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kabir86

Jatt? Kathri? What Is All This ?

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Hello....please try to keep your responses respectful and helpful.

SO, I am 23 years old...punjabi, sikh. I live in U.S.A. I was raised here. I don't have punjabi or indian friends...so my understanding about the culture and history of our people is minimal. Recently, I feel for a punjabi girl who was Jatt...she taught me everything about punjab and how things are.....and eventually she was forced to get married to another Jatt.

I want to know why is that our people are discriminate amongst themselves? I never expected our ppl to do this to eachother....why cant we all see eachother as equals and humans??? What shocks me is that Jatt people only marry Jatt even if the religion (sikh) is same.....why do we separate eachother by last names or castes?

WHAT DO YOUNG (16-24) or so, punjabi youth think about this....how long is this going to go on for?

Can someone please share their thoughts about this....

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Guest mehtab1singh

Welcome to Sikhsangat

Please run a search on this forum as this has been discussed several times before (and in vain).

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kabir86, this disease of caste is now taken over youth who find unique ways to justify their crude idiocy...and sadly many who haven't got a clue that they come across as clowns and a**es they come across as when they think sikhi is a khanda tattoo or necklace and being proud of their so called "heritage". These are our brothers and sisters and they disgrace the sacrifice of sikh martyrs. They are developing a small but influential sikh "pop culture" that millions laugh at, yet mislead youth seeking identity are willing to make monkeys of themselves if it seems cool amongst peers.

Speak against caste at every turn without fear. Educate yourself and use your voice in an intelligent manner in the most uncomfortable crowds that think differently. The beauty of sikhi is we are sava lakh with our courage. When you are not afraid to abandon all your friends for your guruji, those friends ironically will turn to you for guidance. Our guruji's demand that we always fight for a community that values equality of humanity.

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You might not want to here this, but it is how people behave.

When you look at how jatts, Khatris, Ksatriya, dalit, etc all live is different for each other, but all are punjabis, with similar values and way of life. When it comes to marriage it's about marrying one family with another and one caste doesn't like the other caste differences. These difference is what causes say jatt look down at dalit. The behavior is seen as low and disgusting and the jatt doesn't want his grand children growing up learning this way of life.

Take Sikhi for example. Even so Sikhi is against caste and discriminating against people, we still have division based on jatha. there is 3ho, DDT jatha, AKJ jatha, Nihang Jatha and all would marry in their own jatha because they have the same values on Sikhi. All follow Sikhi, but they follow their own version of it. The difference they have is what keeps them apart in marriage, but these jathas still have respect for each other, which separates them from the punjabis who is disgusted with the other caste behavior and treat them as lower.

Take this behavior as an example. Some Punjabis have no trouble of their dog or cat licking them on the face as an form of affection. Some and I'll say majority just find this behavior out right disgusting and then associate this behavior to how this individual acts in life. Same goes for white/black/yellow/other brown people, their behavior just disgusts punjabis and they forbid their children from marrying these type of individuals. And don't want their grandchildren picking up these digusting habits.

But then again one caste doesn't behave exactly the same, but people still prefer their own caste because it's highly likely they do have the same values. This is for the person who lives as a punjabi not a Sikh.

For a Sikh, jatha is a factor, but the importance is not as high, where the difference will create that my jatha is higher than your jatha mentality. The acceptance is here on all sides.

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Kabir

Let me give you an answer as per my ability. There was no such practice to marry outside of castes in Punjab even when Sikh Gurus were living. It was common to see people marrying to mighty and rich, even though the bridegrooms were not that good, but no system of marrying outside of caste as per my opinion. I have not seen any historical evidence yet where it became common practice within Sikhs to marry outside of their castes. In all Sikh texts, and also in Mahan Kosh by Kahn Singh Nabha, there is a great details of castes and family backgrounds. I believe this is something modern youth has taken in their hearts that if they marry outside of their castes then it may help to stop prejudice. It will be naive to corner Jatts on this issue because there is no evidence to prove that other castes initiated the custom to marry their daughters outside.

