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Ravidasi Followers Of Baalan Dera Start A New Faith


apnepart2
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How can Dera condemn when the acts of violence are being done by the dera itself? Number of Ravidasi places of worship had sought police protection as Dera men had made threatening calls to remove Guru Granth Sahib. The major people arrested include memebrs of Punjab BSP. Dera has no right to take bani of Bhagat Ravidas from Guru Granth Sahib as the Granth is the only main source of Bani included in it. If they want to establish seperate faith they should get Bani of Bhagat Ravidas from somewhere else. Why don't they try getting it from Bhagat Ravidas via their Guru? They have no right to take bani from Guru Granth Sahib on the pretext that its author was Chamaar. That is direct attack on Sikhi. If you dont want to follow rehat of Sikhs then how can you take their Bani and form another faith from it? Get your own Bani not from Guru Granth Sahib.

Sahib ji, Dera doesn't instigate anybody to commit violence. When some unrest happens, for example when sikhs also commit act of violence in punjab and that is very often happening, we can't blame that violence on gurus or on teachings of gurus. People have their own brains.

When unrest like the one happened, all the people who feel discriminated, whether they are weavers, chamars, valmikis etc., react. In fact, you would be surprised to know, dera followers are the most docile. But since dera is in news and violence happens, so dera's name is there.

As far as taking bani out of GGS is concerned, GGS is a compilation. if Guru Nanak took it from somewhere than why won't us. Ownership questions doesn't exist because Guru Ravidass wrote it. Nobody has ownership of compilation. Everybody has ownership of their own content.

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You are forgetting you are on a Sikh forum and casting doubt on Guru Nanak is mischief that cannot be forgiven. As for your claims on ownership of Bani can you provide where does the bani of Bhagats of Guru Granth Sahib exists elsewhere? All Bani in SGGS, regardless the author, is ONE NIRANKAR GODS BANI and anybody taking it out from SGGS is asking for *. Sikhs cannot allow any Dera to take Bani out of SGGS, Bani of Bhagat Ravidas in Guru Granth Sahib never existed elsewhere so obviously the ownership rests with Sikhs as a whole. You cannot take Bani of Sikhs and form another religious book on base of it. If Bhagats Bani in SGGS existed as a Granth during his lifetime and he had a faithful following centered around it, then you are welcome to go ahead. But the Bani of all Bhagats in SGGS is found in SGGS only, and how it got in SGGS is known to Gurus and Bhagats, who chose to remain their Bani in SGGS only. As you type, one of your sant associated with Dera has rejected the move to take Bani from Guru Granth Sahib and forming a granth.

What if kabir panthis come and ask you to give back Satguru Kabir's bani

All Bani of SGGS is not found elsewhere. Everything originates from SGGS. All writings outside SGGS are regarded by Sikhs as 'kachi bani' and Sikhs dont care what is done with it.

As far as taking bani out of GGS is concerned, GGS is a compilation.

You are on Sikh forum and are talking about our living father. So behave yourself.

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BiggChann Ji:

Jai Gurudev:

I can understand your feelings because you revere GGS as a living guru but we never did and would never and this was the point of conflict. This is not to imply that we disrespect it in any manner. We believed in bani rather than the medium it is written on and we allowed both mona or anybody else to read it. Off couse GGS being a holy book has its inherent respect but we didn't believe in the rituals of airconditioning it, making it go to sleep, wake it up, providing it heat in winter specifically etc. If sikhs do it than that's fine, we have no issue with it. If GGS is a shared granth than one group can't enforce their mariada on everybody since sharing inherently implies that it is respected and worshipped equally by all. We addressed Ravidass as Guru and sikhs didn't like it so it is better to take own route.

If I take your analogy of cutting the limbs than how many limbs Guru Nanak Dev Ji cut. Satguru Naamdev, Satguru Sain, Baba Sheikh Farid, Bhagat Rama Nand were all senior to Guru Nanak Dev ji and obviously weren't alive when Guru nanak took their bani and included in GGS. How did he ask them? Moreover, GGS is a compiled Granth and Guru nanak Dev or Sikhs, I am afrain to say, don't get ownership of Guru ravidass Bani or other bani of other's saints. What if kabir panthis come and ask you to give back Satguru Kabir's bani? So analogy of yours, I am sorry to say is more based on your personal feelings.

