Ravidasi Followers Of Baalan Dera Start A New Faith

[harjits4]

Hi all:

Jai Gurudev to all:

I think I should be able to contribute something to this forum and clarify certain issues and history surrounding the religion and current commotion.

As some individuals have pointed out in this form that this may be welcome change and it is actually a welcome change because it is bound to reduce tensions and start the healing process between sikhs and chamars. Please don't mind my use of word chamar because I am a chamar myself so some self deprecation is allowed I hope :-). Ravidassia are essentially chamars at this point unless later on brahmins etc. ;-) also start joining.

Bit long though but believe me it is an interesting read and I have randomly changed fonts to keep you guys awake

Anyway to the serious stuff below.

Dera Ballan from 35000 feet

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Dera Ballan has been active in the punjab region, for dalits since approximately 1900s and since then, there has been a very close association between sikhs and this dera to the point, where Jathedar Sahib of the Akal Takth (please don't curse jathedars now, those were religious visits) would visit the dera on regular basis. The dera has maintained its distinctness by displaying the picture of Guru Ravidass Ji while in a separate place with proper respect, Guru Granth Sahib(henceforth called GGS) was also prominently displayed. Dera Ballan saints have also been respected very well in sikh community and were regularly given Siropas at Sri Harmandir Sahib also They have deliberately kept themselves away from politics and never in the past aligned with any political leader or anything. This principle has been adhered to so strictly that even on the last rites of Sant Rama Nand, no politician was allowed to address public. Right from the inception of this dera, from the time of Baba Pipal Dass, Sant Sarwan dass, Sant Hari Dass, Sant Garib Dass and current head Sant Niranjan Dass, GGS was kept and its message was spread across the world. In all the Guru Ravidass temples that this dera opened and/or assisted in opening across the world, GGS Sahib was prominently installed and displayed.

Even though this dera had the capability to open temples in the name of their own gurus but they never did it to maintain the community unity while many of the sants in Ravidass Sant Samaj who are being opportunistic and opposing Dera ballan now have opened temples in their own names in UK and USA rather than Guru Ravidass or one of sikh gurus.

This Dera has truly served the dalits of the region, and riots, following the murder of Sant Rama Nand by sikh terrorists, was an indication of that.

While staying in Punjab, this dera also built a grand temple in memory of Guru Ravidass Ji in Varanasi UP, the birthplace of Guru Ravidass Ji. It may be mentioned here when Varanasi temple was inaugurated, local population of UP was preventing the prakash of GGS as those were the days of terrorism in Punjab, and local populace addressed GGS as "Aantakvadion Ka Granth". At that point Sant Garib Dass mentioned that if GGS doesn't go there than he, the dera head, would also not go to Varanasi temple even though he was intrumental in constructing it and funding it. Such was the committment to GGS. Eventually local population was made to understand and GGS's prakash was done at the Varanasi temple. All the saints of this dera including the current head Sant Niranjan Dass who was gravely injured in Vienna have in true sense followed life ascribed by GGS.

"After the declaration of Ravidassia religion, it may be further added that the people who were protesting against prakash of GGS originally at the Varanasi temple were brethren of this "Samaj Bachao Morcha" which is related to addharam mission and Vishav Hindu Parishad. This same "Samaj Bachao Morcha" is now trying to work opposite and vouching for GGS and "save" social fabric of Punjab. So readers should make their own judgements. These people of Samaj Bachao Morcha have nothing to do with GGS and they are just in there to have some mileage out of all this. Since Addharam Mission (parent of this Samaj Bachao Morcha) has been at odds with this dera because mission members were always against the prakash of GGS at Varanasi and they wanted control of the Varanasi temple (which btw also led to a litigation which Dera won). Even later on also (couple of years ago), these same mission people joined RSS elements and Vishav Hindu Parishad and then arranged a march to Varanasi Temple and tried to take over the temple and remove GGS from there, but Dera followers prevented it. So readers can see behind this multiface "Samaj Bachao Morcha". The purpose of this group is nothing more than attempt to hurt the Dera. Samaj Bachao Morcha people are actually mischevious elements. Nobody has heard of these people in Ravidassia community untill now.

People are wondering why dera head is quiet after new religion has been declared. Firstly, Sant Niranjan Dass rarely speaks and secondly what has been done has been done in good faith and is beneficial to all. it will be realized in due course of time. Ravidassias have always loved and respected GGS and Sikh gurus and would continue to do but then comes a point sometimes where concept of heathy separation applies.

