy books which says what is right and what is not on worldly matters. For example SGGSj remains silent on pedophilia, necrophilia, zoophilia, incest as well but it does not mean those various paraphilias are accepted in Gurmat. Similarly homosexuality is not accepted if one were to see the life and teachings of Sikh gurus, Bhagat Sahibaan or Mahapursh from puraatan to modern times. The Akal Takht has given it's verdict on homosexuality and it clearly states that a marriage can only occur between man and woman not same sex. You can follow the ways of the world or follow Gurmat. A Sikh is suppose to bend himself to fit into SIkhi not bend Sikhi to fit into their preconceived notions.

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Good post Jonny101 veer, totally agree with you there.

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Brother, let me please be clear that I am in no way advocating that gay people be persecuted to be considered lesser human being because of being homosexuals.

SGGSj is the ustat of Akal Purkh. SGGSj is not like semitic holy books which says what is right and what is not on worldly matters. For example SGGSj remains silent on pedophilia, necrophilia, zoophilia, incest as well but it does not mean those various paraphilias are accepted in Gurmat. Similarly homosexuality is not accepted if one were to see the life and teachings of Sikh gurus, Bhagat Sahibaan or Mahapursh from puraatan to modern times. The Akal Takht has given it's verdict on homosexuality and it clearly states that a marriage can only occur between man and woman not same sex. You can follow the ways of the world or follow Gurmat. A Sikh is suppose to bend himself to fit into SIkhi not bend Sikhi to fit into their preconceived notions.

When you put it like that then it makes sense.

It must be tough to be gay though because surely a person is born that way? Imagine being gay but not wanting to be gay. Must be a nightmare.

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Imagine being gay but not wanting to be gay. Must be a nightmare.

Heterosexual Sikhs go through the same nightmare.

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