Four Of The 5 Pyaaray Were Not Punjabi

[gurdeepsinghjohal]

We have limited knowledge.

I doubt if they have even limited knowledge.

[luckysingh99]

We are ALL learners and learning.

But we have to use common sense and basic gurmat to know if we are learning the correct information or not.

The DDT's seem to just pay attention to the jathedar's quotes that they like,or the one's that make them feel food- but they forget that plenty of ridiculous ones were made as well.

I am not speaking with high or low regards for anyone, but Guruji has given us a brain with some basic logic.

Sikhism is mainly about basic logic and was meant to be simple for the simple man, unlike the vedas that only the educated Brahmins were entitled to know

[gurdeepsinghjohal]

Most of the time people write that Guru Gobind Singh Sahib send his sikhs to Dhirmal

for Aad Granth so they can compile another Granth but at the time of establishing of

Khalsa sikhs were ordered to not have any relations with Dhirmalia.

If Guru ji has given an order how could he himself send his sikhs to a man with whom all relations of sikhs has been forbidden.

[Guest dasguruka]

Most of the time people write that Guru Gobind Singh Sahib send his sikhs to Dhirmal

for Aad Granth so they can compile another Granth but at the time of establishing of

Khalsa sikhs were ordered to not have any relations with Dhirmalia.

If Guru ji has given an order how could he himself send his sikhs to a man with whom all relations of sikhs has been forbidden.

Not sure when exactly Guru Ji forbidded Sikhs to have any relations with Dhirmalias, I doubt it was when Khalsa was established. Maybe someone can clairfy the exact date.

[Guest dasguruka]

I don't think its ALL about reason and logic. If that was the point then I would've spent my entire life without taking Amrit and looking for reason and logic behind religons. Its when I stopped doing things on my own and started to accept His Hukam that I was blessed with Amrit. If we could understand everything with logic and reason then we would think that our matt is greater than everything else. I don't think we can consider ourselves dhoor of Guru Ji's charan when we have that manmukh thinking that we can figure everything with our brain. We can definitely understand with logic and reason which is what makes us different from other species and which is why we are entangled by our karmas unlike animals who are just here to go through dukh sukh. Can anyone (using reason and logic) explain what happened to the saroops of 1st and 10th Gurus? There are numerous events in the history of Guru Ghar that can not be explained with just reason and logic because they're beyond our comprehension. I guess everyone is entitled to their beliefs and opinions :D

[luckysingh99]

Not sure when exactly Guru Ji forbidded Sikhs to have any relations with Dhirmalias, I doubt it was when Khalsa was established. Maybe someone can clairfy the exact date.

From 'The Mission Of Guru Nanak' and the 3 phases of khalsa- how sikhi started from 1469.

We did not pay much attention to the two important edicts and traditions given to us by the Guru Gobind Singh Ji. Guru Sahib in 1699, at the time of commencing the Institution of distinctive Khalsa, had declared that the Sanstha (institution) of Masands is hereby abolished for all time to come. Guru Sahib had stated that these Masands had become totally corrupt even in the Guru period. Not only they misappropriated funds meant for the Guru, they browbeat the Sikhs. In addition to Masands Guru Gobind Singh Ji, turned out from the Panth Minas, Ram Raiyas, and Dhirmalias, all those who had been trying to set up Sikhi of their own. Thus Guru Gobind Singh consolidated one Central mainstream or Panth of the Khalsa and stated that henceforth the Daswandh or tithe be handed over directly to the Guru. It clearly meant that after him, the Daswandh, the compulsory levy instituted by Guru Arjan Dev Ji, was to be deposited in the Central Treasury of the Panth. The intellectuals did not apply their mind to this edict and this has been the sole cause of the chaotic condition of the Panth now. Literally thousands of Masands in the form of Babas and others are collecting funds for their personal benefit.

http://www.sikhmarg.com/english/n-mission.html

With regards to reason and logic- there is the critical way of looking at it or the ''dummy's guide'' way.

When I mention reason and logic, I'm talking about NO BLIND faith, where everything explained and done is backed up with logical answers.

This is what I mean by uncomplicated.

I haven't come across anything that I can think of at the moment that does not have a logical reason or explanation behind it.

[gurdeepsinghjohal]

Not sure when exactly Guru Ji forbidded Sikhs to have any relations with Dhirmalias, I doubt it was when Khalsa was established. Maybe someone can clairfy the exact date.

It was forbidden when khalsa was established..

