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BhaiSukhSingh

Islam Spreading In Britain

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Couple of things

look how islam is taking over our countries, but look how the children of islam have to understand and read the Koran from a young age. I think that is inspiring as we are yet to embrace that.

Part one

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We may have our differences with muslim, but we can appreciate the fact that they make their children into Pakke Muslims from the start. From childhood their children can do Namaaz and also fast. Sadly, we Sikhs have not done the same with our children. Our children can't even do proper Paath even in their late teens.

Muslims have the advantage of the Madrassa. Where ever they go they will always open up madrassaas to insure their children get proper religious training. We have no such facilities in the west. We should open small Taksals in the west. We have such a huge population of Sikhs in the English speaking world, yet we have not even been able to create a single Taksal in the west. It is needed more than ever.

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We may have our differences with muslim, but we can appreciate the fact that they make their children into Pakke Muslims from the start. From childhood their children can do Namaaz and also fast. Sadly, we Sikhs have not done the same with our children. Our children can't even do proper Paath even in their late teens.

Muslims have the advantage of the Madrassa. Where ever they go they will always open up madrassaas to insure their children get proper religious training. We have no such facilities in the west. We should open small Taksals in the west. We have such a huge population of Sikhs in the English speaking world, yet we have not even been able to create a single Taksal in the west. It is needed more than ever.

thats not the answer. most large sikh communities in UK cities have a punjabi school teaching Sikhi stuff. However if parents aren't interested in sending the children there whats the point?

additionally if you open a little taksal to teach children paath and they go home to their father drinking bicardi watching the footy with his mates and mum cooking meat watching bollywood dancing, children are understandably more likely to think their family culture is correct rather than the contradicting stuff they are being taught in a taksal. There is a much deeper rooted difference between the two religions/cultures than what your solution can provide, it may however be part of a larger campaign to tackle the situation.

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thats not the answer. most large sikh communities in UK cities have a punjabi school teaching Sikhi stuff. However if parents aren't interested in sending the children there whats the point?

additionally if you open a little taksal to teach children paath and they go home to their father drinking bicardi watching the footy with his mates and mum cooking meat watching bollywood dancing, children are understandably more likely to think their family culture is correct rather than the contradicting stuff they are being taught in a taksal. There is a much deeper rooted difference between the two religions/cultures than what your solution can provide, it may however be part of a larger campaign to tackle the situation.

opening up taksals is the only solution...small sikh learning centres..where sikhs can learn santhiya of gurbani..sikh philosophy..sikh history ..all from historical sikh granths...we are soo far behind musalman in the knowledge of our own dharam...if this is not sorted out this or next generation..then the gurdwaras we have now will start disappearing one by one

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opening up taksals is the only solution...small sikh learning centres..where sikhs can learn santhiya of gurbani..sikh philosophy..sikh history ..all from historical sikh granths...we are soo far behind musalman in the knowledge of our own dharam...if this is not sorted out this or next generation..then the gurdwaras we have now will start disappearing one by one

I agree. Those little punjabi schools are not good enough. We need real Taksals all over the western world from where we can create our own Gianis, Granthis, Kirtanis instead of importig them from India. Opening up Taksals in the west is the only solution from where Sikhs can get systematic religious knowledge. We spend so much hard earned millions of pounds/dollars creating lavish Gurdwaras in the western world, when in fact we need to create Sikh seminaries/taksals in the west. Sikhs who learn from such Taksals can then go and preach the word of the Gurus in English to the kids born and raised here in the west. This is very badly needed.

Not just in the west, even in India, we need many Taksals all over Punjab. Today we only have a few Taksals in Punjab itself, that is not good enough. We should have hundreds of such Taksals in Punjab alone if we want Sikhism to grow. Sikh awareness will only grow amongst the masses if knowledgeable Gursikhs are imparting systematic Gurmat knowledge all over Punjab through Sikh centers/Taksals. This can solve so many problems we are currently facing such as lessening the influance of kala Afghanis, Fake Gurudom.

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But do you guys know the fact that it is the muslim parents who teach namaaz to their children right from a very young age.

The muslim children as young as two or three years of age can speak verses from the quran which is in arabic.

These children did not learn this from anyone else but their own parents who put so much effort in this.

Can the same be said of Sikh parents. How will the children learn paath and know about our religion?

