International Sikh Conference Update

[NeverForget84dotcom]

You see, you are also stating Singhs should be prepared for Jung, however this is not a view echoed by the elders, which is partly why the youth are unhappy, anything resulting in someone having to get off their backside and do some 'hathi sewa' is frowned upon by these elders. Thats why the youth said, if one wishes to do sewa we should at the very least support them and their families afterwards. Whats wrong with that?

Daduwal has collected large funds, this is true what he has done with it....who knows. Many are unhappy with him and do not wish to support him therefore a resolution was never going to be passed, Kam Singh should have done his homework but that does not excuse you calling him and the youth 'gang of morons'.

Why don't you contact Kam Singh regarding the pledge, I'm sure the youth will be more than happy to do so.

[pedrorizzo]

ok

[Singhballer]

Daduwal has done satkaar work in Punjab and I commend him for that. But I also think that he is a trouble maker and an uneducated pindu who thinks that starting fights with Sacha Sauda followers is some kind of great panthic work. And its not as if him and his chelay can even do that properly, given that the best they have ever been able to achieve is give as good as they get on a couple of occassions when both sides have waved sticks and thrown bricks at each other for a few hours. If that is your idea of great panthic work, then fair play to you.

He does satkaar work and you just comend him? This is Siri Guru Granth Sahib Ji.. not someones bibi. To stop the beadbi of Guru Sahib is HUGE, it is no small deed. And he and his Jatha have done it numerous times.

An uneducated pindu? A person who spent years at Dam Dami Taksal and later with Sant Hari Singh Ji Randhawe wale learning the different dialects, sikh history and the proper meaning of Gurbani is just an uneducated pindu? nice one man.

Daduwal is doing this for popularity and publicity. He wants to be the new Jarnail Singh Bhindranwale and the Indian Government want him to be too. Hence why they arrested him and then quickly released him, as he suits their purposes, as a radical Sikh, disrupting harmony in Punjab, and destabilising the Sikh Kaum further.

Where is your proof that he is going around and stopping pakhand and beadbi just for publicity and popularity? The Indian Government arrests and releases every Sikh who is working to raise awarness in the panth, its not done to the few. You can look into the last 10 years or the 20 before that. All those people arrested for protesting, what did they do wrong? Nothing, only that they were creating a movement for better rights or liberties. Yet they arrested tens of thousands of people and unlawfuly kept them in jail only to realise them a few days after. Sant Jarnail Singh Ji was only ever arrested once, not numerous arrests and releases.. so there is no comparison on that plane.

Wait.. Punjab right now is a harmonius and peaceful state?<_< Last time I checked Punjab police are still arresting innocent people, still practicing atrocious torture methods and killing people through extra judicial murders (Shaminder Singh Shera - http://www.youtube.c...h?v=DHztKW1YRpY, Police Torture -

).

Last time I checked police brutality is still INSANE in Punjab (Ludhiana 2009 -

)

Last time I checked the leaders of Punjab visit, pray to and allow addmitence into Punjab of anti-Sikh babas even know the Pujab Government knows that they are pakhandis that have talked ill about Sikhi. And on top of that give them huge amounts of funds. ( Ashutosh, Sirsa, Naamdharis)

Last time I checked the killers of Sikhs, those who were resopncible for hundreds of deaths of innocent people walk freely and have the Punjab Government support them legally in the courts. Justice still alludes thousands of Punjabi families for crimes commited by the state in Punjab.

(Sumedh Saini then Super Intendent of Punjab Police - http://blogs.law.har...r-sumedh-saini/ ,

,

)

All those things above are what makes Punjab are harmonious state right? nice one man.

It is no surprise that noone wants to support him. The jathedars dont like him, the politicans dont like him and the heads of all the main jathebandian dont like him.

Why would politicians and the pets of politicians whos corruption and immoral rule Sant Baljit Singh Ji Daduwal wale are speaking out against want to support him? Which main Jathebandian don't like him, and what proof do you have to support that claim?

