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UKLondonSikh

Four Of The 5 Pyaaray Were Not Punjabi

73 posts in this topic

On a general note, it's sad to see how someone like Baba Gurbachan Singh Ji is being dismissed out of hand on this thread. I wouldn't presume to know more than them at all. We don't know what they did in terms of intense bhagti for them to reach these conclusions. Despite what I've seen and experienced in my life regarding so-called holy men, I still believe in the great Mahapurashs of the past. I think my brain has been addled by kaljug.

I agree with you totally!

I don't think anyone is dismissing, but there are certain facts that float around that don't tie up or can be taken for granted. We should pay a little attention to this and decide whether to buy them or not.

At the end of the day, we all have the right to our own beliefs, but simple blind following or assumptions should be taken so easily.

A Sikh shouldn't judge but should decide what they want to accept or not. On the same note, we know we all have our faults, be they small or large. But we also know that if someone judges us just in this small fault, then they are getting the incorrect and incomplete impression!

Likewise, we shouldn't do the same when making our own impressions of others.

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We sikhs need to discuss and explore this topic further, discussion is good, it will break down barriers and generate awareness. It may not be comfortable to discuss, especially if one is punjabi, but the truth is that sikhi is for all of humanity, it is not exclusively owned and controlled by ethnic Punjabis or even south Asians for that matter. Historically, guru sahiban have spread God's message throughout the lands, as far as Mecca and perhaps Rome and Tibet. The fact that 80% of panj piare were non Punjabis underlines this even further. Only in relatively recent times (beginning Ranjit Singh rule and culminating in division of Indian states on language lines) has there been strong association between punjabi ethnicity and sikh identity. To non punjabi sikhs it is embarrassing and slightly ridiculous that we are labelled as punjabi or for some, Asian. The label if one must be applied, should be sikh of guru granth sahib ji, without borders and ethnic or even national identity. Labels are primary a punjabi problem. It seems that there is some false pride associated with ethnicity (and caste). In comparison Most non Punjabis feel insulted if they are labelled by ethnicity rather than religion (please stop using 'gora' and 'kala'- very offensive). Most Non Punjabis work very hard to learn new language, especially to be able to contemplate on shabad, but what's the harm in using native language as an every day language especially for prayer services? Diversity is creation of god, let us have unity in diversity! Diversity is what will keep sikhi alive. We can see the affects of punjabiasation of sikhi- youth in punjab are losing religion fast but if sikhi was everywhere and for everyone, positive forces of diverse influence may strengthen the kaum as a whole.

There are many issues and many consequences to be discussed and contemplated by the sangat. There is fierce resistance in some circles to the non punjabi sikh movement (not referring to 3ho) because they largely do not conform to the prevailing party line (rejecting rituals, desiring strong rehit especially women wanting to wear full bana and be granthis etc, wanting gurdwaras in their country to speak the native language, wanting their gurdwara to focus on worldwide humanitarian issues, wanting outreach /missionary programmes to spread guru jis message everywhere, giving dhan shabad guru ji great reverence, etc, to name a few examples of differences in thinking).

To contemplate:

Are sikhs ready to declare open shop and quench the thirst for spirituality in the world? Is the sikh kaum ready to label themselves as sikh first and ethnicity/nationality second? Punjabis have a big caste problem. Unless that is solved, how can we expect them to let go of ethnicity or even nationality?

Is the Sikh kaum prepared to have large numbers of white black (including south Indians who many Punjabis see as black) and yellow sikhs around the world? Are Punjabis ready to marry and mix interracially based on religious values as the priority? Are Punjabis ready to add new takht outside india to represent interests? Will sgpc and akal takht break its focus with punjab state politics and refocus on religion?

Are sikhs ready to serve and protect those suffering outside punjab? Many problems ongoing in the world- from children being raped in Syria, to dying of starvation in madhya pradesh to extermination of gypsies across Europe to threat of world war 3 because of USA/Korea. These are very much issues for akaal purakh ka fauj to solve (peacefully as far as possible).

We need to grow up as a religion. Guru sahiban have paved the way. Many issues to be contemplated and discussed. Please forgive me if you feel insulted if i have over generalised about Punjabis, but truth is sometimes harsh.

UK = rrss Paji thank you so much for your input to this topic. I totally agree with what you say but most specifically the part about the World desperately needing a new 21st century Khalsa Fauj to protect the weak and ensure that no Genocides (which numerically have been worse than our own) such as Rwanda or in DR Congo should ever be allowed to happen again. This needs to be instituted via the UN with Khalsay leading forces to help prevent genocides and to assist in disasters like Haiti etc. I personally would not feel comfortable serving in the British Army but I wouldn't have a problem serving in an international fauj with a Khalsa commanding officer and I know that we as a Panth have the potential to do this and to see the bigger picture that we as Sikhs are not the only ones suffering in this world.

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UK = rrss Paji thank you so much for your input to this topic. I totally agree with what you say but most specifically the part about the World desperately needing a new 21st century Khalsa Fauj to protect the weak and ensure that no Genocides (which numerically have been worse than our own) such as Rwanda or in DR Congo should ever be allowed to happen again. This needs to be instituted via the UN with Khalsay leading forces to help prevent genocides and to assist in disasters like Haiti etc. I personally would not feel comfortable serving in the British Army but I wouldn't have a problem serving in an international fauj with a Khalsa commanding officer and I know that we as a Panth have the potential to do this and to see the bigger picture that we as Sikhs are not the only ones suffering in this world.

