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Is Guru Nanak God?

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Are God and Guru Nanak Saheb jee separate or the same?

My limited understanding thinks of Waheguru ji as a limitless ocean and Guru ji as a wave. They are one and the same yet they are different. It wrong to say the wave is the complete ocean. Guru Gobind Singh ji says that the person who calls him God will go to hell.

Blessed Gursikhs speak of having Guru Nanak Dev ji's darshan. They talk about making one's body and mind pure so that Guru Nanak Dev ji will place his lotus feet in you. They meditate and see the light of Akal Purakh, inside which they are blessed with Guru ji's Darshan. The say Guru Nanak ji is God, and Guru Nanak ji was all the Guru Sahibs.

Baba Nand Singh ji was sitting at the back of the empty gurdwara and being in a state of anand called over his friend the Ragi musician. He said ‘I'm going to give you Guru Nanak Dev ji's darshan. And like a father takes his newborn son outside and holding him in his arms says 'look son - THE MOON', Baba Nand Singh ji hugged the Ragi ji and said'behold Guru Nanak ji in Guru Granth Sahib ji.

Guru Granth Sahib ji says '

The Embodiment of Light, the Lord Himself is called Guru Nanak. From Him, came Guru Angad; His essence was absorbed into the essence. Guru Angad showed His Mercy, and established Amar Daas as the True Guru. Guru Amar Daas blessed Guru Raam Daas with the umbrella of immortality. So speaks Mathuraa: gazing upon the Blessed Vision, the Darshan of Guru Raam Daas, His speech became as sweet as nectar. With your eyes, see the certified Primal Person, Guru Arjun, the Fifth Manifestation of the Guru. || 1 || ' (SWAIYAS IN PRAISE OF THE FIFTH MEHL, page 1406)

A blessed gursikh I know told me that when she was deeply, deeply in a state of Vairag (sadness at being separated from God), that she had one and only one thought on her mind, day and night, and that was to have Guru Nanak Ji's darshan. One night guests came and they slept in the bedrooms and the Gursikh took the couch downstairs. Lying down, under the covers, in the dark room her meditation, her desparation reached a peak. Blinding, powerful light and love burst open inside her mind - it was Guru Nanak Dev ji's radiance. Afterwards she noticed that she had sweated profusely because of Guru ji's awesome power.

" BHAIRAO, FIFTH MEHL: The True Guru has listened to my prayer. All my affairs have been resolved. Deep within my mind and body, I meditate on God. The Perfect Guru has dispelled all my fears. || 1 || The All-powerful Divine Guru is the Greatest of all. Serving Him, I obtain all comforts.|| Pause || Everything is done by Him. No one can erase His Eternal Decree. The Supreme Lord God, the Transcendent Lord, is incomparably beautiful. The Guru is the Image of Fulfillment, the Embodiment of the Lord. || 2 || The Name of the Lord abides deep within him. Wherever he looks, he sees the Wisdom of God. His mind is totally enlightened and illuminated. Within that person, the Supreme Lord God abides. || 3 || I humbly bow to that Guru forever. I am forever a sacrifice to that Guru. I wash the feet of the Guru, and drink in this water. Chanting and meditating forever on Guru Nanak, I live. || 4 || 43 || 56 || " (Guru Granth Sahib jee panna 1152)

There is absolutely no doubt in this, but only a rare person embraces love for the Guru Nanak. God and Guru have two forms but they have the same one light. It is by the word that mortal attains to the union with God.

The mind is in the body, and the True Lord is in the mind

(Guru Granth Sahib jee panna 686)

The above seem to equate Guru Ji with God. Guru Gobind Singh Ji forbade the Sikhs to make any such claims. We love our Guru Ji very much, which is understandable, but we should not cross the lines set for us.

You are quite right , Guru Gobind Singh did say those very words. But, Siri Guru Granth Sahib Ji also says "Oh mystery of mysteries, and that which nobody sees, that I and my Guru (meaning God) are One"

You see, Sikhi teaches there is only One Guru, and it is That Guru which shines in the eyes of our SatGuru (s) from Guru Nanak Dev Ji Sahib through all Ten Nanaks, and through Siri Guru Granth Sahib.