He is a liability and a dangerous and harmful force for the Sikh kaum.

So fighting to stop beadbi, spreading the message of Sikhi to get people to cease going to Pakhandi deras, organising the upkeep of a handful of Gurdwaras, providing Gurmat learning for children, and speaking out against injustices make him a dangerous and harmful force for the Sikh kaum? nice one man.

And then on National television, they are suggesting that Sikh jathebandian should basically openly support militant activity,

Already refuted your militiant support claim in my earlier post.

[Singhballer]

Double post.

[pedrorizzo]

You dont get I'm saying and you never will.

If you like Daduwal then go ahead and support him but give him money out of your own pocket. Yes there are some extra judicial murders still going on, some police brutality going on and some beadbi still going on, though not even 20% of what was happening in the 80s.

These activities are purely the work of the Indian Government in order to provoke Sikhs into mass rebellion so that they have an excuse to brutally repress us and set us back another 20 years, since we have gained a bit of strength since 84 with the relative peace and had a bit of an opportunity to re-group.

People like Daduwal and other radicals are playing right into their hands by reacting to their provocation and trying to mobilise the panth against the government and their activities.

If you want the Sikh movement to FAIL and for Sikhs to get set back another 20 years, then go ahead and support these people. Go out there and give your shaheedian, weigh the dushts heads in gold and take on the government with your mass rebellion.

You may be surprised at exactly how unprepared you and the rest of the kaum actually are for this kind of activity.

Like I said, you dont get what I am saying and you never will. You will continue to rant and rave, raise slogans and pick fights with people who do not subscribe to your point of view.

If you said to me, that the focus of your movement was:

1. Increase parchaar and increase the number of amritdharis in Punjab

2. Increase education in Sikhi and Sikh history in Schools and villages in Punjab

3. Use peaceful methods ONLY to campaign for satkaar regardless of the provocation

4. Lobby for greater state autonomy in Punjab

5. Lobby for the punjab police to review its methods of control and restraint and riot control

6. Set up a legal panel to fight Sikh cases relating to discrimnation and wearing of kakkars etc

7. Set up funds to promote schools, sports institutions and other facilities that Sikhs can benefit from

If the above were your aims and objectives I would happily agree with you and even join you. However, I will not sit here and let people like yourself lead our kaum into doom... and neither will many others, hence you will find resistance in many sectors of the Sikh community. Many Sikhs, unlike yourself, have learnt the lessons from history and will not make the same kind of mistakes again.

Iv probably wasted my breath on you but it was worth a try.

Nice one, man

[Inqlabi]

You dont get I'm saying and you never will.

If you like Daduwal then go ahead and support him but give him money out of your own pocket. Yes there are some extra judicial murders still going on, some police brutality going on and some beadbi still going on, though not even 20% of what was happening in the 80s.

These activities are purely the work of the Indian Government in order to provoke Sikhs into mass rebellion so that they have an excuse to brutally repress us and set us back another 20 years, since we have gained a bit of strength since 84 with the relative peace and had a bit of an opportunity to re-group.

People like Daduwal and other radicals are playing right into their hands by reacting to their provocation and trying to mobilise the panth against the government and their activities.

If you want the Sikh movement to FAIL and for Sikhs to get set back another 20 years, then go ahead and support these people. Go out there and give your shaheedian, weigh the dushts heads in gold and take on the government with your mass rebellion.

You may be surprised at exactly how unprepared you and the rest of the kaum actually are for this kind of activity.

Like I said, you dont get what I am saying and you never will. You will continue to rant and rave, raise slogans and pick fights with people who do not subscribe to your point of view.