Fateh ji, I agree wholeheartedly particularly with international fauj. I am glad there are people who agree that we need to see the bigger picture. What practical steps can we take in out lifetimes to make progress towards getting the panth to realise its potential? Do we need leaders to unite in a top-down approach to changing attitudes or should it be a grass-roots campaign to educate and motivate the youth? How can attitudes be changed? I was once told by a brother sikh that if I was so interested in preventing genocide in Africa, that I should get a gun and go; that it was none of his business, and a sikh charity I spoke to sounded confused and indeed angrily defended their work when I asked them what they're doing outside punjab/delhi, etc. I suppose however the urge to help humanity andaro ana chaiyda hun- youth can be brainwashed easily to support many causes, but true sense of righteous duty is given by God to the one who is eager to serve the Guru.

Also, I posted on another topic as to how a khalsa run aid flotilla (ships and helicopters) can be used to deliver aid, to reach place of conflict and indeed for relaxing slow transport between continents with gurudwara on board, something worth thinking about.

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UK = Koi Paji, i respect your right to your above belief and I don't want to derail this thread away from the original emphasis that all of us Sangat need to propagate more widely the information that Sikhi is not a Punjabi faith but a Universal Truth for Sarbat dha Bhalla.

UK = However, i wanna strongly communicate to you how strongly offended I am that any Sikh let alone Jathedar from Chowk Mehta could be presumptious as to claim that our Bhagats who were completely mukht from duality were incarnated again!? I'm shocked but not angry with you - you're a fellow brother in the Panth and that comes first but I humbly request that you consider the opposite viewpoint which can never imagine our holy Bhagats being incarnated again.

Bhai Sahib, while I do not entirely disagree with your notion that "our Bhagats who were completely mukht from duality were incarnated again", I believe you've missed the point.:

Gurmukh Aaye Jaaye Nisang

Gurmukhs can come and go as they please! You're right, they do not have to come again, they choose to.

UK = I absolutely agree with u Lucky Singh Paji.

UK = Dhan Dhan (Guru) Kabir Ji Maharaj were already amongst the Highest of the High when Guru Nanak Dev Ji Maharaj referred to Kabir Ji Maharaj as one of the Saints the dust beneath whose feet we mere Sikhs are not at the spiritual level. Can you imagine how we would feel if someone said that Guru Angad Dev Ji Maharaj had to come back for Amrit? Honestly Paji, ask yourself deep down.

Again bro, I think you've misinterperated my point. I only mentioned the Bhagat Kabir incedent as it is mentioned in Katha of various mahapurash (Sant Isher Singh JI Rara Sahib etc.) and other sources.

As for your "Guru Angad Dev Ji Maharaj had to come back for Amrit", if you believe all Gurus to be one in the same, then they did take amrit in their tenth form (not to mention taking Charan Pahul from Guru nanak Dev Ji, goes without saying).

UK = Koi Paji, those with infinite kamai are those that became mukht from duality and merged with The One. I understand your reasoning that by claiming all great Sikhs were Hindu Mahapursh's in previous lives, in your reasoning, gives them extra stature but I would humbly and politely say to you with respect that this detracts from the greatness and maha Bibek Buddhi of our greatest examples from the Panth. No wonder the RSS waaly are delighted when every great figure from the Sikh Panth is interpreted by some like yourself as being Hindu Mahapursh reincarnated.

Brother, please can you tell me what your take is on the 17 Bhatts being incarnations of the 4 Vedas (4 incarnations per Ved) and Brahma? This is from the Faridkot Steek, Sampardaaee Steek (Ameer Bhandar), Katha of various Mahapursh etc.

UK = Frankly Paji, i have to respectfully say to you that I regard this as an insult of our Sahibzade. Inder was a rapist, was he not?

I did not say that I endorse this view at all, it was just a point of belief of some Akali Nihangs.

As far as Indar goes, please could you provide the example?

UK = VHS Paji as a neutral yourself in the debate over whether Sri Anandpur Sahib and Vasakhi is more central to what Sikhi is about rather than the historical reasoning given for the construction of our breathtaking GuruGhar at Sri Hemkhunt Sahib ... i am glad you highlighted the dangers of Koi Paji's line of reasoning - which obviously Koi Paji got direct from his reverence for Chowk Mehta Taksal.

Bro, while I respect Chowk Mehta Taksal, please don't assume that I took the reasoning directly from there.

UK = However Paji, respectfully, if you believe that something is wrong and illogical - for example, for some to claim that Guru Gobind Singh Ji Maharaj's lifetime outside of the timeframe of 1666-1708 is actually actually relavant or provable (other than the false speculation it is authored by anti-Sikh forces) then I'd strongly urge you not to see deficiences in yourself as a consequence of your believing in Gurmat. Dhan Dhan Baba Deep Singh Ji were the biggest proponents in favour of Gurmat and propagating the "mission" of Guru Granth Sahib Ji Maharaj. No section of the Panth has exclusive rights upon the legacy of Baba Deep Singh Ji Maharaj (though of course I realise that you are not one of those making such a claim).