It is the purity of dera ballan saints that all the communities surrounding the area have utmost respect for these saints

Sant Rama Nand

===========

Sant Rama Nand was an educated individual (a graduate) and was a great orator of the bani of GGS and Guru Ravidass Ji. It can be very clearly stated that he was one of the best amongst his contemporaries as far as knowledge of GGS was concerned. There was not even an ounce of him which was not dedicated to GGS. Whenever someone mentioned to him about a separate granth, he threw away that idea and didn't entertain it any further. He was a very practical human being and again kept politicians at bay. He was also a man who one could not fool around with. He had a very very sharp sense of judgement. He was able to continuosly recite bani from GGS along with bani of Guru Ravidass for hours. All the community knew about his love for the GGS and his knowledge on it very clearly, and this was also one of the reasons for such an anger after his death i.e. he respected the GGS and spread its message for whole his life but at the end, he had to loose his life for it in its presence. His death has completely changed the landscape and that in an irreversible manner.

He was a go getter and was instrumental in successfully completing many projects for the community. Sikh scholars of the time and Akal Takth people knew that very well. They knew his abilities and respected him very much. Akal takth and prominent sikhs scholars who knew him very well knew what has been lost and what would be its implications.

Since Sant Rama Nand and dera also kept all the politicians at bay include the dalit politicians they faced hardships sometimes. Dera, right from the beginning had decided to follow route of non partisanship and concentrate of guru ravidass preaching.

Ravidass Sant Samaj

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Dera Ballan has always been sort of at at odds with Ravidass Sant Samaj because of certain reasons:

== Most of the Sants in the Sant Samaj are only worried about running their own deras like fiefdoms and their finances were wholly devoted for their own purpose rather than any community work. dera ballan detested this.

== Some of them got money from abroad and started lending them on interest to people which Dera Ballan considered unholy and anti community as our community is already poor.

== Sant Samaj saints laughed at the idea in the beginning when Dera Ballan saints wanted to build Varanasi temple in memory of Guru Ravidass. They essentially stated "why bother about Benaras santji, let's run our deras first". So very few came forward. Dera ballan went alone with very few participants.

== Since dera Ballan had and has enormous support, it became as a cause of jealousy for Sadhu Sampradai as most of them had nobody to accompany them when they visited foreign countries while when Dera Ballan Saints visited, they were mobbed by followers and donations fell from sky. Obviously people see what work was being done by Dera ballan.

== Many of these Sant Samaj saints have no education and they don't know what is happening in the world around and hence no concept of leadership and guidance to the community. They are merely retaining or sitting on the throne left by their ancestors who did work for community.

== At least one of these saints collected money from abroad dishonestly in the name of Dera Ballan and that obviously angered dera ballan.

== Many of these saints have gone to Dera Ballan from time to time and ask for money but dera Saints responded by saying that work for the community first and donations would automatically follow. This angered many of them.

So for quite some time, there has been consistent attempt by the Ravidass Sant Samaj to discredit or harm dera ballan and somehow to bring it down. They consider Dera Ballan as a lone wolf but community at large is fully behind Dera Ballan because community knows their track record. Dera ballan never bothered about this sant samaj and continued in their efforts to spread mission of Guru ravidass ji.

Varanasi temple issue

================

Since, now Varanasi temple is built and carries high profile as mecca of Ravidassis and sant samaj knows very well about the visibility of anybody who visits there, the same Sant Samaj, which scoffed at this idea of the temple in UP, now want to be part of it without doing anything. Obviously this is not going to happen and this has angered and frustrated them further. This is the reason that bunch of these people from sasnt samaj are trying to use the issue of Ravidass Granth to harm dera ballan. This is not going to yield anything. You can imagine that these sant samaj people claiming to be followers of Guru Ravidass and claiming to be representing Ravidassis are refusing to be called by the name Ravidassia. Today these Sant Samaj people who are claiming to be saviors of sikh religion and coming out with press statements, if you go to their dera, each of them have pictures of their own gurus, guru ravidass and GGS kept side by side along with murtis etc. They don't behave like saints of the past who had humility and love for human beings. These people are busy in running their deras.

There are almost 130 ravidass deras in punjab and this sant samaj is only supported by 11 deras. This you guys may not know about.

It may be noted that community and dera ballan saints understood these people very well it very well and didn't bother dealing with them or asking them when it came to point of declaring new religion and new holy book because these people wouldn't have anything to contribute anyway. These people are more like loosers. Take the word that if Dera Ballan had decided to keep Guru Granth Sahib then you would have seen the same Sant Samaj leading the community opposite way and try to cash on Sant Rama Nand's murder and themselves come up with another granth. This is their color unfortunately.