Also Jatts don't give out their women outside of their caste but men are allowed to marry outside of their castes. There are many families within Jatts who are not very strict about marrying within Jatts now a days though. It may have become practice during their dominance period. You have to keep this in mind that Jatts were not always "Zamindaar" ( Landlord) besides few of them. The major part became Zamindaar during Baba Banda Singh Bhadhur's time when he abolished Zamindaari and distributed lands to tillers/peasants of Punjab. Now like any other Zamindaar communities the superiority complex slowly took over like Brahmans/Rajputs/Banias and other "Swarna" castes had in their individual minds for ages. Now with the new Zamindaari ( Land ownership) comes the urge to dominant others who were providing services to them. There is no way to dominate others if you start giving your daughters out of caste... If every Joe & Harry marries your daughters then who you are going to dominate hence no out of caste marriages.

Now, I don't believe that caste has any meaning in spiritual person's life, but most of the Punjabi/Indian population believe in it and this is the reality of this world my friend, so live with it. Khatris also have their own caste system and let me elaborate on that as well. Khukhrain Khatris had tradition to marry within Khukhrains. Sikh Khatris from Rawalpindi carry tradition to marry their daughters to maternal aunts sons which may be a practice not digestible to some of you. The caste system is very complex and it gets more complicated as you start exploring it. If you are a spiritual person then believe in Guru Nanak Dev Ji's words and you will find a good wife do not attach to Maya and let this feeling of hurt go away. Be a true Sikh and live your journey of spiritual life and do not get entangled in worldly love affairs.

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Guest mehtab1singh
There was no such practice to marry outside of castes in Punjab even when Sikh Gurus were living. It was common to see people marrying to mighty and rich, even though the bridegrooms were not that good, but no system of marrying outside of caste as per my opinion. I have not seen any historical evidence yet where it became common practice within Sikhs to marry outside of their castes. In all Sikh texts, and also in Mahan Kosh by Kahn Singh Nabha, there is a great details of castes and family backgrounds.
Back then there were many such practices, including marrying kids at a tender age, including practising Sati. Veer Suraj Singh ji, just because these things were practiced back then is no reason to let them carry on. Also, if people did marry into same castes, it was because of a belief that a girl from a farming family would be able to "fit in" better if married into a farmer family. Today people from every "caste" background are getting degrees in engineering and medical fields, so in today's modern age it is pointless to still hang on to the same old caste system. Moreover, Sikhi strictly forbids it.
I believe this is something modern youth has taken in their hearts that if they marry outside of their castes then it may help to stop prejudice.
You never know veerji!

Not giving one's daughter to another caste, but willing to accept another's daughter, the question arises, isn't someone else daughter their izzat too? I don't want to go into details of how some came to power and dominance as I may not be very well aware of these things, but Gurujee's Hukam for a Sikh is to give daughter ONLY to a Sikh. I don't think any Rehitnama mentions anything about "castes". Once a person is a Gursikh, it shouldn't be a problem, but I suppose it is and it will continue to be.

Now, I don't believe that caste has any meaning in spiritual person's life, but most of the Punjabi/Indian population believe in it and this is the reality of this world my friend, so live with it.
I am sorry to disagree veerji. Thats like saying "Sikhs are cutting their hair, Sikhs are taking drugs, Sikhs are become alcoholics, this is the reality of this world, lets live with it".
The caste system is very complex and it gets more complicated as you start exploring it.
True, which is why Gurujee chose for us to be free from it yet we chose to get stuck in it.
If you are a spiritual person then believe in Guru Nanak Dev Ji's words and you will find a good wife do not attach to Maya and let this feeling of hurt go away. Be a true Sikh and live your journey of spiritual life and do not get entangled in worldly love affairs.
Thats a very beautiful and indirect way of saying what I rather not say :)

Lets admit it Singho and Bibiyo, we are Punjabis and ONLY Punjabis, and NOT Sikhs if we believe in this cancer.

bhul chukk maaf (I mean it this time)

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mehtab1singh Ji,

I have not said anywhere in my post that marrying out of caste is any type of problem. I was sharing my opinion as per reality of the society. I believe that person name Kabir is simply hurt in his love affair and want to justify to his heart that he was right in loving that person. Of course ! lady in question is married and he has no option but to move on. As this is Sikhism related website so I thought of directing him to spiritual path which is the ultimate path. I believe there is no "Rehitnama" which exist to support love marriages for Sikhs as well ? :ph34r:

I do not believe in caste system prejudice but I am also aware of the scientific findings of inbreeding... We should at least not get ourselves involved in inbreeding which can cause lots of troubles for us.

http://www.as.wvu.edu/~kgarbutt/QuantGen/Gen535_2_2004/Inbreeding_Humans.htm

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kabir86, this disease of caste is now taken over youth who find unique ways to justify their crude idiocy...and sadly many who haven't got a clue that they come across as clowns and a**es they come across as when they think sikhi is a khanda tattoo or necklace and being proud of their so called "heritage". These are our brothers and sisters and they disgrace the sacrifice of sikh martyrs. They are developing a small but influential sikh "pop culture" that millions laugh at, yet mislead youth seeking identity are willing to make monkeys of themselves if it seems cool amongst peers.

Speak against caste at every turn without fear. Educate yourself and use your voice in an intelligent manner in the most uncomfortable crowds that think differently. The beauty of sikhi is we are sava lakh with our courage. When you are not afraid to abandon all your friends for your guruji, those friends ironically will turn to you for guidance. Our guruji's demand that we always fight for a community that values equality of humanity.

***********

wow...thank you for that....its so true...it really hurts me. I keep my heart clean and i have seen things that no youth should see...and living in the united states, a country with so much diversity, you would expect us (sikhs) to band together..as we are minorites in a country ran by minorites. WE ARE ALL HUMAN BEINGS..I BLEED THE BLOOD YOU BLEED..I SPEAK IN THE TOUNGE YOU SPEAK...AND I WILL DIE ONE DAY..AS YOU WILL DIE......

I just came from a 1 month back packing trip to india, i have not been there in 20 years..and im only 23....I saw soo much hurtfull things...people who go to the gurdwarra just for show...ppl who treat other humans like lifeless animals....and yet call them self a sikh.

The old way of thinking in caste should NOT be taught to our kids...its wrong....we should teach them to love and respect who ever has a clean and good heart...regardless of creed, race or religion.

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You might not want to here this, but it is how people behave.

When you look at how jatts, Khatris, Ksatriya, dalit, etc all live is different for each other, but all are punjabis, with similar values and way of life. When it comes to marriage it's about marrying one family with another and one caste doesn't like the other caste differences. These difference is what causes say jatt look down at dalit. The behavior is seen as low and disgusting and the jatt doesn't want his grand children growing up learning this way of life.

Take Sikhi for example. Even so Sikhi is against caste and discriminating against people, we still have division based on jatha. there is 3ho, DDT jatha, AKJ jatha, Nihang Jatha and all would marry in their own jatha because they have the same values on Sikhi. All follow Sikhi, but they follow their own version of it. The difference they have is what keeps them apart in marriage, but these jathas still have respect for each other, which separates them from the punjabis who is disgusted with the other caste behavior and treat them as lower.

Take this behavior as an example. Some Punjabis have no trouble of their dog or cat licking them on the face as an form of affection. Some and I'll say majority just find this behavior out right disgusting and then associate this behavior to how this individual acts in life. Same goes for white/black/yellow/other brown people, their behavior just disgusts punjabis and they forbid their children from marrying these type of individuals. And don't want their grandchildren picking up these digusting habits.

But then again one caste doesn't behave exactly the same, but people still prefer their own caste because it's highly likely they do have the same values. This is for the person who lives as a punjabi not a Sikh.

For a Sikh, jatha is a factor, but the importance is not as high, where the difference will create that my jatha is higher than your jatha mentality. The acceptance is here on all sides.

I understand everything you said....but I guess I dont like it..lol. It really is a sad thing that values such as GOOD HEART, STRONG CHARACTER, HONESTY, RESPECT and KINDNESS do not have that much of a impact as your last name or your caste. I think one should follow the values of Sikhi....and those values should be looked at..

I want to thank you for taking the time out to reply..it really helps...I appreciated it.......I just wish punjabi's would not look at caste system as a way of life....it hurts their own children...and it hurts everyone else.