If you said to me, that the focus of your movement was:

1. Increase parchaar and increase the number of amritdharis in Punjab

2. Increase education in Sikhi and Sikh history in Schools and villages in Punjab

3. Use peaceful methods ONLY to campaign for satkaar regardless of the provocation

4. Lobby for greater state autonomy in Punjab

5. Lobby for the punjab police to review its methods of control and restraint and riot control

6. Set up a legal panel to fight Sikh cases relating to discrimnation and wearing of kakkars etc

7. Set up funds to promote schools, sports institutions and other facilities that Sikhs can benefit from

If the above were your aims and objectives I would happily agree with you and even join you. However, I will not sit here and let people like yourself lead our kaum into doom... and neither will many others, hence you will find resistance in many sectors of the Sikh community. Many Sikhs, unlike yourself, have learnt the lessons from history and will not make the same kind of mistakes again.

Iv probably wasted my breath on you but it was worth a try.

Nice one, man

I agree with ur focus points but does that mean we will allow anti Sikh activities ? Show some respect to Baba Baljeet Singh Ji .

He is doing great job by preaching and protecting Faith a real Sant Sipahi unlike u and me who are internet warriors .

Just because of Daduwal types Sacha Sauda and Ashotosh thinks twice before doing any program in Punjab.

[pedrorizzo]

I am not saying that we 'allow' anti sikh activities.

However, we have to be very careful how we tackle issues of beadbi and other anti Sikh activities, especially in this day and age. For example, the consequence of the Singhs shooting the ravidassia guru in Vienna because of his beadbi, led to the ravidassia community making a martyr out of him and taking to the streets. Also it further alienated the chamars from mainstream Sikhi and they tried to project it into a caste issue. Then they went around Hyde Park London with banners saying ban kirpans as they are the lethal weapon of Sikh extremists. They went as far trying to encourage chamars to say that they are ravidassia rather than Sikh on their census forms. The adverts for this are on You tube. This was bad for the sikh kaum.

When referendums, votes, or any other administrative work happens in Punjab, this particular group will now not recognise themselves as Sikhs. This weakens the kaum further.

Whilst Singhs like Daduwal and others like him are very brave and honourable, they have a tendency to walk into situations head first without giving thought to the knock on butterfly effect that takes place.

My point is that I dont have a problem with people tackling beadbi and/or anti-Sikh activities. However you have to give due respect to the reasons why the anti-Sikh activity and beadbi is taking place. If it is taking place to provoke the kaum into rising up and then brutally repressing it, and creating divisions in the panth and weakening the panth, then you have to be very careful how you react to incidents. Alot of thought and care is needed.

Also when we take to the streets with alot of emotion and draw naked kirpans, often we actually get a bit of a beating from the dera followers, who are government sponsored, well organised and have their own trained paramilitary groups. Dera sacha sauda for example is well armed and has its own paramilitary wing and are no slouches when it comes fighting in the streets. Also, we have the police to deal with as well who come down hard on us, like in the ludhiana kand in 2009.

When we face the police and dera followers and get our butts kicked it actually does our own behzti and the police and dera followers end up having less fear and even less respect for us than they had before. If we are going to get heavy handed, we really only should do it when we have thought it through and we know that we can win, rather than just setting ourselves up to fail, like we do on many occassions.

[Singhballer]

If you like Daduwal then go ahead and support him but give him money out of your own pocket.

Baba Baljit Singh Ji and his Jatha are running a few Gurdwaras in the region where Sirsa wala greatly recruits. In those Gurdwaras children are given free education about Sikhi and Gurmukhi. He and his Jatha go place to place doing kirtan or katha and to date thousands of people must have taken amrit through his parchar. Wherever his jatha hears of beadbi they go there and make sure it stops. They have taken the saroops of Siri Guru Granth Sahib Ji from many places where Guru Ji was being utterly disrespected.

Would it not be beneficial to give someone like that funds so the Singhs in his Jatha can take of their families, pay for fuel, continue the seva of Gurdwaras and overall be more succesful in getting people away from pakhandi deras and back into Sikhi? I think it would.

Yes there are some extra judicial murders still going on, some police brutality going on and some beadbi still going on, though not even 20% of what was happening in the 80s.