UK = Again Lucky Singh Paji i totally agree with you. The indefensible simply cannot be defended. Unfortunately many of our sincere Gursikh brothers and sisters have bought into the above lines of reasoning and we can only win them over to the pro-Gurmat position via pyaar and logic. Every single thing within Sikhi is 100% logical and every single thing we do should be based on the logical application of Gurmat for Sarbat dha Bhalla. Blind faith is the same pathetic excuse used by the Christians and Muslims for their murder of tens of millions via Slavery and various religious Genocides. Sikhi is a totally different Marg based upon indisputable Truth for the welfare of all (as opposed to blind faith ... for the benefit of a few).

While I have given questions here, I appreciate this may derail the original thread. As such, if UKLondonSikh Ji (or anyone else) would like to continue the discussion in that direction, please can I suggest the opening of a new thread?

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rrss = Fateh ji, What practical steps can we take in out lifetimes to make progress towards getting the panth to realise its potential?

UK = We can simply do our own individual best in our lives Paji and work in tandem with like-minded Sangat to spread the goal more widely and achieve the objectives faster collectively.

rrss = Do we need leaders to unite in a top-down approach to changing attitudes or should it be a grass-roots campaign to educate and motivate the youth?

UK = Unity from influential leaders would be great and we can help foster that by having pyaar for anybody in the Panth jidha vee dhill suchah hovay ... but fundamentally if the leaders do not get their act together then we as ordinary Sangat have to be the agents of change. Financial empowerment is key to this. In the Diaspora we are detached from where the majority of Panth is located. If we are weak financially on an individual level, though that doesn't prevent seva it limits what we can achieve in practical terms. Everybody has their own individual skill set which we can use to advance Sikhi in Chardi Kallah.

rrss = How can attitudes be changed? I was once told by a brother sikh that if I was so interested in preventing genocide in Africa, that I should get a gun and go; that it was none of his business,

UK = Whilst it's true that a non-Amritdhari such as myself is not expected to be brave enough as the Panj Pyaaray were in standing up for the rights of the oppressed, we as a Panth whether Amritdhari, Kesdhari or Sehajdhari have a collective duty towards Sarbat dha Bhalla and whilst I wouldn't voluntarily enlist in the British Army i',m sure the majority of ordinary GurSikhs would gladly enlist for a UN Peacekeeping/Disaster Relief Khalsa Fauj. I truly believe that all Amritdhari and committed Sikhs more generally are willing to do what Medicins Sans Frontieres and UN Peacekeeping Forces do if the correct avenues were there. On a practical level merely picking up a gun and heading to DR Congo would achieve a limited amount. Under the auspices of the UN with a Khalsa regiment future genocides can be stopped once and for all as a fitting memory to our own Panth's repeated sufferings of Ghallugharay. Arguably, an Amritdhari doctor such as yourself can achieve can achieve far more in Medicins Sans Frontieres setting than with a Kalashnikov in hand.

rrss = and a sikh charity I spoke to sounded confused and indeed angrily defended their work when I asked them what they're doing outside punjab/delhi, etc.

UK = Definitely we cannot become like Muslims and only help fellow Muslims as Prophet Muhammad commanded but equally if our own Panth is weak that hurts our ongoing ability to help the World's downtrodden on a greater level, so a degree of balance is needed. Solely focussing all our charitable efforts on Punjab is definitely not what Guru Sahib expects of us.

rrss = I suppose however the urge to help humanity andaro ana chaiyda hun- youth can be brainwashed easily to support many causes, but true sense of righteous duty is given by God to the one who is eager to serve the Guru.

rrss = Also, I posted on another topic as to how a khalsa run aid flotilla (ships and helicopters) can be used to deliver aid, to reach place of conflict and indeed for relaxing slow transport between continents with gurudwara on board, something worth thinking about.

UK = I would love to see your vision become reality. If the concept gains wider acceptance within the Panth then it will come a step closer to happening in our lifetime. VJKK VJKF

Edited by UKLondonSikh
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Koi = Bhai Sahib, while I do not entirely disagree with your notion that "our Bhagats who were completely mukht from duality were incarnated again", I believe you've missed the point: Gurmukh Aaye Jaaye Nisang. Gurmukhs can come and go as they please! You're right, they do not have to come again, they choose to.

UK = I agree with the essence of what you mean to say Koi Paji. I merely disagree that they happened to come back as stated in your previous post. To me it very much devalues the bravery and Bibek Buddhi of our Panj Pyaaray. Furthermore, billions of poor people living in slums exploited by today's Capitalist Mughal fatcats and tens of millions of HIV orphans and billions of malnourished children around the World ... if ever we needed more Gurmukhs the time is now.

Koi = Again bro, I think you've misinterperated my point. I only mentioned the Bhagat Kabir incedent as it is mentioned in Katha of various mahapurash (Sant Isher Singh JI Rara Sahib etc.) and other sources.

UK = Personally Paji i find it hard to reconcile myself to Sants who make such striking presumptions regarding our beloved (Highest of the High) "Authors" (if we can even call them that) of Guru Granth Sahib Ji Maharaj. The truest definition of Mahapursh are our Bhagats.