The human SatGuru is "just a man" and yet this "man" is completely surrendered to Guru Ji, empty of Haumai and becomes a Perfect Mirror of The Wonderous Destroyer of Darkness.

When I look into the eyes of the Guru , when I hear His Words, there is NO MAN THERE, there is only the Ocean that Is Vaaheguruuuu. This is what the brother meant.

This is a profound mystery that you will find ALL of the SIkh Gurus, all of the Baghats and Saints in Siri Guru Granth Sahib Ji mention. Just as Kabir Ji Sahib said "no-one knows this mystery, how I and my Guru are One" , we say that along with them.

We celebrate a totally and completely Surrendered and Realized Soul joined and undifferentiated from Ikoankar SatNaam Siri Vaaaheguruuuuu, in that Union we don't see the man Nanak, nor Gobind Singh, but a mortal man who's Soul/Atman has joined with Braman/Vaheguru and has obliterated any sense of self/Haumai and is lost in that embrace.

In our daily Paath we read that Guru takes millions of forms (roop) , and yet He is (aroop) without form. Guru said this, I didn't ! And this is a wonderous mystery. I can look in YOUR eyes, hear YOUR words, and look back at you saying Vaahhh Guru. . .Wonderous Guru, for if He is not in your eyes, than cetainly he is not the the eyes and the Word of Gurus Nanak and Gobind Singh.

Much the same is Naam: Naam is Name of God, yet IS God, IS Guru, Is Gurubani, IS Naam, IS Guru. The Light that is Vaheguru and the Voice that is His, is so bright that it pervades All Existent, there is NOWHERE it does not exist , yet it seems to us that it shines brighter when we encounter a Soul that has surrender his ego and merged with it , not blocking it in any way.

This , indeed , is the Naam (Essense) of which we Simran (Keep in Remembrance) , He is One , without an other , so how could it be otherwise?

There is a slight , but at the same time , HUGE difference , between someone praising the human SatGuru Gobind Singh , and The Only One

Who IS, the Wonderous Destoyer of Darkness (Vaheguru).

Guru Gobind Singh ji has said to us

'ma param purakh ko daasa, dekhan aa-eo jagat tamasa'.

I am the Supreme Beings servant, sent here to watch the world drama'.

And Guru Sahib has gone one step further in stating that anyone who calls him God will go to hell. In addition one of my veer ji's has pointed out that God is Ajuni (not in the cycle of birth and death) but Guru Sahibs had bodies that were born and died, so they cant be called God.

In 'Bandagi-nama' by Bhai Ragbir Singh (a must read for all naam travellers), Bhai Sahib says that he has been amazed by the fact that every religion adores their prophet/teacher as the transcedental being. They have lost sight of the truly supreme being, the Original Guru - Waheguru ji.

Guru Gobind Singh ji critises Hindus for believing Krishanji, Brahma, Shiva, or Vishnu are the Supreme God. Guru Gobind Singh ji writes that Waheguru ji sent so many 'witnesses' to tell the world about Supreme God, but each one got themself worshipped instead. That's why Guru Gobind Singh ji was so adamant about not being worshipped as the Supreme Being.

So why do GurSikhs who've spiritually progressed refer to Guru Nanak ji as being God? Why did Baba Nand Singh ji say that Guru Gobind Singh ji is God, and the verse about going to hell was Guru Sahib being modest? Why does Guru Granth Sahib Jee say

‘O Guru Arjun, You are Eternal, Invaluable, Unborn, Self-existent, the Destroyer of fear, the Dispeller of pain, Infinite and Fearless. You have grasped the Ungraspable, and burnt away doubt and skepticism. You bestow cooling and soothing peace. The Self-existent, Perfect Primal Lord God Creator has taken birth. First, Guru Nanak, then Guru Angad and Guru Amar Daas, the True Guru, have been absorbed into the Word of the Shabad. Blessed, blessed is Guru Raam Daas, the Philosopher's Stone, who transformed Guru Arjun unto Himself. || 5 ||’ (panna 1407- written by the bhaat (poet)and approved by Guru Arjun Dev ji for inclusion in Guru Granth Sahib ji)