Sure its less, but it still happens and that means Punjab is not a safe, law abiding and completely civil society. Also there are still THOUSANDS of families who lost family members, were tortured, raped due to actions by the Punjab authorities and have recieved no justice. Thousands of criminal Police and Government officials are living freely in Punjab and the Government protects them and purposely fails to bring them to justice even though the Akali Dal Badal promised they would hunt down every single criminal responcible for crimes against the innocent.

These activities are purely the work of the Indian Government in order to provoke Sikhs into mass rebellion so that they have an excuse to brutally repress us and set us back another 20 years, since we have gained a bit of strength since 84 with the relative peace and had a bit of an opportunity to re-group.

As I wrote above the Punjab Governement is responcible for a lot of the crimes commited against the people during those times and today.

I fail to see the strength we gained. Our "Sikh" leaders like Badal and his Government aren't Sikhs at all. They work against Sikhi by refusing to bring criminals to justice, giving huge amounts of Government funds to Pakhandi deras and continuing to order the Police to use inhumane force and torture against the people of Punjab. All the promises our "Sikh" leadership made in the past 30 years have all been broken.

All the rights Sikhs were protesting for in the Dharam Yudh Morcha have still not be attained. Sikhs are still HIndus as per the Indian Constitution, as you may be aware just a few days ago the Indian Minister for Law rejected the plea from Sikhs to take us out of the Hindu Marriage Act and give us the Anand Marriage Act so that we are not legally Hindus when Sikhs get married in India. We have no identity in India.

Since the 80s Sikhi has dwindled in Punjab. A corrupt SGPC failed horribly to do parchar in Punjab and continues to do so. Pakhandi deras such as Radhaswamis, Sirsa Wala, Ashutosh and countless fake Babas on the village level have flourished in Punjab.

What strength are you seeing that I fail to see?

People like Daduwal and other radicals are playing right into their hands by reacting to their provocation and trying to mobilise the panth against the government and their activities.

Radical? How is he a radical? He has not started any violence with anyone. Show me any proof of where he has initiated a fight wether verbaly or physicaly with anyone.

I have listed above what he does.

If you want the Sikh movement to FAIL and for Sikhs to get set back another 20 years, then go ahead and support these people. Go out there and give your shaheedian, weigh the dushts heads in gold and take on the government with your mass rebellion.

See above.

I don't like the gold idea.

You may be surprised at exactly how unprepared you and the rest of the kaum actually are for this kind of activity.

What kind of activity?

Like I said, you dont get what I am saying and you never will. You will continue to rant and rave, raise slogans and pick fights with people who do not subscribe to your point of view.

Please explain what you're saying. I don't rant and rave, just state facts that I happen to know. I don't pick fights with anyone.

If you said to me, that the focus of your movement was:

1. Increase parchaar and increase the number of amritdharis in Punjab

2. Increase education in Sikhi and Sikh history in Schools and villages in Punjab

3. Use peaceful methods ONLY to campaign for satkaar regardless of the provocation

4. Lobby for greater state autonomy in Punjab

5. Lobby for the punjab police to review its methods of control and restraint and riot control

6. Set up a legal panel to fight Sikh cases relating to discrimnation and wearing of kakkars etc

7. Set up funds to promote schools, sports institutions and other facilities that Sikhs can benefit from

1 and 2 Sant Baljit Singh Ji do with great effort.

3. Let's say someone was holding a bottle of water above Guru Sahib and was ready to pour it on their Saroop. He is not listening to the Singh telling him to move away from Guru Sahib. How can you deal with that without physicaly stopping him? You can't.

Show me any place where Sant Baljit Singh Ji and his jatha used violence to stop beadbi.