Koi = As for your "Guru Angad Dev Ji Maharaj had to come back for Amrit", if you believe all Gurus to be one in the same, then they did take amrit in their tenth form (not to mention taking Charan Pahul from Guru nanak Dev Ji, goes without saying).

UK = Absolutely, our Guru Sahib are the same jyot (which includes Kabir Ji Maharaj) ... but that's why I referenced others citing such arguments against us and how offended that would make us feel. By the way I don't believe that Pahul was administered by Guru Nanak Dev Ji in the form history books would literally have us believe but that is a small point in the wider issue.

Koi = Brother, please can you tell me what your take is on the 17 Bhatts being incarnations of the 4 Vedas (4 incarnations per Ved) and Brahma? This is from the Faridkot Steek, Sampardaaee Steek (Ameer Bhandar), Katha of various Mahapursh etc.

UK = In a literal sense of physical reincaranations, I don't believe in it. In a metaphorical sense, yes Bhatt Bani does encapsulate the percentage of truthful essence contained within the Vedas.

UK = Frankly Paji, i have to respectfully say to you that I regard this as an insult of our Sahibzade. Indar was a rapist, was he not?

Koi = I did not say that I endorse this view at all, it was just a point of belief of some Akali Nihangs.

Koi = As far as Indar goes, please could you provide the example?

UK = Thanks for clarifying Paji that you don't endorse the viewpoint of certain Nangs who rely on cannabis as a means of avoiding practical warfare in today's day and age. Regarding Hinduism famous Indar Devta, yes I understand he raped Ahalya - whom Brahma had created as the wife for Gautam Rishi ... so the Nang Niddar type ideology linking Hinduism's famous Indar Devta to the Sahibzade is quite clearly utterly ridiculous.

Koi = Bro, while I respect Chowk Mehta Taksal, please don't assume that I took the reasoning directly from there.

UK = I accept what you say Paji as obviously Chowk Mehta Taksal are not the only jatha that hold the similar view.

Koi = While I have given questions here, I appreciate this may derail the original thread. As such, if UKLondonSikh Ji (or anyone else) would like to continue the discussion in that direction, please can I suggest the opening of a new thread?

UK = Actually Paji, it's all good so long as the discussion is with pyaar it all helps disseminate the OP more widely that Sikhi is not a Punjabi faith so no worries :-)

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On Vasakhi 1699 after the first two Khalsay had stood up ... Guru Gobind Singh Ji (the sixth Khalsa) gave three more calls. Mohkam Chand, a Gujarati calico printer/tailor from DwarkaNagar, Himmat Rai, a water-bearer from Jagannath Puri in Orissa, and Sahib Shah, a barber from Bidar (south India), stood up one after another and advanced to offer their heads.

... a minority of the wider Punjabi community is Sikh ... most Punjabi's are Muslims and there are more Hindi speaking "Punjabi's" in the historic parts of pre-1966 Punjab.

So we as Sikhs need to fight back against this nonsense portraying Sikhs as the equivalent of Punjabi's as they seek to limit the truth to a small part of Punjab only.

Even the Muslim Jatts that killed 300,000 Sikhs in 1947 and the Hindu Jatts like Sajjan Kumar laugh at the ridiculousness of some Sikhs associating an ancestry with their name as a mark of pride given the fact that even the vast majority of Jatts are Muslim and Hindu ...

So again we as Sikhs need to fight against our Panth being associated with any particular ancestry backgrounds (because that's exactly what our enemies want)

So let's be clear anybody in 2012 who proclaims their ancestry background from the rooftops is not a Sikh and Punjabiyat has no relavance to Sikhi. Anybody into Bhangra please tell your favourite artists that you will not buy their records if they continue to promote alcohol + caste on behalf of a Muslim record label like Moviebox.

Sikhi is falsely portrayed by the Panth's enemies and for the record let me state that i think a billion or so Hindu's are generally good people (the 800 million or so Hindu's who live in poverty I consider as Sikh in my eyes anyway ... before someone misinterprets my stab at the Panth's enemies)

great article but i want to add something more which is so true..

1)..Panj pyaaras (most of them were Dalits (scheduled castes) .

2) When sikhi formed .. first of alI it was embraced by lower caste people but ememies of sikhi,,after dasam pitas time... conquered sikhi in their hands and Unha ne hawaa idda di chalaai ke sikhi came into the hands of upper caste hypocrite people for example FUDDU punjabi jatts.

3) when banda bahadur was sent to punjab by Dasam pita from Hazoor sahib..He had a letter (hukumnaama) in his hand written by Dasam pita explaining "ki jado tak main punjab vaapas nai aunda tusi banda bahadur di aguvaai heth reh ke mughala de khilaaf jang jaari rakhni/" .But no one believed on that hukumnaama...As a result Dalits who became sikhs later helped him at great extent.

4) B.R.Ambedhkar (producer of Constitution of India) belonged to Dalit backward (chamar hindu family )..But he clearly stated " Main Beshak hindu pedaa huya but Main hindu rehke maranga nai." He was impressed by the Sikhism . He said he would convert himself into sikhi and most of the dalits would really follow him..As a result He went to amritsar to have Amrit But he was totally refused by Corrupted Jatts/khatri who were in the roop of sikhi..Just because He was chamar...then later he adopted Buddhism. but He did not leave her hope and He used to say Sikhism is a great religion He had seem so far and He always emphasized on saying his community to convert themselves as Sikhs...

