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Do You Have To Be Amritdhari To Wear Kirpan

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kirpaan is generally the last kakaar that one is blessed with...

who told you this?

traditionally the Kara was the last kakkar, but nowadays cos its the easiest to wear most people think its the first.

self-defence is not for the religious only, and sikhs used to wear weapons for almost 100 years before khande ki pahul was first used. everybody has the right to defend themselves but with kirpan there are some obligations that 1 should adhere to.ie be keshadhari and non-alcohol user, but as cisco singh ji has pointed out, a sikh should always learn how to use weapons and his first weapons are his body, then think about using kirpan.

someone has said never use a kirpan in any circumstance, then why bother to wear it? Kirpan even brandished will make someone think again about attacking you.

the rubbish about not eating meat, if you are going to wear kirpan is laughable, if you read history.

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Puran GurSikhs like Bhai Gurdas ji, Bhai Kaniyeha Ji, Bhai NandLal ji didnot get Amrit di Daat from Panj Pyare during Dasam Pitaji's Time. Bcz if They would have got Amrit, There name should have been Bhai Gurdas SInghji, Bhai Kanihaa Singh ji or Bhai Nand Singhji. Nor they wore Kirpans and Shasters.

WHY DIDNOT THEY RECIEVE AMRIT DI DAAT and SHASHTERDHARI????

Bhai Gurdas Ji, newphew of Guru Amar Das Ji, was given charan amrit, gurmantar and other rehats to be practiced every day. He mentions it himself in his Vaars. Second Bhai Gurdas Singh was contemporary of Guru Gobind Singh Ji.

Bhai Nand Lal Ji was given charan amrit as well as is clear from Bhatt Vahis. Charan amrit was changed to Khandi Ki Pahul. Both served the same purpose i.e. going through transformation of life socially, morally, ethically and spiritually. It meant receiving naam gurmantar from the guru and living a disciplined life based on ideals set forth by the Gurus. Since Bhai Nand Lal Ji had taken charan pahul there was no need for him to do it again.

Some historical texts mention him taking khandi ki pahul and his name became Bhai Nand Singh but his previous name stuck. Same happened with Bhai Kanhaeya Ji, Bhai Ram Kuar Ji (Bhai Gurbakhsh Singh), Mata Gujri Ji etc. Rehatnama and Tankhahnama by Bhai Sahib make it clear what the injunctions are. In either case he was guru wala Sikh.

Bhai Kanhaeya Ji took pahul from Guru Tegh Bahadur Ji and did sangat of Guru Gobind Singh Ji. There is no evidence to suggest that a Sikh who had taken pahul from one guru was required to take it again from the next guru. Again, he had received pahul and thus was guru wala. Dr. Trilochan Singh states that Sikhs who had taken charan pahul were not required to take Amrit again but it does not prove they were exempt. They were considered part of Khalsa. Sikhs these day are simply confusing themselves and undermining the importance of Amrit. Nirmalas, Udasis, Nihungs, Akalis etc simply meant one thing in early 18th century: Sikh or Nanakpanthi. Their roles were different but they were part of the same Khalsa brotherhood. No exceptions or exemptions.

One cannot be a Sikh without becoming guru wala. Whether a Sikh took charan pahul prior to 1699 or khanday ki pahul after 1699 did not matter as both went through the same process. However, after 1699 charan pahul was discarded all together and only five beloved ones performed Amrit ceremony. If you have any shred of evidence that any Sikh was exempt from taking Amrit and becoming guru wala or wearing any of the kakkars, please bring it forward.

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I know some nirmal and virkat brahm gianis that have not taken amrit and have merged with akal purakh without taking amrit. Of course amrit is important but it is not the only way....

As it comes down to this main question in life (as everyones aim is or should be this), can you still attain sachkand (merge with waheguru become puran) without kandei ki phaul the anwser is yes...

But 1 of the main reasons in taking amrit is if any sikh falls into hell by chance then he/she will be pulled out by their kes. (There is a sakhi on this where Guru Gobind singh showed someone who was doubting amrit and not keeping hair but I won't mention it now)

Also here is something for everyone to think about:

Who and what is khalsa?

Is becoming khalsa only for sikhs or can others in other religions become khalsa?

Also the points made by bijla singh ji are debatable as some gursikhs in the time of bhai nand lal did take kande ki phaul even if they had taken charan phaul before. But you can debate on whether they did not take amrit because they were pakhe with their religion and did not want to break their way of religion.