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Kabir

Let me give you an answer as per my ability. There was no such practice to marry outside of castes in Punjab even when Sikh Gurus were living. It was common to see people marrying to mighty and rich, even though the bridegrooms were not that good, but no system of marrying outside of caste as per my opinion. I have not seen any historical evidence yet where it became common practice within Sikhs to marry outside of their castes. In all Sikh texts, and also in Mahan Kosh by Kahn Singh Nabha, there is a great details of castes and family backgrounds. I believe this is something modern youth has taken in their hearts that if they marry outside of their castes then it may help to stop prejudice. It will be naive to corner Jatts on this issue because there is no evidence to prove that other castes initiated the custom to marry their daughters outside.

Also Jatts don't give out their women outside of their caste but men are allowed to marry outside of their castes. There are many families within Jatts who are not very strict about marrying within Jatts now a days though. It may have become practice during their dominance period. You have to keep this in mind that Jatts were not always "Zamindaar" ( Landlord) besides few of them. The major part became Zamindaar during Baba Banda Singh Bhadhur's time when he abolished Zamindaari and distributed lands to tillers/peasants of Punjab. Now like any other Zamindaar communities the superiority complex slowly took over like Brahmans/Rajputs/Banias and other "Swarna" castes had in their individual minds for ages. Now with the new Zamindaari ( Land ownership) comes the urge to dominant others who were providing services to them. There is no way to dominate others if you start giving your daughters out of caste... If every Joe & Harry marries your daughters then who you are going to dominate hence no out of caste marriages.

Now, I don't believe that caste has any meaning in spiritual person's life, but most of the Punjabi/Indian population believe in it and this is the reality of this world my friend, so live with it. Khatris also have their own caste system and let me elaborate on that as well. Khukhrain Khatris had tradition to marry within Khukhrains. Sikh Khatris from Rawalpindi carry tradition to marry their daughters to maternal aunts sons which may be a practice not digestible to some of you. The caste system is very complex and it gets more complicated as you start exploring it. If you are a spiritual person then believe in Guru Nanak Dev Ji's words and you will find a good wife do not attach to Maya and let this feeling of hurt go away. Be a true Sikh and live your journey of spiritual life and do not get entangled in worldly love affairs.

Thank you so much for this response..it was very detailed.....the way I see it...I will live my life in the most ritious manner as I can...I will live like a Sikh not a punjabi...I refuse to believe in dommination of anyone ...or any person from a certain caste...My last name is Chopra..I just found out all the sterotypes associated with that...I bleieve ppl in my "caste" are ignorant just like everyone else.

It is really sad. I have no choice to live with it...but I do have the choice to keep my heart clean from such disgusting views. And why such a hars discrimination amongst our own people? I guess I look at the world in a black and white scale..and try to simplify things.....I cannot in this case...however, it leads me to questions the intentions and nature of humans..its a sad thought.

thank you respectfully

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mehtab1singh Ji,

I have not said anywhere in my post that marrying out of caste is any type of problem. I was sharing my opinion as per reality of the society. I believe that person name Kabir is simply hurt in his love affair and want to justify to his heart that he was right in loving that person. Of course ! lady in question is married and he has no option but to move on. As this is Sikhism related website so I thought of directing him to spiritual path which is the ultimate path. I believe there is no "Rehitnama" which exist to support love marriages for Sikhs as well ? ph34r.gif

I do not believe in caste system prejudice but I am also aware of the scientific findings of inbreeding... We should at least not get ourselves involved in inbreeding which can cause lots of troubles for us.

http://www.as.wvu.ed...ding_Humans.htm

'

Thank you for this comment.....I am not as hurt over the girl as I am over our people.....I forgot about the girl alraedy...its the people I am ashamed to call Sikh. Any person who discriminates against anyone...I refuse to call my brother and sister...My mom used have discriminating views...but she is completely changed.....IF WE STAND UP FOR WHATS RIGHT, RIGHT WILL NEVER FAIL!

I can use all the spirituality anyone can offer...I am young...and do not know too much about our religion or our people.....so anything anyone can help me with..would not be forgoten.

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