Logic :nono:

Principles and values. :respect:

[UKLondonSikh]

Bhai Daya Singh Ji - Luv (Son of Bhagwan Ramchandar Ji Maharaj)

Bhai Dharam Singh Ji - Bhagat Dhanna Ji

Bhai Himmat Singh Ji - Phandak (The hunter ("Biyaad") who captured "Chattarbhuj Panchhi Bhagwan")

Bhai Mohkam Singh Ji - Bhagat Namdev Ji

Bhai Sahib Singh Ji - Bhagat Sain Ji

Was this supposed to be sarcastic?

Are you doubting the avasthaa of Sant Gurbachan Singh Ji Khalsa Bhindraan Wale?

UK = Koi Paji, i respect your right to your above belief and I don't want to derail this thread away from the original emphasis that all of us Sangat need to propagate more widely the information that Sikhi is not a Punjabi faith but a Universal Truth for Sarbat dha Bhalla.

UK = However, i wanna strongly communicate to you how strongly offended I am that any Sikh let alone Jathedar from Chowk Mehta could be presumptious as to claim that our Bhagats who were completely mukht from duality were incarnated again!? I'm shocked but not angry with you - you're a fellow brother in the Panth and that comes first but I humbly request that you consider the opposite viewpoint which can never imagine our holy Bhagats being incarnated again.

What is happening with the Sikhs of today ???

If sant baba says jump in the ocean and after you see the mermaids, - Guru Nanak Ji will appear. So we all go and do just that !!!??

We have our utmost faith in babaji's statement- regardless of what Guru Nanakji HIMSELF preached ??

UK = I absolutely agree with u Lucky Singh Paji.

And I suppose according to you, along with the Taksaal, the Udasi, Nirmala, Sewapanthi, Akali Nihang Singh Khalsa, Bhai Daya Singh Samparda and all the puraatan Samparda's are also wrong in this belief? Have you heard Khalsa Moolmantar? http://www.sikhnet.com/gurbani/audio/khalsa-mool-mantar

Let us know what you think. Even Bhagat Kabir Ji (with Mata Loi Ji) came back to receive amrit from Dasve Patshah Ji.

UK = Dhan Dhan (Guru) Kabir Ji Maharaj were already amongst the Highest of the High when Guru Nanak Dev Ji Maharaj referred to Kabir Ji Maharaj as one of the Saints the dust beneath whose feet we mere Sikhs are not at the spiritual level. Can you imagine how we would feel if someone said that Guru Angad Dev Ji Maharaj had to come back for Amrit? Honestly Paji, ask yourself deep down.

Bro, it's not about equations. It's about the understanding that the Panj Pyare were not random people, but mahaan Mahapursh who had un-ending kamai from time infinite.

UK = Koi Paji, those with infinite kamai are those that became mukht from duality and merged with The One. I understand your reasoning that by claiming all great Sikhs were Hindu Mahapursh's in previous lives, in your reasoning, gives them extra stature but I would humbly and politely say to you with respect that this detracts from the greatness and maha Bibek Buddhi of our greatest examples from the Panth. No wonder the RSS waaly are delighted when every great figure from the Sikh Panth is interpreted by some like yourself as being Hindu Mahapursh reincarnated.

I'm not sure if the Sahibzade Sahibaans are avtars, though I have heard Brahma, Vishnu, Shiv and Indar, but am not too sure

UK = Frankly Paji, i have to respectfully say to you that I regard this as an insult of our Sahibzade. Inder was a rapist, was he not?

When I was a kid there was talk of the 5 Pyaare being the Pandavas (from Mahabharata) and Guru Sahib being Vasudev Krishan!

A part of me bows in complete reverance to the bachchans of Baba Gurbachan Singh Ji Bhindrawale because...well, to praise them wouldn't even be enough. Then there's the other side of me which says that going by that rationale (i.e. 5 Pyaare were previously gods, etc) that anybody notable - apart from Guru Sahibs - in Sikh history who have achieved greatness hasn't been due to their efforts in overcoming obstacles and transcending their humble beginnings, but they were pre-ordained for greatness because of their previous existence as Hindu gods. Does anyone appreciate the danger in this? It sends out the message that only the divine can achieve anything of note in Sikhi --- the average man who wasn't a powerful god or bhagat in a previous life is basically reduced to scrabbling around searching for spiritual scraps in the hope of becoming somebody, but forever doomed to mediocrity or nothingness because he lacks that divine patronage from high above. Surely this philosophy is in complete opposition to the fundamentals of Sikhi?