‘In the ocean of this Dark Age of Kali Yuga, the Lord's Name has been revealed In the Form of Guru Arjun, to save the world. Pain and poverty are taken away from that person, within whose heart the Saint abides. He is the Pure, Immaculate Form of the Infinite Lord; except for Him, there is no other at all. Whoever knows Him in thought, word and deed, becomes just like Him. He is totally pervading the earth, the sky and the nine regions of the planet. He is the Embodiment of the Light of God. So speaks Mat'huraa: there is no difference between God and Guru; Guru Arjun is the Personification of the Lord Himself. || 7 || 19 || (panna 1409)

I was always confused about God and Guru and who to focus on when meditating, if I focus on the Supreme Being then I felt guilty that i'm not building any love up for my Guru, if I focus on my Guru then I felt guilty that I was disobeying Guru Gobind Singh ji...and my whiole simran time was wasted tossing from one focus to the other. But Guru Sahib is merciful,

Guru Arjun Dev ji explains:

'The Divine Guru is the True Guru, the Supreme Lord God, the Transcendent Lord; Nanak bows in humble reverence to the Lord, the Divine Guru.' (page 262)

Meaning the Guru we should focus on is God, who is our Divine and Wonderful Guru : WaheGuru jee. This Divine and Wonderful Guru is in the True Guru - in all of our SatGuru jee’s. SatGuru jee is Waheguru jee but we meditate on Waheguru jee and love and serve SatGuru jee.

When starting any simran/kirtan/paat I always focus on Guru Granth Sahib, all pervading light - jag dee jot shining equally on everyone like the sun without prejudice. Then I sing Wahe-guru with loving adoration to Guru Granth Sahib ji. This brings my mind to humility and love quite quickly, then I focus inside the mind, behind the forehead and say Wahguru mentally , taking the love and humility feeling and thinking of the Supreme ocean of love all around and inside me - flowing from Guru Granth Sahib ji.

Guru Nanak Dev Ji prohibited people to even build any place in his memory, so calling himself God is far from it. Similarly Guru Gobind Singh Ji said the people who will worship him or will call him God, shall rot in hell.

I think the problem is that we think of different things when we hear the Word god. I guess most people think of a being which is separate from Creation, perhaps overlooking it from a paradise called heaven. And to say guru nanak was god means to most people that this being left heaven and come down to earth to rome about with the creatures. But guru nanak ji never said he was that being from heaven, he said he's that Being's Servant. So to call the servant the master is confusing. From the little knowledge I have, when I hear the word God, I think of A supreme being, energy, light, ocean of love, supreme soul (param atma)

This ocean is what we creatures are living , breathing, eating and talking in. A drop from this ocean is in each of us - our soul (atma). Like a sealed bottle containg water submerged in the ocean. Our body is the bottle and God is inside us and outside us. Our atma wants to get out of the body and merge back into the param-atma, but our sins, the 5 enemies etc keep the bottle tightly sealed. We are separate from God, although God is closer to us than our own hands and feet (bhagat Ravi Das jee). Now Guru Nanak ji had a body too, but there was no seal, no lid, this supreme ocean was moving freely in and out of the bottle. Once when bhagat kabeer was saying 'Raam, Raam' he found himself saying 'Kabeer, Kabeer'. He did ardas and asked Raam (God) why this was and Raam replied 'Raam and Kabeer are now one' (this Is in Guru Granth Sahib jee 'Ram Kabeer ek ha') and there was no difference between saying Raam or Kaabeer when refering to God.

The Guru ji's walked a tight rope, they showed us how to love our Satguru. Look at Bhai Lehna ji's love for Guru Nanak jee, Bhai Amaru ji’s love for Guru Angad Dev ji, Bhai Jetha Jee's love for Guru Amar das ji, Bhai Arjun Dev ji's love for Guru Raam Daas ji and so on for all our Guru jee’s. Then having loved their Saatguru ji's, they became satguru just as ‘Ram Kabeer ek ha’..One with God. What Guru ji's objected to was what had happened in Hinduism i.e. people believed Brahma, Vishnu and Shiva or countless gods and goddesses were the One Supreme God, when in reality they were just Beings sealed in another type of bottle.