Post Sant Rama Nand

===============

After the murder of Sant Rama nand, obviously the situation has changed. Community is the driver of this change that Sants of Dera Ballan has brought.

For quite sometime, as dalits are asserting themselves, sikh code of conduct has been the cause of trouble in Guru Ravidass temples in India and abroad. ravidassias now don't want to be in a situation where they build ravidass temples, keep Guru Granth Sahib and then be dictated by the mariada of sikhs. This declaration actually removes that obstacle of mariada. Community feels that under the garb of mariada sikh terrorists have murdered Sant rama nand and Sikh mariada has also resulted into internal strife at Ravidass temples and they don't feel free to worship guru Ravidass in their own manner, let's have our own granth.

This new dharam and granth would have happened anyway one day, it just got sped up by Sant Rama Nand's murder.

Sikhs at large, should instead view it as a positive development as it is defusing of the situation that arose after Sant Rama Nand's murder. Now "Naa Rahega Baans or Naa bajegi Bansuri" i.e reason for trouble is gone. Since GGS will not be there, hence no sikh mariada.

Ravidassis were never part of sikhism anyway. There was a very tenuous relation between them and Sikhs never regarded Ravidass as Guru. The sikh code of conduct had sealed conduct of sikhs as far as guruship was concerned and Ravidassias today are not content with it. They don't want interference in their religious places and be remote controlled.

The suppost for dera ballan is enormous amongst the populace and it is a matter of time that other deras will also be forced by their followers to accept what has been dictated. Internally Sant Samaj also knows that whatever is happening is good but they are trying to leverage this opportunity to harm dera ballan and some of them are sitting on the sidelines to see which way the wind blows.

I think this is the time that Sikhs should do introspection too. Ravidassis have never and would never disrespect Gurus or Guru Granth Sahib and this development by Dera Ballan should be looked at in a positive manner. The concentrated force of dalits and sikhs can be used to achive a lot. If sikhs don't smarten up and read between the lines and stretch a hand of peace, it is to their (sikhs) harm as the change is irreversible and was long due for Ravidassis. The chamars of today are not chamars of yesteryears.

And as they say, at the end, Truth wins !

[harjits4]

wow, moderator you allow such stuff. would I be allowed to post such things too..?

Yaar, why go against the singers...?

They just reflect mood of the public. I am sure she will sing a similar song for khalistan also, if paid good money.

[harjits4]

disregard

[kuthaman]

I do not understand your position. I see a large post, but I cannot really understand what you are getting at. Please give me a small summary of your point.

[AK47 JATHA LION]

If they want to be recognized as a seperate group of people thats understandable. Their entitled to their beliefs.

Recently in India I witnessed 1 of their parades. In which they were walking by doing bhangra playing tunes like "ankhi put chammara deh". Thats fair enough aswell.

But Alot of them were carrying unsheathed swords raised in the air, hockey sticks, baseball bats and iron rods which felt intimidating. Shouting slogans calling the Vienna Sikhs terrorists.

All this was going on with a photo of Bhagat Ravidass ji at the front of the Parade.

In 1 pend i know of, the sarpanch is Ravidassi. The jatts in that particular pend had no problem with that. But when it all kicked off recently in Vienna, the same Sarpanch and his goons were going round burning Sikh Shops and businesses down while leaving the Ravidassi ones untouched. They were smashing up cars that had Sant Bhindranwalle Stickers on them.

The sarpanch got a beating and few of his goons were murdered in that pend for that.

We all hear the symphatisthing stories too often about how they are the down trodden minority that we treat badly. But bear in mind, its this same down trodden minority that is the majority and will be smashing up your homes, shops, cars if it kicks off again.

Just a word of warning.

When lucha saudhas body guard shot a sikh dead. I noticed Sikhs didnt go round singling out and burning/smashing every so called low caste shop and business.

IN jallandhar the train carriages that got burnt are still sitting there and it can be seen today. Such behavior is unnacceptable.

[harjits4]

I do not understand your position. I see a large post, but I cannot really understand what you are getting at. Please give me a small summary of your point.

Jai Gurudev Ji:

Sure. I hope you took the pains :-) to read through it. Just to mention, I am not a Dera Ballan official or representative. I am just a Ravidassia/chamar who knows little bit more and can read/write english.

In nutshell,

DECLARATION OF A NEW DHARAM RAVIDASSIA IS A VERY GOOD NEWS FOR SIKHS AND US AND GENERAL ATMOSPHERE IN PUNJAB.