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Muslims should be praised as whereever they go they do tend to infuse the tennets and beliefs of Islam into their kids. Regardless of how religious a couple are they will in almost all cases send their children to after school classes to learn arabic and the koran. In the UK it is very rare to find a UK born muslim from what ever background who can not read arabic and the koran, and know various prayers by heart. They may not speak arabic in most cases but they can read it to a level required to read prayers. In larger cities with muslim populations a high majority partake in jummah namaz. Even in many work places and schools there will be a seperate prayer room with wudu facilities which nearly all muslims will use on Fridays.

The difference between muslims and Sikhs is that a muslim from even 'irreligious' (for want of a better word), background will go to mosque/ after school madraseh etc. So nearly all muslims will go and learn arabic and the koran, there dads will not follow sunnah and may do things that muslims shouldn't do i.e.drink, eat haram etc. There kids will be there along with kids whose dad will follow sunnah pray namaz 5 a day etc. Whereas with Sikhs more than likely it is only kids of couple who are already religiously inclined that you will find in Sikhi school. Whcih is like one day a week and one day a week is punjabi school. The two are mutually exclusive. Muslims go mosque school 5 days a week and it is arabic/muslim school not punjabi school and then on another day sikhi school . Nearly all muslims go to these schools but theres no waiting lists, need spaces etc. Whereas with us firstly there are from my experience age restrictions and a waiting list. Only in the larger Gurdwareh will you find proper organised teaching with the smaller Gurughars its all levels mixed in one class.

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Another thing is in loads of cities there are Islamic schools which kids attend full time. I know at least 3 in Leicester. Whereas with Sikhs schools to my knowledge only operate in London and Birmingham. More of these are needed. I know there is a Sikh school opening in Leicester next September, it's for primary school aged kids, but theres not much info out there about it, yet. On a personal note I will look into it and send my little gremlins there.

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I don't know where al this talk of 'madrassas' and 'classes in mosques' comes from. Most of my best friends throughout my life have been muslims and not one of them have ever been to classes in mosques or madrassas etc. They know their prayers and they know their faith because their parents taught them at home. As kids we would all ride our bikes outside and when the time came the muslim friends would go home because it was time for the whole family to pray together.

(granted though....this could be a London v up north thing, as most Pakistanis up north seem to be Kashmiri / Mirpuri whearas most of the Pakistanis around this manor are Punjabis just like us)

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WSL your from Osterley, in Hounslow and surrounding areas many muslims do go to mosque schools, as I have seen it. You see loads of young kids in a topi and juba with there koran in a satchel. For muslims it is better for them to pray in congregation than at home, Namaz is only like 10 - 20 mins 30 mins max if it's jummah and they do kuthbah and baienh..So most muslims do go to after school mosque classes to learn. Normally 5 - 6.30, when many parents are at work. Even in London, as I lived there for 6 years you see young muslims kids going to the mosque to have after school classes. Very rarely do muslims teach the kids at home, it's more likely at after school classes in the mosque.

Pakistani's may be the dominant muslim community in the UK, but only less than 15 % are non- kashmiri / mirpuri. Mirpuri is very similar to punjabi, it's just a differnet dialect of Punjabi. Also I only know of 2 places in UK where the majority of muslims in the area are not Pakistani i.e Tower Hamlets, Newham (East London) Bengali and Leicester majority of muslims are of Indian descent. Gujrati / Kutchi. Either from India or Africa (mainly Malawi or surrounding areas). It's a myth that Leicester is not home to a large population of muslims. Everyone thinks it's mainly Gujratis which is true but there loads of people of gujrati and kutchi descent in Leicester who are not hindu but muslim. There are more muslims than Sikhs.

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WSL your from Osterley, in Hounslow and surrounding areas many muslims do go to mosque schools, as I have seen it. You see loads of young kids in a topi and juba with there koran in a satchel. For muslims it is better for them to pray in congregation than at home, Namaz is only like 10 - 20 mins 30 mins max if it's jummah and they do kuthbah and baienh..So most muslims do go to after school mosque classes to learn. Normally 5 - 6.30, when many parents are at work. Even in London, as I lived there for 6 years you see young muslims kids going to the mosque to have after school classes. Very rarely do muslims teach the kids at home, it's more likely at after school classes in the mosque.