Guru Gobind Singh ji didnt want people to say he was God and forget the Supreme Being, the Param-atma, the ocean of love all around, inside and outside. The ocean was in Guru Gobind Singh ji in all the human Guru’s, in guru Granth Sahib jee and one day in you too.

But, none of them are the limits of the ocean, just a part of it. A part of the ocean is still the ocean.

Here are some questions and answers from a conversation with a blessed gursikh earlier today regarding these questions.

Is Guru Nanak ji's path the only way to reach God, Or can Hindu, muslims, christians and other religions reach God too?

To reach God is difficult. No-one finds it easy. Even the majority of Sikhs have not reached God through all their kirtan, akhand paats, daily prayers, and Waheguru -Waheguru repetitions. Why? Because only a few rare ones know what to really do, the others are the blind leading the blind. To reach the One God, a person needs Karam (i.e. good divine actions), the only way Karam is gained is through having Naam in your heart. Most people are so busy singing loudly and perhaps just as a show to other people that the efforts are not accepted by God. The rare accepted ones have Naam residing in their heart. They do simran silently, without tongue or body moving. They are not trying to impress the world. God accepts their simran. This rule applies to all people regardless of religion. Only worldy people see differences between one another be it religion or any other division. The ones who have naam residing in their heart see everyone as one and the same.

Can people of other religions generate Karam through their own equivalent of Naam. For example, if a Hindu was to do 'Ram Ram', or a Muslim was to do 'Allah Allah' could it reside in their heart like 'waheguru waheguru'? Would they then be acceptable to God?

Firstly, you shouldn't be concerned about what other people are or are not doing. Be committed to doing Waheguru Waheguru in your heart, whether you are sitting with Sikhs or in a crowd of Hindus doing 'Ram Ram'. The person who jumps between 'boats' is going to drown. Now in Gurbanee, Guru Sahibs have referred to God as Ram many times. Even Bhagat Kabeer ji did 'Ram Ram' all the time and he reached a high state of mind.

So you're saying that there's no difference between doing 'Ram Ram' for a Hindu, and 'Waheguru Waheguru' for a Sikh?

No. Their is a difference. The Bhagats reached a very high state of mind, but the GurMantr (Waheguru) that Guru Nanak ji brought to the world takes one even beyond the place where the Bhagats reached.

What do you mean 'beyond'?

For example could Bhagat Kabeer ji physically fight against thousands of enemies? No. He did have spiritual strength, but he was weak when it came to having physical power. Now look at the Khalsa like Baba Deep Singh ji amongst others, could they fight thousands of enemies? Yes. They reached the same spiritual heights as the Bhagats, but the Waheguru GurMantr took them beyond that. It is the tenth form of Guru Nanak ji as Guru Gobind Singh ji that gives Khalsa this power. Guru Gobind Singh ji even went down on bended knee to receive the Amrit that takes us beyond the previous paths.

Was Guru Nanak ji's basic philosophy that hindus should be good Hindus and for Muslims to be good muslims, hence he never really preached for people to follow the way he was showing?

No. You can't rely on all Sakhis being true, sakhis have been passed from one person to another and it changes slightly each time. Guru Nanak ji pointed out the mistakes that mankind was making and basically said join with one God by building your karam, which is earnt by meditating with Waheguru Waheguru in the heart. People followed Guru ji out of love, not force. The shere prescence of Guru Nanak ji was enough to make all of a person's pains disappear. People were moved to the core when they met Guru Nanak ji and followed out of love.

Is Guru Nanak Dev ji God?

Yes. But join with God. Guru Nanak ji has taught us to join with God & not him. When you meet God you will see Guru Nanak ji is God, and within him you will see all of Guru ji's forms.

Why did Guru Gobind Singh ji say 'if you call me God you will go to hell'?

He wanted people to meditate on the Power that sent him into this world. He didnt want people to meditate on him. But when you reach the Supreme Being you will realise that there is no difference between God and Guru.

Should we worship God or Guru?

Worship God. Once a Hindu stared in humilty at Guru Nanak ji's glowing feet, Guru ji said you're not going to get to God by staring at the Guru's feet. You need to get Naam to reside inside your heart.