5. now Today the mistakes done by those people we are facing them..Inha hi nai Asi aje b nai hatde paye..Asi aje b apniya jadhaa waddan lage huye a....EK oh c jedha apna sab kuch

waar gyaa is jaag to...unhe khalsa sajaaya ke gidhardha to sher ban jaan ,uch neech da turya braminwaad khtam ho jaave...neeve lokaan de sir te b paag a jaave...us bande ne anandpur sahib saare ikathe kar dite c..te aaj jado khalsa sathapna diwas jado aunda hai ta Asi sikh log muh chuk ke anandpur sahib jaan di jagah apne Got(castes/gotras) nu mathaa tekan tur pende a....inha hi nai uthe nishaan sahib chadha dite..guru granth sahib b rakh dite.....hai sanu koi sharam beshak nai.... Sikh ta koi apne aap nu aaj singh ya kaur kenda nai..koi dhillon bani firda va koi sandu, koi johal, koi sidhu, koi bains. bas ahi reh gyi saddi fuddu mat....... Gurudwaare bnaa ditee jaata paataa de adhaar te.......

Edited by sukhi077
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great article but i want to add something more which is so true..

1)..Panj pyaaras (most of them were Dalits (scheduled castes) .

2) When sikhi formed .. first of alI it was embraced by lower caste people but ememies of sikhi,,after dasam pitas time... conquered sikhi in their hands and Unha ne hawaa idda di chalaai ke sikhi came into the hands of upper caste hypocrite people for example FUDDU punjabi jatts.

3) when banda bahadur was sent to punjab by Dasam pita from Hazoor sahib..He had a letter (hukumnaama) in his hand written by Dasam pita explaining "ki jado tak main punjab vaapas nai aunda tusi banda bahadur di aguvaai heth reh ke mughala de khilaaf jang jaari rakhni/" .But no one believed on that hukumnaama...As a result Dalits who became sikhs later helped him at great extent.

4) B.R.Ambedhkar (producer of Constitution of India) belonged to Dalit backward (chamar hindu family )..But he clearly stated " Main Beshak hindu pedaa huya but Main hindu rehke maranga nai." He was impressed by the Sikhism . He said he would convert himself into sikhi and most of the dalits would really follow him..As a result He went to amritsar to have Amrit But he was totally refused by Corrupted Jatts/khatri who were in the roop of sikhi..Just because He was chamar...then later he adopted Buddhism. but He did not leave her hope and He used to say Sikhism is a great religion He had seem so far and He always emphasized on saying his community to convert themselves as Sikhs...

5. now Today the mistakes done by those people we are facing them..Inha hi nai Asi aje b nai hatde paye..Asi aje b apniya jadhaa waddan lage huye a....EK oh c jedha apna sab kuch

waar gyaa is jaag to...unhe khalsa sajaaya ke gidhardha to sher ban jaan ,uch neech da turya braminwaad khtam ho jaave...neeve lokaan de sir te b paag a jaave...us bande ne anandpur sahib saare ikathe kar dite c..te aaj jado khalsa sathapna diwas jado aunda hai ta Asi sikh log muh chuk ke anandpur sahib jaan di jagah apne Got(castes/gotras) nu mathaa tekan tur pende a....inha hi nai uthe nishaan sahib chadha dite..guru granth sahib b rakh dite.....hai sanu koi sharam beshak nai.... Sikh ta koi apne aap nu aaj singh ya kaur kenda nai..koi dhillon bani firda va koi sandu, koi johal, koi sidhu, koi bains. bas ahi reh gyi saddi fuddu mat....... Gurudwaare bnaa ditee jaata paataa de adhaar te.......

UKL = You're absolutely right Paji. The Hindu's and Muslims despise Sikhi and the Khalsa Panth because they can see that the Khalsa Panth is about true equality and brotherhood. Nowhere in the history of India and Pakistan can it be seen that those of oppressed backgrounds made up a majority of the armed forces. To this day the Indian and Pakistani armies are composed of mostly so-called high caste officers with only cannon fodder ranks seeing Dalit or low caste Muslim representation in India and Pakistan respectively.

UKL = I agree with you that anti-Sikh criminals like KPS Gill, General Brar, Dera Sirsa wala Sidhu and the Radha Swami Dhillons all hail from the Jatt tribal identity. But equally we must respect all those mahaan souls whose ancestry was from the Jatt tribal background prior to initiation in the Khalsa Panth. So I think the bottom line is that anyone who sees themselves as a hyphenated Sikh does not have 100% loyalty to the Panth. Jonny101, N30 Paji and Singh559 were all Jatts prior to becoming Amritdhari and I couldn't be more proud of them for abandoning their erstwhile cultural identities in contrast to so many in Punjab who have failed to do so even in 2013.

UKL = You're absolutely right that Baldev Singh and his cohorts influenced the 1940's SRM towards defining a Sikh a certain way so as to deliberately exclude tens of millions of erstwhile non-Punjabi (overwhelmingly Dalit) Hindu brothers and sisters from joining the Sikh Panth at the behest of their Congress and RSS allies.