Pakistani's may be the dominant muslim community in the UK, but only less than 15 % are non- kashmiri / mirpuri. Mirpuri is very similar to punjabi, it's just a differnet dialect of Punjabi. Also I only know of 2 places in UK where the majority of muslims in the area are not Pakistani i.e Tower Hamlets, Newham (East London) Bengali and Leicester majority of muslims are of Indian descent. Gujrati / Kutchi. Either from India or Africa (mainly Malawi or surrounding areas). It's a myth that Leicester is not home to a large population of muslims. Everyone thinks it's mainly Gujratis which is true but there loads of people of gujrati and kutchi descent in Leicester who are not hindu but muslim. There are more muslims than Sikhs.

Mirpuri my friend maybe a dialect of panjabi, but they are nothing like panjabi mussalmaans. mirpuris are very much like ppl of jammu, and are very backward ppl and have no ambition, straight up, no lie. they dont let their girls wear english clothes, go for decent jobs. look at all the pak tv/radio presenters in this country they r either panjabi/pathan paks, never mirpuri. If this country had 90+% pakistanis from panjab then you would not get all this sikh vs muslim tension and tapping up/grooming of our girls, because every panjabi mussalmaan i ever met are amazing ppl and obviously just like us. for example most pakistanis in canada and scotland are panjabis, yet they have no tension with apnay sikhs in their respective places. only places where panjabi paks live in slightly big numbers are in some places like sheffield, certain parts of manchester too.

also u mentioned indian muslims, in places like blackburn/burnley/preston they have HUGE number of muslim patels living there, blackburn i believe is 50/50 indian/pak muslims or 60/40 ish.

also like to mention indian muslims HATE kashmiri/mirpuri muslims in my experience, as they have tainted the muslim image in this country. even irainians/arabs/turks/afghans HATE these mirpuris. My bangladeshi mate too hates them (1971 raping/genocide of bangalis).

theres a video on youtube where on the commenst page a mirpuri n panjabi paks were cusin each other n the mirpuris were described as the pakistani council estate chavs,

heres the video, see the comments. http://www.youtube.com/all_comments?v=EyhqGqZ0m-8

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Asslam-o-Alaikum and Sat Sri Kal sub nu :biggrin2:

This is my first post here in this forum and I guess being a Muslim , I'd probably represent Islam here..a little bit..

First thing...no Islam is NOT 'taking over' anything. Today, Islam is the LARGEST *practiced* faith on the planet and hence exerts the most influence on the human race.. more than any other religion (Christianity is largest nominal) but propaganda against Islam is also on the highest too.One of them is that Muslims are taking over this world. This is just not true. Every 4th person on the planet is a Muslim now but that doesn't mean that we want to dominate others.

And yes, Muslims generally ARE more practicing than others...but I feel that Sikhs are way,way more practising than us Muslims. Many guys don't eat meat and don't cut their hairs too. Sikh girls though,with due respect,are not that practising,in my observation.

Also , regarding Muslim parents...yes..in Islam..family is very important. Muslim families stick together..we teach each other about Islam..my sister and me would argue over Islam and even do critical analysis of it. Like "why" is this and "why" is that. Our parents teach us Salah or Namaz from our childhood and arrange a Qur'anic teacher for us ...who would teach us Qur'an in Arabic. The thing most of people don't understand is that Muslims aren't 'brainwashed' into believing Islam. We explore rational and logical foundations for our belief. In Schools,back in Pakistan,we were taught doctrines of Islam and in class--we used to just discuss the heck out of different topics..lol...That class used to be the loudest..we'd discuss and ask many questions..counter questions etc...In this way, we have a very good command on our religion (by the standard of 'average' followers of any faith)...

I am hoping for a great time in this forum..

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Vaheguru Ji Ka Khalsa Vaheguru Ji Ki Fateh

Auzer bro, welcome to Sikhsangat.com. Glad to have you on board and we too look forward to having a great time and hope we can learn from each other and clear out any misconceptions that either of our fellow coreligionists might have about each other. However, a humble and sincere request to you is that this forum will NOT be used as a platform to "win converts", (i.e. propagating Islam with the intention to convert Sikhs) which I hope isn't your actual intention to be here. So once again, looking forward to having a great time :) .

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Auzer ji , what do you have to say on this ??

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F49kogA9Jb4

How can such kind of behavior be tolerated in any modern day civilization ? again , not being anti-Islamic here , but what the eyes see can't be false .

Shari'ah is a 7th century backward law only for the desert land and for 7th century . It has no place for 21st century Britain .

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Auzer ji , what do you have to say on this ??

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F49kogA9Jb4

How can such kind of behavior be tolerated in any modern day civilization ? again , not being anti-Islamic here , but what the eyes see can't be false .