Also Mohinder Pal is right that bhai nand lal ji did not take amrit. There is actually a sakhi on this, but I will quickly summarise the points.

Bhai Nand Lal who was of different religion did not take amrit and had the same avasta (spirtual state) as Sant jarnail singh Khalsa bhindrawale of abnasi darshan (seeing waheguru everywhere and was sachkandi already). But the sikhs did not like this and they took him to Guru Gobind singh ji and guru gobind singh told him why you should take amrit about being pulled out of narak(as mentioned above) and bhai nand lal ji said if I fall in hell please grab me by my ears and pull me out lol. The Guru knew bhai nand lal Ji's avasta and didn't look down on him as the guru already knew he was already in liberated(sachkand) and had full kirpa from the guru ji regardless of him taking amrit.

..

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As it comes down to this main question in life (as everyones aim is or should be this), can you still attain sachkand (merge with waheguru become puran) without kandei ki phaul the anwser is yes...

No one can become guru wala without taking Amrit from Panj. Without True Guru no one can attain anything. Gurbani is clear on this and this is the Gurmat way of life.

But 1 of the main reasons in taking amrit is if any sikh falls into hell by chance then he/she will be pulled out by their kes. (There is a sakhi on this where Guru Gobind singh showed someone who was doubting amrit and not keeping hair but I won't mention it now)

Gursikhs are not concerned with heaven or hell. Gursikh life is to carry out the Will of Waheguru and follow Hukam of the Guru. Gursikhs don’t live pure way of life just for the sake of heaven. The sakhi that I have read and the way it is mentioned by sampardas is that Guru Sahib instructed Sikhs to keep hair so that in case they fall in hell, Guru sahib will grab their top knots and pull them out. Again, this is not a proof that can be accepted for your argument and sakhi is ridiculous.

Is becoming khalsa only for sikhs or can others in other religions become khalsa?

This is simply delusional thinking. Definition of Khalsa is very clear in Gurmat and Guru Sahib has given his own image, power and authority to Amritdhari Khalsa. Other religions don’t have the same concept.

But you can debate on whether they did not take amrit because they were pakhe with their religion and did not want to break their way of religion.

Guru Sahib started a distinct path and his aim was to unite the humanity under the same way of life. His entire life, mission and writings prove that he did not approve any other religion or way of life. Gurmat is love and does not believe in forcing others to leave their religion but this does not prove that Bhai Nand Lal Ji was not a Sikh. In fact, he was married to a Sikh woman who was a great influence on him. His own work and writings are ample proof that he was a Sikh. I do not know why you are judging him to be of other religion. Just like Bhai Gurdas Ji shed doubts about 6th Guru, Bhai Nand Lal Ji shed doubts about 10th Guru. Both played the same role.

There is actually a sakhi on this, but I will quickly summarise the points. Bhai Nand Lal who was of different religion did not take amrit and had the same avasta (spirtual state) as Sant jarnail singh Khalsa bhindrawale of abnasi darshan (seeing waheguru everywhere and was sachkandi already).

So the sakhi actually states that his avastha was as same as Sant Ji? Bhatt Vahis state that he took pahul and became a Sikh. What evidence do you have that he did not take Amrit and was a different religion? Again, his own work proves to whom he dedicated his life. Sakhis are not above Gurbani.

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Bijla Singh Ji, Rather than me answering your questions I suggest you go to gurmatveechar.com and listen to the purthan kathas. Especially from sant isher singh ji and the others listed there. Also some of the answers I addressed to your questions can be found by listening to Sant Jagjit Singh Harkowale. You can find the q&a listed on this forum by sunsingh.

By listening I bet you'll be surprised by finding out what khalsa is and who really is khalsa. Also you will discover what the meaning of satguru really is....

"No one can become guru wala without taking Amrit from Panj. Without True Guru no one can attain anything. Gurbani is clear on this and this is the Gurmat way of life."

Let me answer your questions with another question lol

Do you believe that no one was "guru wala" before Guru nanak dev ji took sargun form. Was bhagat kabeer Ji/ raja janak etc khalsa and guru wale? (as they were before guru nanak dev ji took sargun form)

"Gursikhs are not concerned with heaven or hell. Gursikh life is to carry out the Will of Waheguru and follow Hukam of the Guru. Gursikhs don’t live pure way of life just for the sake of heaven. The sakhi that I have read and the way it is mentioned by sampardas is that Guru Sahib instructed Sikhs to keep hair so that in case they fall in hell, Guru sahib will grab their top knots and pull them out. Again, this is not a proof that can be accepted for your argument and sakhi is ridiculous."