4. In The Dharam Yudh Morcha Sikhs were trying to get the Anandpur Resolution passed back in the 70s and 80s. (Anandpur Resolution - http://en.wikipedia....dpur_Resolution) This resolution was about greater autonomy for Punjab. You can read it for yourself the different points. Control over Punjab's waters, to give Punjab control over all Punjabi speaking areas that were given over to Rajasthan, Haryana and Himachal Pardesh, uplifting poor citizens through amendemnts to labour laws, to give approval for industry factories to be built in Punjab etc. You can read it for yourself. Anyway, the Indian Government turned this down.. even the simplest of things such as giving Amritsar the title of a Holy City just as Hardiwar has and giving permission for a broadcasting station that would be funded by the Khalsa Panth so that Gurbani could be listened to all over the world. LOL they didn't accept that either. This resolition was created by the Shiromani Akali Dal and specialy endorsed by Parkash Badal.. the current leader of the government in power and he somehow forgot about this document

I think greater autonomy would be amazing and I'd be the first to support it, but the "Sikh" leadership has chosen to forget about the Anandpur Resolution and the Indian Governement refuses to give Sikhs equal right, recognition of a distint identity, and greater autonomy. I highly doubt that would change in the future unless there is enormous demand from the people of Punjab.

5. K.P.S Gill (Former Director General of Police) and Sumedh Saini (Former Superintendent of Police) have adamantly said countless times the Punjab police did not partake in any kind of illegal detention, abduction, brutality, torture, and extra judicial killings under their command. But we all know they are blatantly lying. Shaheed Bhai Jaswant Singh Khalra uncovered municipal records showing the Punjab Police had illegaly cremated thousands of "unclaimed" and "unidentified" bodies.. he befell the same fate as those he brought to light. Ram Narayan Kumar of The Committee for Coordination on Disappearances in Punjab documented hundreds of human rights violations carried out by the state. The Punjab Police still refuse to recognise they did any of the above mentioned crimes.

These human rights violations were taken all the way to the Supreme Court of India and to the National Human Right Commission but no action has been taken against anyone.

I immensly doubt that a corrupt and inhumane organisation like the Punjab Police would actualy make drastic changes.

6. The SGPC has a Legal and Human Rights wing that has emplyed lawyers that fight cases for Sikhs whos Rehit has been scrutinised in India. SGPC has a budget of around what? Like $200 million if I'm not mistaken.

7. I think we gotta go with priorities first. Yes educate young Sikhs in Sikhi, Gurmukhi, History etc. as Baba Baljit Singh Ji are doing. But should making soccer fields and community weight rooms be more important than providing money to the poverty ridden families who are victims of violence intiated by the Punjab Government. Should we not help them send their children to school, pay for food, pay for a means to earn a living?

If the above were your aims and objectives I would happily agree with you and even join you. However, I will not sit here and let people like yourself lead our kaum into doom... and neither will many others, hence you will find resistance in many sectors of the Sikh community. Many Sikhs, unlike yourself, have learnt the lessons from history and will not make the same kind of mistakes again.

I agree with some of your points and it would be great to have them be a reality. But the fact is you were slandering a person who is actually implementing your points in Punjab. Don't you think a person who is making a difference in Parchar be supported?

You have also failed to provide any proof of Baba Baljit Singh Ji and his Jatha ever initiating violence to stop beadbi or pakhand.

Common man, you can't say that I didn't learn my lessons from history when I provided you with facts in my previous post.

What mistakes will I make again?

Iv probably wasted my breath on you but it was worth a try.

Nice one, man

Naaw, you didn't

[pedrorizzo]

If you look at the video series ghukkiyanwali videos 1-4. You will see the event when Daduwal and his singhs went to stop a 'naam charcha' by members of dera sacha sauda, resulting in full on rioting by both sides: http://www.youtube.com/user/5waje#p/u/8/NBBCGrN5T3M

The video below is a violent incident when Daduwal was arrested and his supporters took to arms in order to confront the police, only to be thwarted by water cannons and a lathi charge:

Now examples such as the ones above where I have demonstrated that Daduwal and his supporters have a propensity to taking the law into their own hands and engaging in violent incidents (admittedly not always because it was their fault), create an image of radical Sikhs.