You may argue that it is living but then again, it is not for us. For us Ravidassias it has been used as a reason to murder innocent ravidassias right in its front. Now which living guru would allow that...? Where was the living guru when innocent worshippers were stabbed in Vienna or a child's throat was almost slashed with gatra sahib ji and held at ransom. You may talk about beadbi but true living guru would never allow cold blooded murder of anybody. That is not the job of a guru but that is the job of a blood thirty monster. Living guru forgives and leaves it up to almighty to take care of things.

Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa

Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh

harjits4, as I pointed out earlier, it is likely a good move that Dera Ballan take their own path as clearly they were disrespecting Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji Maharaj. Although it is strange that they want to now wish to disregard the same Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji that they have used for years to amass their wealth and following. Thankfully, they do not speak for the Ravidass community at large and it appears from some reports that not for all their followers either.

Also as pointed out in another post, the bani of the Bhagats you have named is unique to Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji. Not cut and paste as your Dera Ballan intend too.

In respect of violence, I do not know exactly what took place in Vienna although I am aware that Dera Ballan leaders have continuously disrespected Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji dispite requests to refrain from doing so. Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji was and never has been used as a reason to murder and being as you are on a Sikh forum, I would suggest you control your fingers when you type such things. Apart from hearing abour Ramanand, I was not at Vienna nor have I heard anything about the 'allegations' you are making. However you seem to overlook that your own Dera Ballan followers didn't seem to have any problem whilst commiting violence, rioting and looting as well as burning the same Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji that contains the bani of Bhagat Ravidass. It is evidence of 'hatred' rather than disrespecting 'rituals'. I would suggest that blame falls squarely on the Dera Ballans leaders.

It is clear that you are only this forum to stir up conflict.

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THE ESSENCE OF THE ENTIRE THREAD IS THAT WE NEED TO SAFEGUARD OUR RELIGION FROM THE EVILS OF CASTEISM AT EVERY COST.

LET THERE BE GURUDWARAS AND NOT ABC-GURUDWARAS, BCE-GURUDWARAS WHICH ARE RECOGNIZED BY CASTE.

LET SIKHS DO NOT FORM FRIEND, FAMILY RELATIONSHIP ON THE BASIS OF CASTE.

THIS WAY WE WOULD BE ABLE TO SAVE AND TURN MINORITY INTO MAJORITY RELIGION. I WISH ONE DAY INDIA WILL BE 98% SIKHS :L:

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You are forgetting you are on a Sikh forum and casting doubt on Guru Nanak is mischief that cannot be forgiven. As for your claims on ownership of Bani can you provide where does the bani of Bhagats of Guru Granth Sahib exists elsewhere? All Bani in SGGS, regardless the author, is ONE NIRANKAR GODS BANI and anybody taking it out from SGGS is asking for *. Sikhs cannot allow any Dera to take Bani out of SGGS, Bani of Bhagat Ravidas in Guru Granth Sahib never existed elsewhere so obviously the ownership rests with Sikhs as a whole. You cannot take Bani of Sikhs and form another religious book on base of it. If Bhagats Bani in SGGS existed as a Granth during his lifetime and he had a faithful following centered around it, then you are welcome to go ahead. But the Bani of all Bhagats in SGGS is found in SGGS only, and how it got in SGGS is known to Gurus and Bhagats, who chose to remain their Bani in SGGS only. As you type, one of your sant associated with Dera has rejected the move to take Bani from Guru Granth Sahib and forming a granth.

What if kabir panthis come and ask you to give back Satguru Kabir's bani

All Bani of SGGS is not found elsewhere. Everything originates from SGGS. All writings outside SGGS are regarded by Sikhs as 'kachi bani' and Sikhs dont care what is done with it.

