The Word "Ram Ram" In The Guru Granth Sahib

[MansWisdom]

In some circles it is suggested that 'Shiva' in this shabad is the Hindu deity Shivji. Anyone with an once of knowledge of Sikhism and the compositions of Guru Gobind Singh Ji would know that this is absurd.

This line comes from the shabad by Guru Gobind Singh Ji

O Lord grant me the boon, that I may never deviate from doing a good deed.

That I shall not fear when I go into combat. And with determination I will be victorious.

That I may teach myself this greed alone, to learn only Thy praises.

And when the last days of my life come, I may die in the might of the battlefield.

Guru Ji uses the name 'Shiva', but who is Guru Ji referring to here? Let's take an example. There is a person who lives close by and his name is Raam. Now, why was he named Raam? After whom? Maybe Raam from Guru Granth Sahib Ji, who is Rameeyah, within everything, or maybe he was named Raam after Ram Chandra Ji of Ayodhya?

Or maybe he was named after his uncles-older brother, Raam?

If we take it to be Raam of Sri Ram Chandra Ji of Ayodhya, who was this Raam named after? Maybe it was after the Raam who is unseen and Rameeyah, or maybe he was also named after his Uncle? One would have to say that Raam of Ayodhya is named after the One Raam because the Raam of Ayodhya has some of the qualities of the One almighty Raam.

So Raam of Ayodhya is named after The True Raam!

Who named the deity Brahma?

Maybe his followers named him. Let's say Brahma was named by his followers, but why Brahma? He had some powers no doubt about that, so they must have named him after the creative unseen power, The True Brahm, again because he had some of the qualities of the One almighty Brahm.

So Brahma was named after the unseen True Brahm, that Bhram that created Bhrama.

Now, if your neighbour was named, Akaal, is he the real Akaal, or named after the True Akaal? If someone was to say, "Hey you're Akaal, the Timeless Creator!" well, that would not be the case because we know that the neighbour is not the real Akaal but named after the true Akaal.

What if your neighbour is named Jesus, is that the Jesus Christ of Nazareth? No, he is not Jesus of Nazarath he was named after Jesus of Nazareth, right?

Just as there are billions of people, countless animals, ants, leaves, bees, birds and fish on Earth, in the same way there are countless Raams (who are named after the real unseen Raam) , countless Brahmas (who are named after the real unseen Brahm!), countless Shivas (who are named after the real unseen Shiv!), countless Mohammads , countless Jesus's, realms, galaxies, suns and moons.

Those who say that names like Murarri or Govind refer to Krishan Ji should take note of the following shabad by Guru Gobind Singh Ji :

The Lord created millions of worms (insignificant creatures) like Krishna.

He raised and shaped them; then He wiped them (Krishnas) out and recreated them.

He is extremely profound, fearless, primeval, unique and indestructible.

He is beyond everything and His splendour is eminent and perfect.(6)(96)

He has neither a mental ailment (distress) nor a physical suffering. His entity is fathomless.

His glory is everlasting and His existence is eternal from the beginning.

He is birthless, deathless, casteless and painless.

He is unbreakable, vehement, unpunishable and beyond human control . (7)(97) Sri Dasam Granth Ji.

Let us now take Shiva, who named Shiva, and why was he named Shiva? Named after a virtue? Named after an unseen Power? Named after a relative or a friend?

Being a powerful deity it follows that he was named after an unseen Power, SHIV! So Shiva who many people of different faiths worship, was also named after an unseen Power! An unseen power, known as Shiv.

Guru Sahib Ji always refers to the direct source after whom all others have been named. Those others who were named after the true source are irrelevant . Guru Sahib Ji talks of the true Brahama, the true Raam and the true Shiv. In this shabad Shiva is the True Shiva, the source from which the deity Shivji gets his power from. Guru Ji always goes to the True source.

If you read the shabad below Shivji, the deity, is being referred to along with other deities. The way that Shivji is being referred to here it is unconceivable that in the shabad "Deh Shiva bar mohe.." it is the same Shivji.

Without God's Name, no one cane be saved.

Universal Destroyer who holds the fourteen worlds, how can you flee from Him ?(1) pause.

Ram and Rahim whose names you repeat cannot save you from Him (All death). Brahma, Vishnu, Shiva, the sun and the moon are all subject to death.(1)

The Vedas, the Puranas, the Quran and all faiths call Him infinite.