They are viewed as a liability in Punjab and disruptors of the peace. I have personal information regarding the Sikhi and personal integrity of Daduwal, for which I have no respect for him whatsoever. However, I will keep this to myself, as I do not wish to leak information about his personal life. The thrust of my debate is more geared to his approach and methods with which he uses, regarding panthic work etc. I personally would not give him a penny. He collected plenty of cash on his travels to the UK last time he was here. I am very curious to know what he has done with that before I would even consider giving him more donations or asking any jathebandi to. Just because he came and had a few meeting with the youth and convinced a few people doesnt mean that the entire Sikh kaum is behind him.

If something like this was to work, I would like to see a 'satkar office' put together in punjab with paid staff, all funded and organised by UK jathebandian who can collect and collate information regarding beadbi incidents and ensure that they are dealt with via the relevant channels, including the press and the police. If volonteers such as Daduwal and other sikh organisations wanted to work under the direction of this particular office, then I would say fine. But if you say that we should pay Daduwal directly, then you must be joking. India is a dirty and corrupt country and I do not trust a soul there.

I am a supporter and an advocate of the anandpur sahib resolution. Before 1984, this was the main agenda, aims and objectives of the kaum. After the attack on darbar sahib, the resolution was sidelined and the khalistan agenda was put forward as the main agenda.

Since khalistan was not achieved, I believe that Sikhs now have time to re-group and gain our strength and re-evalutate what our aims and objectives should be, what the main challlenges are and how and to focus on those. With Sikh media and information sharing via the internet, this has become much easier in recent years.

The anandpur sahib resolution has some relevant points but some are now outdated. I believe that the regular incidents of beadbi and anti-Sikhi activity are a way in which the government keep the Sikhs distracted so that we do not have time to plan for the future. Instead we are forced to keep reacting to incidents of beadbi here and there. This is a constant war of attrition, designed to provoke a reaction and keep our focus away from developing a new agenda and a strategy.

I believe that any kind of violent activity regardless of the provocation, unless its immediate self defence, is a waste of time and resources, and a distraction from the things that we need to be focussing on.

Regarding the badals and Punjab government. I agree that they are far from perfect. They are politicians and will change their tune regularly as and when it suits them. However, I do have some sympathy for them. They have to play dirty politics in a dirty country. For them to make any kind of panthic change, they first have to play survivalist politics and retain power at any cost and form alliances with anyone and everyone. Once they have consolidated power, the Sikh Akali party is then in a position from where they can bring about panthic change.

However, with constant attacks from the central government, the congress party, other opponents, and also radical Sikhs, it is difficult for them to settle down, beyond just defending their own seats. If the law and order situation in punjab turns bad, the punjab akali government has to first deal with law and order before it can even think about bringing about other changes.

It is easy to blindly criticise the akalis. That they are traitors, breakers of promises, doing nothing for Sikhi etc. They are probably are some of those things, but I honestly believe that by contributing to the already volatile climate in punjab, we are not helping oursleves or sikhi. Currently Sikhi needs peace in order to floursish.

The grievances that we have need to be dealt with in a calm, peaceful, strategic and intelligent manner.

[NeverForget84dotcom]

pedrorizzo:

You are full of criticism, making a big fuss about how everybody is doing everything wrong. If you have all the answers and the knowledge of how to proceed then feel free to step forward and begin something. You want the youth do make a pledge, setup a fund etc...have you spoken to Kam Singh or are you just here to cry about the negative aspects within our community.

You have a personal information (an agenda even) against Baba Baljit Singh, expose him or get over it, he doesnt have HALF the support that you or any other people make out that he has.

If Sikhs were not 'radical' then our entire history would be different....in fact we would all be Muslims so quit with your lets be law abiding citizens and knock on the doors of India's legal system for answer to our problems.