UKL = Paji jeri Qaum de Gurdware bande ho'ay ne na ... oh Qaum ki karoo ... sab tho paila sanu harek pind te harek ilaqe vich ik saanjha Gurdwara chaida Sangat vasthe ... je assi es kam nu na kar sakke 2021 thaq ... saade RSS dushmana ne sanu East Punjab minority banaa dehnai Delhi di sahaitha naal.

UKL = There is a deliberate reason why the RSS and Congress/BJP are afraid of the population of Punjab having greater knowledge of who Bhai Jiwan Singh Ji were (because all their multiple 115 crore Balmiki Mandirs would collapse under the weight of truth) because only the Panth knows who was the bravest. There is a reason why Congress and Dera Ballan are scared at the mention of Shaheed Baba Sangat Singh Ji and how Dhan Dhan Guru Gobind Singh Ji appointed him commander of the Sikh Fauj against the murderering soldiers from the Islamic Empire because the lie that Dera Ballan propagate is that Chamars cannot be Sikh (whereas the Truth is that only Sikhs are true Ravidasia as we bow before Shabad Guru before Congress and the RSS concocted this rival ghost-written so-called bani and a creed that rejects everything that Dhan Dhan (Gur) Ravidas Ji Maharaj stood for. Everywhere in Sikh history our enemies look they will find esteemed Gursikhs of various backgrounds who all had one thing in common - regardless of their individual family ancestry, none had pride in the such ancestry (as Guru Sahib emphasised "kul nash") and recognised all humanity as one equal family. The minute we ordinary Sikhs start to follow in their footsteps and destroy all apartheid thinking within the community our Qaum will once again be unstoppable in marching towards Sarbat Da Bhala.

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Khalsa Sajna Diwas (Vaisakhi 1699) di lakh lakh vadaiyaan Sangat nu.

But let's re-galvanise our efforts today to address the threats to our Panth which are more insidious than the open hatred for the Sikh Panth shown by Congress in the 1980's.

With the painful history of 1984 and the subsequent Genocide of Sikhs that occurred with UK + USA + USSR + Pakistani support there's nothing we can do to turn back time now.

However, 31 years on what we youth in the West can certainly do is set ourselves aims and objectives as ordinary members of the Sikh Panth to hit the following targets for Panthic upliftment by combatting drugs, alcohol, biraderi, infanticide, illiteracy, cancer and poverty.

All bakhre bakhre Gurdware must be merged as soon as possible to ensure only one United Gurdwara per locality, if we seriously care about the future of our Panth's progression.

UK Sangat to raise £31 million plus by June 2015

Canadian Sangat to C$31 million plus by June 2015

American Sangat to raise $31 million plus by June 2015

And with an eventual target of national Panj Pyare representatives from each country handing over their respective national Sangat's cheques to the SGPC for firewalled projects for Panthic Upliftment in combatting drugs, alcohol, infanticide, biraderi, illiteracy, cancer and poverty

... and every penny of the funds presented to SGPC in June 2015 being watched over by volunteer auditors to confirm that Badal Dal cannot access, use or waste a single penny of the funds raised by Sangat, thereby transforming SGPC into a clean saanjha charitable vehicle for the Upliftment of the Poor and management of United Gurdwara's as it was always intended.

Dhan Dhan Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji Maharaj must be translated into multiple Tamil, Bengali, Oriya, Telugu, Swahili, Yoruba and all African languages etc to get the Truth of what Sikhi represents out there further.

Rather than just remembering the past, we need to actively attack the current silent Genocide occuring via infanticide, drugs, cancer, illiteracy, biraderi and poverty.

Sikhi's driving motto is Sarbat Da Bhala (ensuring the welfare of ALL humanity). That is the central commitment of Sikhi at its most basic. Amritdhari Sikhs are meant to protect all innocent humans globally regardless of their faith. As examples, Khalsa Sikhs should be there to protect: innocent churchgoing Africans from the threat of Ebola, innocent malnourished Hindu orphans in Tamil Nadu and West Bengal, innocent Yazidi girls enslaved and raped by Muslim warriors in Kurdistan, innocent Pakistani children at school in Peshawar who were cruelly killed by the Islamic Sharia Taliban fanatics, as well innocent Tibetan Buddhists brutalised by the evil Chinese regime. That is why it is so important that more and more decent people regardless of if they might currently be sehajdhari initially (including those currently described by the RSS as so-called Hindu's) join the Sikh Panth so that there is a new enlarged and re-instituted Khalsa Fauj to protect the innocent in cases such as the above (and others such as the Rwandan Genocide which such a Khalsa Fauj could have prevented) under the auspices of the UN.

Let's all contact our local Sikh organisations and us as normal Sangat work hard to try spread this agenda like a virus as United we can Stand but Divided we will only Fall.

Edited by SinghSabha1699
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Bump ^ 

Is it just me or does Vaisakhi appear to be viewed as an increasingly irrelevant or inconsequential date to a vast and growing percentage of nominal Sikhs?

And where some within our community are aware of the date they seem to merely correlate it with a Mela concept (or Nagar Kirtan) as opposed to the actual revolution that occurred at Vaisakhi 1699.