Indra, Sheshnag and chief of the saints meditated on Him for many ages but could not visualize Him in their minds.(2)

How can He be called black when His form and colour cannot be known.

You can only extricate yourself from the noose of Death when you cling to the feet of the Lord.(3)(2)(1O) Rag Devgandhari By the Tenth Guru

Our bodies are filled with biological cells, countless cells. Everyday cells are born, taken care of, and destroyed. The power of creation, sustenance and death are in our bodies is always present yet we are unaware of it. In the same way there is a Power throughout the Creation, everywhere , Creating, Nourishing and Destroying.

The saints know of this creative, nourishing and destructive Force, Guru Sahib Ji knows of this source that is ever present for the Guru is connected to this source. This source is the Creator himself , the Akaal Purakh who cannot be described. Thus SHIVA the Guru Ji refers to is none other than Akaal Purkkh!

Just as your neighbour Jesus, Muhammad or Ram are irrelevant, to Guru Sahib Ji, Shivji, Brahma, Vishnu are all irrelevant . Guru Ji is connected to the source of everything, and everything is named after the true Creator. Our Guru talks directly of the True Creator.

This is the same argument that can be applied to when Akaal Purkh is referred to as Murari or Govind, Guru Ji always referres to the original primal force.

Please listen to the veechar by the sants I have mentioned in my last post. It will help you increase your understanding...

Also please try to understand this tuk but better yet listen to the veechar imho.

Also there is no difference between the gurus and krishan avatar, ram chandar, raja janak etc.

Har harjan dohi ik he bib bechar kich nah

God and gods lovers(brahmgiani, avtars etc) are 1 comparing them is futile

[Bundha]

The question here is not that Guru Jis are the same as Bhagwan Krishan, the question is whether the Raam in gurbani is refering to Sri Raam Chandra or Akaal Purkh. I think there is a subtle difference between the two.

Har harjan dohi ik he bib bechar kich nah - God and God's lovers/devotees are the same, agreed but it does not follow that Raam of Sri Raam Chandra is being referred to in gurbani, you cannot interchange Akaal Purkh and Raam Chandra in Gurbani. If this is the case then 'Shiv' in - Deh Shiva bar mohe..... could be interpretted as Shivji as he is also a lover of God, but this is not the case . Also if there was no difference then there would have been no need for Guru Gobind Singh Ji to refere to Bhagwan Krishan and Sri Raam Chandra as keets - worms in Dasam bani.

In Akaal Ustat, Guru Ji says that Akaal Purkh made them , brought them back then sent them out again and then "Raam Chandra Krishan ki avataar be anaikh hey." There are millions of avatars like Bhagwan Krishan Ji and Sri Raam Chandra Ji.

Remember the tukh - Sabh tet wadha Satguru Nanak, jin kaal rakhi mayree. If this was not true it would not have been accepted. The tukh says - sabh tay wudha, Guru Nanak Dev Ji is sabh tey wudha.

[MansWisdom]

I am not going to answer your question btw I am not using my maan maat, this is what the brahmgiani's are saying. Mahapursh such as sant jagjeet singh ji, sant isher singh ji are saying this etc.

Find out yourself.. Remember the gian and interpretation of gurbani by brahmgianis is true. It is our maat that can cause problems especially when using translations of the internet that were not translated by gian vadhis

[MansWisdom]

16. Can we contemplate on our own vairaat saroop as well like how krishan maharaj contemplate on his vairaat saroop and how krishan maharaj showed his vairaat saroop to arjan ji -

- Sant ji said, krishan showed huge saroop of Isher(Sargun form of God) in which 7 ethers/sky are consider isher (head), 7 patals are consider his feets, vital force system is consider his nostrils, chand(moon) and sooraj(sun) are considered his eyes. His heart is considered as Vishnu and bhram and shiv are considerd his two hands. All nadis(ocean) are consider his veins and all the mountains are consider his bones and all the nature are considered his praticles(rom).

7. Did the devi/devtae (Krishan Bhagwan etc) attain Sachkhand, if so how, because in Bachitar Natak Guru Ji states they all got lost in maya and that why Guru Ji had to come?

- Sant ji said, krishan maharaj is also avtar of vahiguroo, he is always in sachkhand. Wherever he steps, that place becomes sachkhand.

..