Nevertheless, as I said previosuly, I have no problem in believing in such bachchans if they are true. I'm sure there's certain deficiencies in myself that allows such small doubts to enter my mind.

UK = VHS Paji as a neutral yourself in the debate over whether Sri Anandpur Sahib and Vasakhi is more central to what Sikhi is about rather than the historical reasoning given for the construction of our breathtaking GuruGhar at Sri Hemkhunt Sahib ... i am glad you highlighted the dangers of Koi Paji's line of reasoning - which obviously Koi Paji got direct from his reverence for Chowk Mehta Taksal.

UK = However Paji, respectfully, if you believe that something is wrong and illogical - for example, for some to claim that Guru Gobind Singh Ji Maharaj's lifetime outside of the timeframe of 1666-1708 is actually actually relavant or provable (other than the false speculation it is authored by anti-Sikh forces) then I'd strongly urge you not to see deficiences in yourself as a consequence of your believing in Gurmat. Dhan Dhan Baba Deep Singh Ji were the biggest proponents in favour of Gurmat and propagating the "mission" of Guru Granth Sahib Ji Maharaj. No section of the Panth has exclusive rights upon the legacy of Baba Deep Singh Ji Maharaj (though of course I realise that you are not one of those making such a claim).

The Famous jathedar also claimed-

-That ALL the guru's were hindu avatars ???

-Guru Har Rai had 8 wives.

-That Guru Gobind Singh ji had a secret diary

-That you can't wear the colour red

-Then he claimed that the panj pyarey said to Guruji 'that you are honouring us like ramchndar honoured the monkeys'

-the 2 sparrows died fighting after taking amrit that didn't have patassey in it !!1

- Sikhs have long hair so that they can be pulled out of hell !!

......

.....I could go on with this list but there Is no point !

Most of these claims are not about the sikhi that was preached by the 10 gurus and bhagats.

If something is contradictory to Guru Nanak ji's philosophy, then it is clearly not gurmat.

I don't know how educated Sikhs who have access to all gurmat can buy this kind of information !

I know ! :biggrin2: - this is the problem.

Sikhs would rather avoid to learn the gurmat from the ONE true Guru and instead listen to baba shaba preaching

UK = Again Lucky Singh Paji i totally agree with you. The indefensible simply cannot be defended. Unfortunately many of our sincere Gursikh brothers and sisters have bought into the above lines of reasoning and we can only win them over to the pro-Gurmat position via pyaar and logic. Every single thing within Sikhi is 100% logical and every single thing we do should be based on the logical application of Gurmat for Sarbat dha Bhalla. Blind faith is the same pathetic excuse used by the Christians and Muslims for their murder of tens of millions via Slavery and various religious Genocides. Sikhi is a totally different Marg based upon indisputable Truth for the welfare of all (as opposed to blind faith ... for the benefit of a few).

[VanHelsingh]

@ UKLondonSikh Ji - I sometimes wonder whether there is room for logic and reason when following a spiritual path. Logic and reason would argue there's nothing beyond what is immediately apparent to our senses, yet we know there is more out there.

---

On a general note, it's sad to see how someone like Baba Gurbachan Singh Ji is being dismissed out of hand on this thread. I wouldn't presume to know more than them at all. We don't know what they did in terms of intense bhagti for them to reach these conclusions. Despite what I've seen and experienced in my life regarding so-called holy men, I still believe in the great Mahapurashs of the past. I think my brain has been addled by kaljug.

[luckysingh99]

Before we all hijack this thread and take it away from the points made in the OP, I would like to say-

That the OP is a real eye opener and it was for me indeed !!

We just don't realize what the backgrounds of 4 out of the 5 were !!

Whilst we all go on about issues and coming across as anti-hindu at times, it makes us realize that the 5 were not picked at random, but chose to come forward and sacrifice their own lives. The fact that most of them were not even Punjabi should be a little wake up call to all of us.

Sikhi is a universal religion for all of the world out there.

Guru Teg Bahadur ji gave his life in an instance to save the hindus and Kashmiri pandits. The fact is even if they had been Christian or jewish and were suffering the same oppression from the moghuls, then he would still have done the same.

He didn't do it for any religion in particular, but he did it for Humanity and the human rights that we have today.

We should respect all our brothers and sisters from different faiths as fellow humans and respect and entitle their human rights.