• The detractors, protesters of above statement from chamars/Ravidassia side are the ones who have their alignments with political parties (including RSS, Congress, Vishav Hindu Parishad, BJP etc.) and they have some own grudges to take care of.

• The head of Ravidass Sant Samaj influences and is influenced by Ch. Jagjit Singh of congress, if you recall, Jagjit Singh had tons of corruption cases against him and us chamars detest him that's why he was kicked out last time. He is most hated chamar politician of Punjab by chamars.

• Dera Ballan doesn't take decisions based on Politics. There approach is to chose their own path and don't waiver and/or influenced by politics. They had the best of relations with Sikhs on religious basis and will still do. Otherwise, as you know, it is not easy to survive for a dera in Punjab under the nose of sgpc, akal takth etc. and others for more than 100 years (and that too a Ravidassia dera). All the major sikh institutions know their commitment. Their path has been fully of religion.

• In the history of Dera Ballan, they have never allowed a politician to talk about anything else other than religion from its stage, if ever they have been allowed to speak.

• The Samaj Bachao Morcha is influenced by RSS and Vishav Hindu Parishad and related to addharam mission who have their own Ad Prakash granth which they wanted to keep at Varanasi temple by removing SGGS.

• Sant Rama Nand was a noble soul and his murder by Sikh Terrorists a blot on Sikhism and is an urfortunate reflection of current state of affairs.

• The declaration of new granth and dharam would have happened anyway, if just got sped up with murder.

Sikhs should view this Ravidass Sant Samaj and Samaj Bachao Morcha very carefully and be vary of their stands and claims. They chnage their positions and alignments like knife on wet leather while Dera Ballan doesn't.

Sikhs should be actually be pleased about it because like Ravidassia, sikhs also struggle with identity crisis and I agree that If I am mandated to follow a certain code of conduct as part of my religion, I want to see my fellow sikhs also to do the same for unity and homogenity. Ravidassis in sikhs were standouts because of them calling Ravidass as guru and sikhs annoyance can be understood. Sikhs should also purge such elements too. it's not they they are wrong but for a community to progress homogenity is essential.

Sikhs should not stick on to Ravidassias by claiming them to Ravidassia Sikhs.

[S1ngh]

Dude.. there is no ravidassi sikh, this sikh or that sikh..

Sikh is just simply sikh !

[harjits4]

Dude.. there is no ravidassi sikh, this sikh or that sikh..

Sikh is just simply sikh !

Agreed and that's what I emphasized.

I made the comment in my post because this guy Gurbacahn Singh, who is from one of the takhts is trying to talk tough and claiming that Ravidassia sikhs are integral parts of sikhism.

Ravidassia and Sikhs are distinct identities. Ravidassia consider Guru Ravidass as supreme and only guru while Sikhs consider 10 gurus and SGGS as only guru.

This is the reason, whatever has happened, happened for good.

[S1ngh]

I don't know what the real issue about the them declaring new religion but it really doesn't matter to sikhs in general BUT however it is not fair to those who are the followers.. Everyone is free to choose what he/she wants to do.. no man made dera can tell them what to do and what not to do.. Leaders do stuff for their own benefits !

I made the comment in my post because this guy Gurbacahn Singh, who is from one of the takhts is trying to talk tough and claiming that Ravidassia sikhs are integral parts of sikhism.

The person you are referring is Singh Sahib Giani Gurbachan Singh who is the Jathedar of Sri Akal Takht Sahib. It is very respectable position in our community thus i request you and others to speak with respect when involving them in discussion even if you don't agree with their stand

[harjits4]

I don't know what the real issue about the them declaring new religion but it really doesn't matter to sikhs in general BUT however it is not fair to those who are the followers.. Everyone is free to choose what he/she wants to do.. no man made dera can tell them what to do and what not to do.. Leaders do stuff for their own benefits !

I made the comment in my post because this guy Gurbacahn Singh, who is from one of the takhts is trying to talk tough and claiming that Ravidassia sikhs are integral parts of sikhism.

The person you are referring is Singh Sahib Giani Gurbachan Singh who is the Jathedar of Sri Akal Takht Sahib. It is very respectable position in our community thus i request you and others to speak with respect when involving them in discussion even if you don't agree with their stand

I think declaring new religion had become a necessity after the murder of Sant Rama Nand. The major issue is forcing of sikh mariada on Ravidassis which Ravidassias were finding difficult to digest and was becoming major point of conflict.

About Singh Sahib, my apologies, I didn't know his position. I had a cursory look at his comments and they seem to be very rude and coming from some goon rather than a Jathedar, who is religious head of the community. I read them in full now and they are not impressive. Someone so near the guru and bani has to be humble.