[Bundha]

I thought you said you wasn't going to answer

Bhaji, I am fool......... Who am I to compare mahaan pursh with mahaan pursh, I don't even know myself !

[MansWisdom]

I thought you said you wasn't going to answer

Bhaji, I am fool......... Who am I to compare mahaan pursh with mahaan pursh, I don't even know myself !

I got a little excited had to say something lol. I think sant gurbachan singh ji does arth on some of the tuks and you can compare the difference. But sant isher singh and sant dalel singh maharaj and more brahmgiani say that they were all sachkandis. It is hard for a papi like me to understand gurbani but we need their guidence.

I think n30 is going to ask sant jagjeet questions when they are in toronto. I will ask n30 if they can ask sant jagjeet what the meaning of the tuks of gurbani are. As last time sant jagjeet said that krishan bhagwan, ram etc were sachkandi and were pooran. If they were sachkandis how can you call them a worm. That has to be wrong, lets wait and see what sant jagjeet singh says about this....

[MansWisdom]

Also with maharaj's kirpa I have been given a lot of bachans and sakhis on gurus and other avatars and the jeevans of mahapurakhs. That daas will share eventually, recently I was given hukum to share this, which I posted before but here it is:

Guru nanak dev ji in his past incarnation did bahgti in mani karan in india (I'm not sure if I spelt it write but in that place there are a lot of hot springs there. Also there is a gurdwara there but it is not known for guru nanak's past tap) for 36 Jugs. This has not been discovered yet but will one day....

Guru gobind singh ji did bhagti for 4 jugs at hemkunt sahib and past incarnation was dust daman. Dust daman's satguru was a rishi. Dust Daman ate ice and snow as food. While guru nanak dev ji in his past incarnation ate rehta (stones) as food.

Guru nanak dev ji japped ram ram in samadhi for 36 yugs, in this current jug he combined all the mantars together to get waheguru.

ALSO I HAVE BEEN GIVEN HUKUM TO REVEAL ANOTHER FACT, WHICH IS THIS AGE IS THE LAST. SATJUG WILL NOT HAPPEN AGAIN..... SO GET OUT OF THE GAME OTHERWISE GOD KNOWS WHEN YOU WILL GET A CHANCE TO GET MANUKA JANAM AGIAN. THERE MAY BE A NEW ERA BUT NO AGE AFTER THIS...

Also there are so many sakhi's and facts that are so AMAZING that have been forgotten over time... But hukum nahi he

Also daas has bachans of of sant thakur singh ji which das will reveal over time, they are amazing which I have wrote in a book. But I'm not allowed to tell as they can cause naksaan at this time.

[Bundha]

bhaJi,

Bhagwan Krishan Ji and Sri Raam Chandra Ji were saroops of Akaal Purkh. In four yugs akaal purkh did roop dhaar as Bhavan Avtar in Sata yuga, Sri Raam Chandra in tratra yug, Bhagwan Krishan in dwapra yug and das patshahis in kaal Yuga, so of course they are satch Khand vassi. But there is no doubt about the tukhs of Dasam Bani, and they don't say it just once many times it is said. Dasam bani is very difficult to understand , on one had they were avatars but on the other Guru Ji says there are millions of Kirshans and Raam Chandras, there is however no contradiction here. Guru Ji never contradicts, it is only our understanding.

[MansWisdom]

Yes paji I get what your saying, currently I am writing some questions reagarding these tuks that can be asked to sant jagjeet singh ji. I can't wait to see what the meanings are as I can't believe that gurbani can call the avtars worms? There is so much respect in gurbani for sants like be the dust of the feet of saints. The avatars were already pooran brahmgianis in their last life.. But how can guru ji call them worms if they were sachkandis, I think veechar is needed by a brahmgiani on this.. Hopefully with kirpa sant jagjeet singh will enlighten us on this...

[Bundha]

bhaji, I understand what you are saying, but you must also recognise the saroop of Guru Gobind Singh Ji, Guru Ji was sant sapahi and fearless with it, Guru Ji's bani is so much different then Guru Granth Sahib Ji in many ways. Guru Ji deals with many aspacts of war , chivalry, honour, warrior code and in this mode Guru Ji writes many things that we as ordinaly mortals find hard to comprehend, we regard Guru as dhyawaan, shaant vismaad, and Guru Ji was all these things and much much more but also they dealt with many other aspascts of life. Please visit my little site : www.info-sikh.com