As far as taking bani out of GGS is concerned, GGS is a compilation.

You are on Sikh forum and are talking about our living father. So behave yourself.

apnepart2,

Come on, I not calling Guru Nanak a mischief. He added Guru Ravidass's bani as a mark of utmost respect for Guru Ravidass Ji. I was only responding to analogy drawn ealier of taking out bani equivalent to cutting limbs. That is the only reason, I commented, if you consider it equivalent to cutting limbs than how many limbs Guru nanak cut ?

Also Guru Ravidass Bani, which is in GGS is also existing in various manuscripts which predate GGS and that's where the bani in the new granth has been added from. So this claim that bani is being taken out is not valid. There is no legal implication anyway, even if it is taken out.

Also Satguru Kabir's whole of bani in GGS exists in Kabirpanthi granth Kabir Bijak, which predates GGS. So, not mine but from your analogy, Guru Nanak committed a blasphemy. Now you and I know it is not true but when rationale presented by you is such than why counter is also true?

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BiggChann Ji:

Jai Gurudev:

I can understand your feelings because you revere GGS as a living guru but we never did and would never and this was the point of conflict. This is not to imply that we disrespect it in any manner. We believed in bani rather than the medium it is written on and we allowed both mona or anybody else to read it. Off couse GGS being a holy book has its inherent respect but we didn't believe in the rituals of airconditioning it, making it go to sleep, wake it up, providing it heat in winter specifically etc. If sikhs do it than that's fine, we have no issue with it. If GGS is a shared granth than one group can't enforce their mariada on everybody since sharing inherently implies that it is respected and worshipped equally by all. We addressed Ravidass as Guru and sikhs didn't like it so it is better to take own route.

If I take your analogy of cutting the limbs than how many limbs Guru Nanak Dev Ji cut. Satguru Naamdev, Satguru Sain, Baba Sheikh Farid, Bhagat Rama Nand were all senior to Guru Nanak Dev ji and obviously weren't alive when Guru nanak took their bani and included in GGS. How did he ask them? Moreover, GGS is a compiled Granth and Guru nanak Dev or Sikhs, I am afrain to say, don't get ownership of Guru ravidass Bani or other bani of other's saints. What if kabir panthis come and ask you to give back Satguru Kabir's bani? So analogy of yours, I am sorry to say is more based on your personal feelings.

You may argue that it is living but then again, it is not for us. For us Ravidassias it has been used as a reason to murder innocent ravidassias right in its front. Now which living guru would allow that...? Where was the living guru when innocent worshippers were stabbed in Vienna or a child's throat was almost slashed with gatra sahib ji and held at ransom. You may talk about beadbi but true living guru would never allow cold blooded murder of anybody. That is not the job of a guru but that is the job of a blood thirty monster. Living guru forgives and leaves it up to almighty to take care of things.

Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa

Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh

harjits4, as I pointed out earlier, it is likely a good move that Dera Ballan take their own path as clearly they were disrespecting Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji Maharaj. Although it is strange that they want to now wish to disregard the same Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji that they have used for years to amass their wealth and following. Thankfully, they do not speak for the Ravidass community at large and it appears from some reports that not for all their followers either.

Also as pointed out in another post, the bani of the Bhagats you have named is unique to Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji. Not cut and paste as your Dera Ballan intend too.

In respect of violence, I do not know exactly what took place in Vienna although I am aware that Dera Ballan leaders have continuously disrespected Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji dispite requests to refrain from doing so. Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji was and never has been used as a reason to murder and being as you are on a Sikh forum, I would suggest you control your fingers when you type such things. Apart from hearing abour Ramanand, I was not at Vienna nor have I heard anything about the 'allegations' you are making. However you seem to overlook that your own Dera Ballan followers didn't seem to have any problem whilst commiting violence, rioting and looting as well as burning the same Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji that contains the bani of Bhagat Ravidass. It is evidence of 'hatred' rather than disrespecting 'rituals'. I would suggest that blame falls squarely on the Dera Ballans leaders.

It is clear that you are only this forum to stir up conflict.