Instead of Sikhs becoming a minority in Punjab either by the 2021 census or the 2031 census at the latest, I feel we need to harness Vaisakhi Nagar Kirtans to actively raise funds to address real life issues hurting our Panth the most such as female infanticide, illiteracy, drugs, alcohol, biraderi,cancer and so on.

At the same time it's vital we educate the youth about the background of our Panj Pyare as it seems to me that most Gujarati's, most east Indians and most south Indians have never been told by Sikhs who and from where three of our Panj Pyare were from.

Instead of blindly accepting that we will be a minority in Punjab as is projected by either the 2021 census or the 2031 census we need to look to how a majority of Indians (sehajdhari or kesdhari) can become Sikh via education about Sikhi stands for and how a more demographically strong Sikh Panth can do more sewa for uplifting the billions of suffering poor in India and globally.

Edited by SinghSabha1699
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On 4/18/2013 at 3:31 PM, Koi said:

Bhai Daya Singh Ji - Luv (Son of Bhagwan Ramchandar Ji Maharaj)

Bhai Dharam Singh Ji - Bhagat Dhanna Ji

Bhai Himmat Singh Ji - Phandak (The hunter ("Biyaad") who captured "Chattarbhuj Panchhi Bhagwan")

Bhai Mohkam Singh Ji - Bhagat Namdev Ji

Bhai Sahib Singh Ji - Bhagat Sain Ji

Was this supposed to be sarcastic?

 

 

Are you doubting the avasthaa of Sant Gurbachan Singh Ji Khalsa Bhindraan Wale?

 

Gurbani by atleast 3 of the Bhagats in bold and underlined above exist within Sri Guru Granth Sahib jee, from the time of Guru Arjan Dev when the 1st beerh was scribed.

Meaning, these bhagat were already in sachkhand.

Prove that Bhagats who were already in sachkhand by Dasmesh Jee's time, had to be reborn!

Edited by guruvah
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On 14/04/2015 at 8:12 AM, SinghSabha1699 said:

 

Let's all contact our local Sikh organisations and us as normal Sangat work hard to try spread this agenda like a virus as United we can Stand but Divided we will only Fall.

 

Yet you stated that the taksal openly canvassed for congress votes in the 1980 elections not so long ago. Time and time you were asked to provide any evidence of this apart from hearsay. You didn't provide any info, yet carried on with your same shhit-stirring nonsense.

 

 

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On 18/04/2013 at 8:31 AM, Koi said:

Bhai Daya Singh Ji - Luv (Son of Bhagwan Ramchandar Ji Maharaj)

Bhai Dharam Singh Ji - Bhagat Dhanna Ji

Bhai Himmat Singh Ji - Phandak (The hunter ("Biyaad") who captured "Chattarbhuj Panchhi Bhagwan")

Bhai Mohkam Singh Ji - Bhagat Namdev Ji

Bhai Sahib Singh Ji - Bhagat Sain Ji

 

On 19/04/2013 at 3:42 PM, tuhintuhin said:

waheguru ji....heard this from Giani Thakur Singh ji's katha..........but nobody's gonna believe this here.....they need logical proofs that can satisfy their limited knowledge....

 

Sant gurbachan Singh was not the first to write this. The above re the Panj Pyare was written by Bhai Koer Singh in Gurbilas Patshahi 10 in 1751.

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6 hours ago, chatanga said:

 

Yet you stated that the taksal openly canvassed for congress votes in the 1980 elections not so long ago. Time and time you were asked to provide any evidence of this apart from hearsay. You didn't provide any info, yet carried on with your same shhit-stirring nonsense.

 

 

That's an undeniable fact Chatanga Ji.

Damdami Taksal and your beloved leader Sant Baba Harnam Singh Dhumma Khalsa Bhindranwale did indeed campaign for Congress and Indira Gandhi in the 1980 elections - with disastrous end results for our Qaum thereafter. The majority of the Sikh Panth was with Akali Dal in the 1980 elections - yet Damdami Taksal conspiciously chose to stand with Congress and the likes of Raghunandan Lal Bhatia. How else do you think Sant Baba Harnam Singh Dhumma Khalsa Bhindranwale got his American passport during Congress rule whilst the rest of the Panth was destroyed in the Congress Party Genocide of Sikhs.

6 hours ago, chatanga said:

Bhai Daya Singh Ji - Luv (Son of Bhagwan Ramchandar Ji Maharaj)

Bhai Dharam Singh Ji - Bhagat Dhanna Ji

Bhai Himmat Singh Ji - Phandak (The hunter ("Biyaad") who captured "Chattarbhuj Panchhi Bhagwan")

Bhai Mohkam Singh Ji - Bhagat Namdev Ji

Bhai Sahib Singh Ji - Bhagat Sain Ji

 

Sant gurbachan Singh was not the first to write this. 

So what if Damdami Taksal choose to push the above Hindutva-sponsored mythology about our Panj Piare. The majority of the Panth recognise the above DDT allegation against our Panj Piare as a denigration not only of the Panj Piare but also the highest of high Gurmukhs who authored Gurbani (who were already mukht).