Shari'ah is a 7th century backward law only for the desert land and for 7th century . It has no place for 21st century Britain .

thats right...thats the very reason the khalsa wasnt given a law by waheguru ji...yes we have a rehit but that is only for the khalsa and is private in itself...we cannot and dont exert the rehit on non sikhs...which is why when the khalsaa raj comes it will not be hindered by any old laws given to them..rather they will be able to develop and progress in all fields...be it science, millitary, economy etc

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and btw WELCOME AUZER JI !...i hope you we can learn from one another while you are on this forum....and clear up any misconceptions we have...peace

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to a few of the earlier posts recommending opening up small taksal centres -

cant we open up nihang centres and other centres aswell, why such a bias towards taksal and nothing else?

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Auzer ji , what do you have to say on this ??

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F49kogA9Jb4

How can such kind of behavior be tolerated in any modern day civilization ? again , not being anti-Islamic here , but what the eyes see can't be false .

Shari'ah is a 7th century backward law only for the desert land and for 7th century . It has no place for 21st century Britain .

That is a very very small percentage of muslims. Most muslims do not support tht kind of thing.

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That is a very very small percentage of muslims. Most muslims do not support tht kind of thing.

but ive read the quran and most of the hadiths...hes not talking out of his a$$..he has backed all his claims from islamic scripture...could it be hes just preaching authentic martial islam..not the watered dow version...correct me if im wrong

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to a few of the earlier posts recommending opening up small taksal centres -

cant we open up nihang centres and other centres aswell, why such a bias towards taksal and nothing else?

The reason I mentioned Taksal is because of their focus on knowledge/vidyaa aspect of Gurbani/gurmat. That is what we need right now in Punjab and the western world where ever Sikhs reside. I'm not a Taksali myself, so I don't have any particular loyalty towards Taksal, but the concept of a Taksal, a school where one can learn Gurbani/Gurmat is something we need more and more in the west if we want Sikhi to flourish and expand.

We have so many Gatka Akharas in the west, but we also need Taksals.

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That is a very very small percentage of muslims. Most muslims do not support tht kind of thing.

Nazis were considered a 'small' political party in their origin

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Nazis were considered a 'small' political party in their origin

Bro, why create tension?

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Vaheguru Ji Ka Khalsa Vaheguru Ji Ki Fateh

Auzer bro, welcome to Sikhsangat.com. Glad to have you on board and we too look forward to having a great time and hope we can learn from each other and clear out any misconceptions that either of our fellow coreligionists might have about each other. However, a humble and sincere request to you is that this forum will NOT be used as a platform to "win converts", (i.e. propagating Islam with the intention to convert Sikhs) which I hope isn't your actual intention to be here. So once again, looking forward to having a great time :) .

hahaha no paa ji ...mein ksi nu convert kr k ki kar laina? If I become a good man and follow religion and be humble to others..My duty is done. God won't ask me "How many people did you convert" ? :lol:

Auzer ji , what do you have to say on this ??

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F49kogA9Jb4

How can such kind of behavior be tolerated in any modern day civilization ? again , not being anti-Islamic here , but what the eyes see can't be false .

Shari'ah is a 7th century backward law only for the desert land and for 7th century . It has no place for 21st century Britain .

Bro you ask me what is this? I say THIS is the problem !!!!!!!!!!!

This sc*m is interviewed on BBC as a 'representive of Muslim community and Muslim leader' ....W T F ?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!

This guy is an <banned word filter activated>...How many followers he have? mmmmmm probably 50 or so? Out of MILLIONS of Muslims in Britain..this guy has less than 100 followers etc but this guy is presented as the 'Muslim leader' on national media. We have nuts in every religion,culture and race. This Anjem guy does not represent Islam , Muslims in any way , shape or form . Period.

Also , Shari'a law is a huge topic. Laws can't be discussed in isolation..Studying law is a mamoth topic...I won't argue anything here but please don't think that Shari'a Law is what this stupid guy says. Also Muslims already say that Shari'a Law is NOT for Europe because Europe isn't a Muslim culture..If you are really interested bro and see this video ...Hamza Andreas Ztortiz explaining Shari'a and answering questions from Bristish audience..

Now please note that I am NOT , in any way , 'propagating' Shari'a law or saying that America/British should adapt it. NEVER! Just see the link and see that people like Anjem Chaudry does not represent Islam/Muslims and Shari'a law is NOT what extremists say it is.