BigChann,

Jai Gurudev !

if you think I am stirring up conflict than it is not true. What conflict I could stir up...? It's only bloody computer.

By the way based on you notions of disrespect etc..let me ask couple questions and everybody may respond in their own way..

Q. 1.

a. Do you follow bani in SGGS as living guru (bani guru guru hai bani) ?

b. Or do you follow 1430 pages of the GGS as living guru (not what is written on it)?

Q.2

a. Do you follow what is written in GGS in 1604 as a guidance for Sikhs ?

b. or do you follow Sikh Mariada written in 1920s...?

Regards,

Harjit Singh

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BigChann,

Jai Gurudev !

if you think I am stirring up conflict than it is not true. What conflict I could stir up...? It's only bloody computer.

By the way based on you notions of disrespect etc..let me ask couple questions and everybody may respond in their own way..

Q. 1.

a. Do you follow bani in SGGS as living guru (bani guru guru hai bani) ?

b. Or do you follow 1430 pages of the GGS as living guru (not what is written on it)?

Q.2

a. Do you follow what is written in GGS in 1604 as a guidance for Sikhs ?

b. or do you follow Sikh Mariada written in 1920s...?

Regards,

Harjit Singh

Your criticizing Rahit in order to justify the existence of Ravidassia faith? The oldest Rahits date back to the time of the Gurus and they are fairly similar. The 1920's Rahit which you talked awayed stripped away the casteism that you are opposed to. One of the oldest Rahits is Gyan Ratnvali by Bhai Mani Singh. Also, Have you heard of Gyani Ditt Singh? He was one of the most active members of the Singh Sabha movement, and one its most important leaders. Here is a bio http://www.sikh-hist.../dittsingh.html

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BiggChann Ji:

Jai Gurudev:

I can understand your feelings because you revere GGS as a living guru but we never did and would never and this was the point of conflict. This is not to imply that we disrespect it in any manner. We believed in bani rather than the medium it is written on and we allowed both mona or anybody else to read it. Off couse GGS being a holy book has its inherent respect but we didn't believe in the rituals of airconditioning it, making it go to sleep, wake it up, providing it heat in winter specifically etc. If sikhs do it than that's fine, we have no issue with it. If GGS is a shared granth than one group can't enforce their mariada on everybody since sharing inherently implies that it is respected and worshipped equally by all. We addressed Ravidass as Guru and sikhs didn't like it so it is better to take own route.

If I take your analogy of cutting the limbs than how many limbs Guru Nanak Dev Ji cut. Satguru Naamdev, Satguru Sain, Baba Sheikh Farid, Bhagat Rama Nand were all senior to Guru Nanak Dev ji and obviously weren't alive when Guru nanak took their bani and included in GGS. How did he ask them? Moreover, GGS is a compiled Granth and Guru nanak Dev or Sikhs, I am afrain to say, don't get ownership of Guru ravidass Bani or other bani of other's saints. What if kabir panthis come and ask you to give back Satguru Kabir's bani? So analogy of yours, I am sorry to say is more based on your personal feelings.

You may argue that it is living but then again, it is not for us. For us Ravidassias it has been used as a reason to murder innocent ravidassias right in its front. Now which living guru would allow that...? Where was the living guru when innocent worshippers were stabbed in Vienna or a child's throat was almost slashed with gatra sahib ji and held at ransom. You may talk about beadbi but true living guru would never allow cold blooded murder of anybody. That is not the job of a guru but that is the job of a blood thirty monster. Living guru forgives and leaves it up to almighty to take care of things.

Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa

Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh

harjits4, as I pointed out earlier, it is likely a good move that Dera Ballan take their own path as clearly they were disrespecting Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji Maharaj. Although it is strange that they want to now wish to disregard the same Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji that they have used for years to amass their wealth and following. Thankfully, they do not speak for the Ravidass community at large and it appears from some reports that not for all their followers either.

Also as pointed out in another post, the bani of the Bhagats you have named is unique to Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji. Not cut and paste as your Dera Ballan intend too.