Should we meditate on a picture, or on Guru Granth Sahib ji or visualise the word Waheguru, or something other breathing technique?

Concentrate on the One Waheguru ji inside with one mind. Guru ji will lead you and give you the right things at the right time. No one else can tell you how naam simran because they dont know. Look how many people do Sikhi preaching or any preaching of any religion, but how many of them tell you how to do Naam simran? They can't tell you what they havent been blessed with. Even the ones tell you do it with this technique or that technique are fooling people just to to join their group. They real way is do it inside your heart and have faith Guru Nanak ji himself will show you the right things at the right time.

Guru Nanak ji himself will show you the right things at the right time.

Any other questions?

No, thankyou very much, dhan guru nanak ji that he sends his devotee to answer my questions.

Finally, the most important thing to remember is 'ek man ik dhia-o' :meditate on the One with one mind, then Guru ji will lead you himself.

During the last week, I raised a question of whether Guru Nanak Dev Jee is God and if we should worship our Gurus or only Waheguru? I received many and all very wonderful replies. In this message, I simply want to draw conclusions from all of those replies and write my own views.

But before I do that, I want to thank everyone for taking their time, to teach something to a person like me.

Now coming to the subject:

It seems a difficult decision to make as both sides have good points. It may be true that we should leave it to our Guru to lead us to Waheguru. But also remember that Guru Gobind Singh Ji said he is joining the Sikhs directly with Waheguru, so they shall not need any mediator. As one Gursikh pointed out that we love other people, but if we analyze the relationships, than it does not have any meaning. I guess I personally fail here. I tend to analyze things, and may be overlooking the important relationships.

To make the long story short :-), I would like to point out my stand. If our Gurus prohibited us from worshiping them, I think we should simply follow their wish. They have given us the Shabad Guru, and we should follow that. We can love our Gurus, and remember them, and learn something from the kind of lives they lead. But we should form our relationship directly with Waheguru just as our Guru Ji wanted us to. It is very easy to worship the Gurus, but I don't think if they will be pleased with that. They will only feel that they too have failed on us, and we should not do that to them. We should not let our emotions take over, and fail the purpose of their visit to us.

Reading the sakhis of Guru Nanak Dev Ji, I came across where Guru Nanak Dev Ji are conversing with a Muslim who looks down the Hindues because they worship hundreds of gods and goddesses. Guru Nanak Dev Ji told him that he too worships Moha(n)mad. The Muslim was not quite worshiping only God. And Guru Ji told him that he was worshiping two not ONE, so what difference does it make if the hindues are worshiping hundreds, they all are on the same lines. Making two from one, and then moving to hundreds, Guru Ji said that it was the same.

Some Gursikhs have pointed out the importance of the Guru, using what is written in Guru Granth Sahib.

Guru Gobind dooe khaRe, kis ke laagu paae...

(Guru and God both are front of me, whom should I kneel to,

I am ever a sacrifice to the Guru who has shown me the God).

I would take this as appreciation and love.

Above all, we should not forget that:

Hukame ander sabh ko, bahar hukame naa koee..

Everything is in God's will.

Even Guru Nanak and Guru Gobind Singh Ji's actions, their visit and their sacrifices are from God's Hukam. We should not separate the two. We should also appreciate Waheguru for sending his messengers for us.

On the other hand, some responses have pointed out the importance of Naam, and not consider Sikhism as other religions. That seems to feel right. Sikhism is to turn people into Saints, and have relationship with God directly, just like other Saints like Kabir, Namdev etc. did. Many of us may not be at that level, but this life can be a start.

We can go on and on with this issue. But it really is a personal matter, and if the sincerity is there, God and Guru will show us the right path.

Once again, thank you all for your responses. I am sorry if I offended anyone in this message.

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maharaj also said that when one becomes khalsa, there is no difference between khalsa, guru and akal

i dont remeber the exact wording tho, sorry

in essence, we are all god, a piece of creation, another roop of Akal

Maharaj was just enlightened by it, new they were Akal on earth, and could therefore teach the people, in human roop how to do milava with akal

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the question is answered by Dasam Patshah in the Sri Sarbloh Granth. listen to katha by the late Baba Santa Singh who talks about this.

where can i find these kathas?

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