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Mirpuri my friend maybe a dialect of panjabi, but they are nothing like panjabi mussalmaans. mirpuris are very much like ppl of jammu, and are very backward ppl and have no ambition, straight up, no lie. they dont let their girls wear english clothes, go for decent jobs. look at all the pak tv/radio presenters in this country they r either panjabi/pathan paks, never mirpuri. If this country had 90+% pakistanis from panjab then you would not get all this sikh vs muslim tension and tapping up/grooming of our girls, because every panjabi mussalmaan i ever met are amazing ppl and obviously just like us. for example most pakistanis in canada and scotland are panjabis, yet they have no tension with apnay sikhs in their respective places. only places where panjabi paks live in slightly big numbers are in some places like sheffield, certain parts of manchester

What's wrong with people from Jammu? My family is Punjabi but most were born in Jammu

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Pakistani's may be the dominant muslim community in the UK, but only less than 15 % are non- kashmiri / mirpuri. Mirpuri is very similar to punjabi, it's just a differnet dialect of Punjabi.

Mirpur was historically part of Panjab, but was given to Kashmir in the 1850s when the Raja Gulab Singh bought it form the British. Since then it has been part of Kashmir. Mirpuri, and Bhimber are 2 dialects in this regions of Panjabi language.

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    • You can't really convert you more adopt the principles 
    •   Perfect Guidance from the Bani, on what we should devote,and how should we devote Him, in the form of Artee.   ਨਾਮੁ ਤੇਰੋ ਆਰਤੀ ਮਜਨੁ ਮੁਰਾਰੇ ॥ Naam Thaero Aarathee Majan Muraara Your Name, Lord, is my adoration and cleansing bath   ਹਰਿ ਕੇ ਨਾਮ ਬਿਨੁ ਝੂਠੇ ਸਗਲ ਪਾਸਾਰੇ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥ Har Kae Naam Bin Jhoothae Sagal Paasaarae ||1|| Rehaao || Without the Name of the Lord, all ostentatious displays are useless   ਨਾਮੁ ਤੇਰੋ ਆਸਨੋ ਨਾਮੁ ਤੇਰੋ ਉਰਸਾ ਨਾਮੁ ਤੇਰਾ ਕੇਸਰੋ ਲੇ ਛਿਟਕਾਰੇ ॥ Naam Thaero Aasano Naam Thaero Ourasaa Naam Thaeraa Kaesaro Lae Shhittakaarae || Your Name is my prayer mat, and Your Name is the stone to grind the sandalwood. Your Name is the saffron which I take and sprinkle in offering to You.   ਨਾਮੁ ਤੇਰਾ ਅੰਭੁਲਾ ਨਾਮੁ ਤੇਰੋ ਚੰਦਨੋ ਘਸਿ ਜਪੇ ਨਾਮੁ ਲੇ ਤੁਝਹਿ ਕਉ ਚਾਰੇ ॥੧॥ Naam Thaeraa Anbhulaa Naam Thaero Chandhano Ghas Japae Naam Lae Thujhehi Ko Chaarae ||1|| Your Name is the water, and Your Name is the sandalwood. The chanting of Your Name is the grinding of the sandalwood. I take it and offer all this to You. ||1||   ਨਾਮੁ ਤੇਰਾ ਦੀਵਾ ਨਾਮੁ ਤੇਰੋ ਬਾਤੀ ਨਾਮੁ ਤੇਰੋ ਤੇਲੁ ਲੇ ਮਾਹਿ ਪਸਾਰੇ ॥ Naam Thaeraa Dheevaa Naam Thaero Baathee Naam Thaero Thael Lae Maahi Pasaarae || Your Name is the lamp, and Your Name is the wick. Your Name is the oil I pour into it.   ਨਾਮ ਤੇਰੇ ਕੀ ਜੋਤਿ ਲਗਾਈ ਭਇਓ ਉਜਿਆਰੋ ਭਵਨ ਸਗਲਾਰੇ ॥੨॥ Naam Thaerae Kee Joth Lagaaee Bhaeiou Oujiaaro Bhavan Sagalaarae ||2|| Your Name is the light applied to this lamp, which enlightens and illuminates the entire world. ||2||   ਨਾਮੁ ਤੇਰੋ ਤਾਗਾ ਨਾਮੁ ਫੂਲ ਮਾਲਾ ਭਾਰ ਅਠਾਰਹ ਸਗਲ ਜੂਠਾਰੇ ॥ Naam Thaero Thaagaa Naam Fool Maalaa Bhaar Athaareh Sagal Joothaarae || Your Name is the thread, and Your Name is the garland of flowers. The eighteen loads of vegetation are all too impure to offer to You.   ਤੇਰੋ ਕੀਆ ਤੁਝਹਿ ਕਿਆ ਅਰਪਉ ਨਾਮੁ ਤੇਰਾ ਤੁਹੀ ਚਵਰ ਢੋਲਾਰੇ ॥੩॥ Thaero Keeaa Thujhehi Kiaa Arapo Naam Thaeraa Thuhee Chavar Dtolaarae ||3|| Why should I offer to You, that which You Yourself created? Your Name is the fan, which I wave over You. ||3||   ਦਸ ਅਠਾ ਅਠਸਠੇ ਚਾਰੇ ਖਾਣੀ ਇਹੈ ਵਰਤਣਿ ਹੈ ਸਗਲ ਸੰਸਾਰੇ ॥ Dhas Athaa Athasathae Chaarae Khaanee Eihai Varathan Hai Sagal Sansaarae || The whole world is engrossed in the eighteen Puraanas, the sixty-eight sacred shrines of pilgrimage, and the four sources of creation.   ਕਹੈ ਰਵਿਦਾਸੁ ਨਾਮੁ ਤੇਰੋ ਆਰਤੀ ਸਤਿ ਨਾਮੁ ਹੈ ਹਰਿ ਭੋਗ ਤੁਹਾਰੇ ॥੪॥੩॥ Kehai Ravidhaas Naam Thaero Aarathee Sath Naam Hai Har Bhog Thuhaarae ||4||3|| Says Ravi Daas, Your Name is my Aartee, my lamp-lit worship-service. The True Name, Sat Naam, is the food which I offer to You.   Just amazing...just beautiful... Sat Bani Sat Sree Akal.  