In respect of violence, I do not know exactly what took place in Vienna although I am aware that Dera Ballan leaders have continuously disrespected Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji dispite requests to refrain from doing so. Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji was and never has been used as a reason to murder and being as you are on a Sikh forum, I would suggest you control your fingers when you type such things. Apart from hearing abour Ramanand, I was not at Vienna nor have I heard anything about the 'allegations' you are making. However you seem to overlook that your own Dera Ballan followers didn't seem to have any problem whilst commiting violence, rioting and looting as well as burning the same Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji that contains the bani of Bhagat Ravidass. It is evidence of 'hatred' rather than disrespecting 'rituals'. I would suggest that blame falls squarely on the Dera Ballans leaders.

It is clear that you are only this forum to stir up conflict.

BigChann,

Jai Gurudev !

if you think I am stirring up conflict than it is not true. What conflict I could stir up...? It's only bloody computer.

By the way based on you notions of disrespect etc..let me ask couple questions and everybody may respond in their own way..

Q. 1.

a. Do you follow bani in SGGS as living guru (bani guru guru hai bani) ?

b. Or do you follow 1430 pages of the GGS as living guru (not what is written on it)?

Q.2

a. Do you follow what is written in GGS in 1604 as a guidance for Sikhs ?

b. or do you follow Sikh Mariada written in 1920s...?

Regards,

Harjit Singh

Q. 1.

Each letter of Gurbani is our Guru. Where Bani Is contained it is the Body of Our Guru So Both.

Q.2.

With regards to marayada for Guru Granth Sahib it is the more or so the maryada followed since 1604 (Today satkaar for bani has decreased marayada then was more stictly followed). Guru Arjan Devji gave up his bed for The bani and used to sleep on the floor.

Guru is for the world. But if satkaar is not present it is the duty of the Sikhs of the Guru to stop beadbi . So salute to the singhs in Vienna.

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apnepart2,

Come on, I not calling Guru Nanak a mischief. He added Guru Ravidass's bani as a mark of utmost respect for Guru Ravidass Ji. I was only responding to analogy drawn ealier of taking out bani equivalent to cutting limbs. That is the only reason, I commented, if you consider it equivalent to cutting limbs than how many limbs Guru nanak cut ?

Also Guru Ravidass Bani, which is in GGS is also existing in various manuscripts which predate GGS and that's where the bani in the new granth has been added from. So this claim that bani is being taken out is not valid. There is no legal implication anyway, even if it is taken out.

Also Satguru Kabir's whole of bani in GGS exists in Kabirpanthi granth Kabir Bijak, which predates GGS. So, not mine but from your analogy, Guru Nanak committed a blasphemy. Now you and I know it is not true but when rationale presented by you is such than why counter is also true?

Bhagats Bani was not added out of respect as you seem to think so. This shows your level of understanding of Sikh religion and it's doctrines.

How Bhagat Bani got in SGGS is not exactly known, Guru Nanak having collected it just an assumption drawn from his wide travels. How the Bani of Bhagats is in Gurmukhi in sggs when most of them had nothing to do with Punjabi is also mystery for which every historian has his own theory. The exact life details of Bhagats esp. Ravidas and Kabir are really not known and depend upon traditional stories. One such story is how the souls of Bhagats came and requested Guru Arjan to include their work in SGGS when he started compiling SGGS, and the party was lead by Kabir not Ravidas.

As for Kabir panthis, their granth is very different from SGGS. There is a wide range of differences between Bijak's content and those of SGGS in vocabulary, spellings, language, overall message etc. Similar and exact are two different things. SGGS is not a cut and paste job as you think so. That is why cuting and pasting of Bhagat Bani cannot be allowed from SGGS.

Can i ask you a question

You quote Kabirpanthis. They have their own Granth which is not similar to SGGS in any way. Why don't you follow them a produce a granth of Bhagat Ravidas and then compare with SGGS? Why the cut and paste job? Didn't Bhagat ravidas leave any Granth behind? Why don't you provide the origins of the manuscripts you are talking about and present their contents here.

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