Actually there are 18 big naraks and charasi joon is narak as well. The definition of narak is different but it does exist ask a gian kandi he will recall as he can see this if you have doubts. There are many heavens as well but the aim of gursikh is to become lean with waheguru. But what you mention above that gursikhs should follow the hukum of waheguru is true. But that is not the final goal following hukum is required but that is one of the fundamentals needed to self realise. (Look at PJS veer ji posts about sant isher singh on self realisation). But after self realisation the aim of gursikh is to merge with akal purak the final contemplation on self.

Actually the sakhis are not just from standard katha vachiks or so called professors that have katabi gian only. They are actually from self realised souls (brahm gianis), so it would be wise to think before you say they are ridiculous.

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Do you believe that no one was "guru wala" before Guru nanak dev ji took sargun form. Was bhagat kabeer Ji/ raja janak etc khalsa and guru wale? (as they were before guru nanak dev ji took sargun form)

This question has been addressed many times on this forum. I am sure if you do search you will find many topics on it. Bhagats whose bani is enshrined in Guru Granth Sahib were Sikhs of Guru Nanak Sahib Ji and some bhagats lived during the time Guru Amardas Ji was on guruship. Gurbani answers how Janak, Ganika etc obtained mukti.

Actually there are 18 big naraks and charasi joon is narak as well. The definition of narak is different but it does exist ask a gian kandi he will recall as he can see this if you have doubts.

Gurbani doesn’t limit number of hells to 18 but I believe they do exist. My point was that Sikhs are not concerned about them. Whosoever follows Gurbani will never go to heaven or hell. Human birth is part of 84 joonis. Gurbani calls it a rare opportunity not hell.

Sakhis told by Sants are written in Sooraj Parkash, Mahima Parkash etc. Sampardas are not always correct and the sakhi you posted is ridiculous because Gurbani states that only Naam is the savior and no one will be recognized with their religion in court of God. Only deeds count.

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Like I said singh learn from the kathas....

"This question has been addressed many times on this forum. I am sure if you do

search you will find many topics on it. Bhagats whose bani is enshrined in Guru

Granth Sahib were Sikhs of Guru Nanak Sahib Ji and some bhagats lived during the

time Guru Amardas Ji was on guruship. Gurbani answers how Janak, Ganika etc

obtained mukti."

This question also answered in the kathas please listen. Tbh the forum's replies can't be compared to the kathas of brahm gianis

"Gurbani doesn’t limit number of hells to 18 but I believe they do exist. My

point was that Sikhs are not concerned about them. Whosoever follows Gurbani

will never go to heaven or hell. Human birth is part of 84 joonis. Gurbani calls

it a rare opportunity not hell."

Also of course human life is precious but I was talking about being a dog, maggot etc. But another reason is that charci joon is hell is that through these cycles 1 has to die and be born again and again. The pain is equivelent to 1000 scorpion bites when 1 is born and 1 dies hence it is a type of narak.

"ridiculous because Gurbani states that only Naam is the savior and no one will

be recognized with their religion in court of God"

Don't other religions have naam? I assure you hindus have naam so do muslims etc

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Real Purpose of Giving Charanamrit or Khande di Paul was to Activate the Real Amrit in Dasam Dwar(Trikuti).

But i am 100% sure that Akal Cannot be realized unless Chela has the Guidance of Guru(Vaho Vaho Gobind Singh Ape Gur Chela). Bhagat Kabeer's Guru was Guru Ramanand ji, Bhagat Tirloachan' s Guru was kabeer ji, Sukhdev Muni's Guru was Bhagat janak, Bhagat Dhru's and Prahlad's Guru was Narad Muni ji.

They all gave specific Ways to their Chelas to Realize their Souls(Man tu Jot Saroop Hain.Apna Mool Pachan). Also CharanAmrit is the Oldest Maryada since Satyug to turn the Seeker into Disciple(Chela).