    • Blase means to be indifferent or unconcerned. However, you perceive my writing on Dasam Bani being reintroduced to be both nonchalant (why don't we bring in another French word) but also emotional and angry at the same time. That kind of makes for an oxymoron; contradictory terms.  When attempting to have any genuine and fruitful discussion I have experienced it is helpful to not speculate or make conjecture about the viewpoints of another. If curious or in doubt, just ask; ask with the innocent interest of a child. Other genuine level-headed people will gladly oblige. Fools like myself may otherwise find injury in your guesswork.   Bringing in Samparda Kathavachaks fixes the symptom not the illness. The root problem that will fester and multiply is unaddressed. Is this a strategy for the long term that will bring unity and togetherness in the Panth? No. I have posted an excerpt of my last post on this topic below for your convenience, often my arguments become TL;DR.     Again, conjecture and scorn for a person you genuinely want to have dialogue with may not be useful. Some may misinterpret your heartfelt intentions.   If I'm not mistaken, it was rescinded after just two years!  Here is the difference: When the Sikhs took the jagir from the Mughals, they took it after deliberation, discussion, and the approval of the Sarbat Khalsa Baba Harnam Singh Dhumma has built no such discussion and consensus building into his strategy, not even with the Sant Samaj. Heaps of them condemn his political choices.  Getting the discourse changed to Gurmat is good. But the underlying problems remain unaddressed; problems that do the most to hold the Panth back as outlined in my above post.  The jagir allowed the Sikhs to consolidate different jathas under the leadership of Kapur Singh into the Dal Khalsa. Factions were brought together.  They used the political calm to develop their autonomous power and establish their sovereignty This was political power and control that they were able to grow for the Panth. The jagir was taken away very quickly, but look at what they accomplished in that time. The Khalsa was brought together in unity to fight for our future prosperity.  I highly doubt the SIkhs who had been hunted down by Zakariya Khan suddenly became enthralled by his friendship. They took the jagir in a collective, panthic decision and likely knew they could be double-crossed. But they mustered their forces and were in a stronger position for when it did happen.  In all the major issues of the Panth that I have outlined in my previous posts, Baba Harnam Singh Dhumma has made little headway in ameliorating them.  No political autonomy is established for the Panth. The Indian government regulated the SGPC, the SGPC in turn is run by Badal and the Shiromani Akali Dal (Badal). There is no autonomy or control of the Panth in its own affairs, we are led by the string where the political elite wish to go.  As I stated previously: Baba Harnam Singh Dhumma's strategy gives the Panth no autonomy, no control, and he has not pushed forward the Panth's interests in any worthwhile long-lasting way.