Edited by SinghSabha1699
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5 hours ago, chatanga said:

 

 

Sant gurbachan Singh was not the first to write this. The above re the Panj Pyare was written by Bhai Koer Singh in Gurbilas Patshahi 10 in 1751.

Vaheguru ji Ka Khalsa
Vaheguru ji Ki Fateh ji

I read Bhai ``Himmat Singh Ji - Phandak (The hunter ("Biyaad") who captured "Chattarbhuj Panchhi Bhagwan")``, but who was Phandak/Biyaad?

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2 hours ago, SinghSabha1699 said:

That's an undeniable fact Chatanga Ji.

Damdami Taksal and your beloved leader Sant Baba Harnam Singh Dhumma Khalsa Brindranwale did indeed campaign for Congress and Indira Gandhi in the 1980 elections - with disastrous end results for our Qaum thereafter. The majority of the Sikh Panth was with Akali Dal in the 1980 elections - yet Damdami Taksal conspiciously chose to stand with Congress and the likes of Raghunandan Lal Bhatia. How else do you think Sant Baba Harnam Singh Dhumma Khalsa Brindranwale got his American passport during Congress rule whilst the rest of the Panth was destroyed in the Congress Party Genocide of Sikhs.

So what if Damdami Taksal choose to push the above Hindutva-sponsored mythology about our Panj Piare. The majority of the Panth recognise the above DDT allegation against our Panj Piare as a denigration not only of the Panj Piare but also the highest of high Gurmukhs who authored Gurbani (who were already mukht).

If I remember correctly, Dhumma was a minor player then but one who sold his soul to the authorities along with Jasbir Rode and Dr. Sohan Singh. 

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6 hours ago, chatanga said:

 

 

Sant gurbachan Singh was not the first to write this. The above re the Panj Pyare was written by Bhai Koer Singh in Gurbilas Patshahi 10 in 1751.

Can you provide the exact references as to where this is written in the Gurbilas? 

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Yet again, like the last 10 yrs we're here fighting on cyber space with out keystrokes ! 

come on guys, we need to remember history but not so much that we keep talking about that only ! 

smell the coffee, wake up , lets use the cyber space for good of sikhi lets becomes one  

lets see the challenge that is inevitable if things go like this

1) Sikhs becoming minority ! (because christians come on doordarshan punjabi , preaching in punjabi and "jesus satguru" and langar in churches, at peak viewing hour)

2) RSS attacks our faith with petty remarks that would falter away like melter butter if we just knew basics of our faith and also of their faith (Upanishads are an interesting spiritual read I would recommend to everyone)

3) Drugs is spoiling our name and rep 

4) Apostasy all time high . We need to capture the blitz and fashion industry and carve a niche where full kesadhari is the "new se xy" .pardon my words but our youths are gonna go away if a handsome young dude in hair cut and cool clothes comes up and is portryed as more cool while our pajama type guys are portrayed as buffoons for bollywood. Time for "smart sardaar"

Why can't we have a rule in punjab , that atleast when it comes to fashion advertisements , either in print media, social media, tv or billboards, we need full kesadhari cool looking sikh mundey and kudia . Preaching is not gonna reach to ignorant youth of ours 

5) YoYo Honey Singh and the likes are just ruining our community and our language ! Stop patronizing them ! They fed out of punjab , Punjabi language gave them platform but now they lambast the same language ! 

Edited by AjeetSinghPunjabi
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17 hours ago, SinghSabha1699 said:

That's an undeniable fact Chatanga Ji.

So come on then. Provide the evidence that I have been asking you for for almost 2 years now. Thanks bi'ray.

 

17 hours ago, SinghSabha1699 said:

So what if Damdami Taksal choose to push the above Hindutva-sponsored mythology about our Panj Piare. The majority of the Panth recognise the above DDT allegation against our Panj Piare as a denigration not only of the Panj Piare but also the highest of high Gurmukhs who authored Gurbani (who were already mukht).

 

It wasn't the hindus who wrote Gurbilas 10 and the rest of the sikh historical texts bi'ray, it was Sikhs.

 

There you go with your majority again. What majority? Allegations? Brilliant.

 

 

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14 hours ago, 13Mirch said:

Can you provide the exact references as to where this is written in the Gurbilas? 

Here you go Sir.

 

gurbilas_10_panj_pyare.thumb.JPG.17d49eb1b8311d3e9d75767d9f2d36ba.JPG

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16 hours ago, Preeet said:

Vaheguru ji Ka Khalsa
Vaheguru ji Ki Fateh ji

I read Bhai ``Himmat Singh Ji - Phandak (The hunter ("Biyaad") who captured "Chattarbhuj Panchhi Bhagwan")``, but who was Phandak/Biyaad?

If oim not mistaken he was the one who killed Krishan.

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3 hours ago, chatanga said:

Here you go Sir.

 

gurbilas_10_panj_pyare.thumb.JPG.17d49eb1b8311d3e9d75767d9f2d36ba.JPG

And the fact that mythologizing narratives was an accepted practice then should be enough to dissuade one from thinking that the Panj Piares were some incarnations.

Edited by 13Mirch
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3 hours ago, chatanga said:

If oim not mistaken he was the one who killed Krishan.

Nope, different one. This is the one that captured the Chattarbhuj Panchhi.

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