After 9th patshahi, This Maryada was changed becuase Guruji must have forseen the future that if the CharanaAmrit maryada is contiued, than All would goto Different Fake Gurus and Take Charanamrit. Also the Main Objective of bringing out Khande di Phaul was to bring all sikhs under one Unity Flag-KHALSA-SINGH which is essential for Future Khalsa Raaj

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Yes very good points mohinder pal Ji. Guru is essential and thanks for clearing up what guru Ji means for everyone :D

Also your last point can be a possible reason why guru ji gave kande di phaul to stop people falling to fakes as well.

But I got to add there may be a lots of fakes but among them are few who are real as well. Like sant Jagjit singh said that you can get nam from the panj pyaree but also a puran brahm giani can give you naam as well. Like in the case of guru ramanand for bhagat kabeer ji, guru ramanand was puran hence could give naam to bhagat kabeer ji.

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Very true Manswisdom,

Apart from Panj Pyare, Khande da Amrit can be taken from Realized Souls(Puran Sant,Mahapursh, Brahmagyanis). Beacuse when 5 pyares were appointed for First time by Guruji, Guru ji made sure that those Panj Payres are Sir Tar Gali Meri Aao wale Gursikhs thats is why those Selected Ones went inside the Tmboo(Tent) and Nobody Knows what happened exactly in the Tent Even THough There was a Blood on Gurujis' Sword.

Please remember that First Guruji gave them AMRIT, and than They gave Amrit to Guruji and Other Gursikhs.

KHALSA MERO SATGUR POORA(Guru ji is Giving Satgurship to the Khalsa, Not just ordinary Sikhs like us who just took Amrit and are wearing Kirpan; but ACTUAL Pure KHALS Gurusiks[Puran SANT,MAHAPursh and Brhamgyanis)

JAB Eh gaye Biprin Ki Reet, Main na Karoon In Ki Parteet. Real meaning of Biprin ki Reet is Following your Own path intead of Gurujis path. All Know what had happened to AJAMAL when his GUru told him Strictly not to go from Inside the City and Shud go from Jungle side. He didnot follow His guru's Teaching and till the emd He Suffered Pain,Poverty. Only NARAYAN NARAYAN Saved him

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Thanks once again mohinder pal ji on expanding on your points.

(Guru ji is Giving Satgurship to the Khalsa, Not just ordinary Sikhs like us who just took Amrit and are wearing Kirpan; but ACTUAL Pure KHALS Gurusiks[Puran SANT,MAHAPursh and Brhamgyanis)

But also I would like to add that I am not khalsa even though I have taken amrit from the panj pyare and wear a kirpan. I heard from a mahapursh that khalsa is only those who have conquered their panj chor and have self realised etc and khalsa can be anyone from any religion due to this. I'm on the path to become khalsa with waheguru's kirpa one day.

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Sakhis told by Sants are written in Sooraj Parkash, Mahima Parkash etc. Sampardas are not always correct and the sakhi you posted is ridiculous because Gurbani states that only Naam is the savior and no one will be recognized with their religion in court of God. Only deeds count.

?

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Guest Khalistan Chahida

i think if you are Sahejdhaari an ready to become Amritdhaari and you are in full rehat,maryada then you should

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Not all kirpan wearers are amritdharis, but all amritdharis wear kirpan.

What I am saying is go ahead, moghals wore kirpaana yet they weren't amritdhari. Shastars aren't exclusive to amritdharis, however kakaars are. If you are just wearing the kakaara to get used to them and are taking amrit soon, then its fine, but if not then no.

So what i'm saying, wear the kirpan but if you dont plan to take amrit than dont see it has a kakaar but just a regular knife.

There is little point carrying a shastar if you dont have the training or knowedge on how to use it...in the case of a knife..your more likely to have it taken off you and having it used on you...You do realise should you stab someone with a shastar and not be able to prove justifiable force or self defecne...your likely to go to jail..Hence if you dont know the weapon and it's limitations, uses, boundaries...dont carry one.
Before you carry shastar learn how to respect the shastar, take up the relevant training. You can even use a reasonably large kara as a shastar doesnt have to be a knife, you can use keys...slyh etc.
I recommend you learn self defence and self preservtion, 1stly why cant you find an alternative safer route home through entries..where you know your more likely to end up in a situation...even if the other way is longer...if it's safer use it.

And you should also listen to what this singh said here. Learning to use the weapons is more important than actually carrying one.

Edited by ShasterSingh

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....

Edited by Singh123456777

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