Ramgarhia is a Misl, not a caste (jaat).

[Singhstah]

Waheguroo Jee Ka Khalsa!

Waheguroo Jee Kee Fateh!!

I also know Ramgarhia was a misl but wat is the point ofusin it now, think about it r we livin in war times? r we in theold khalsa raj? NO, it dosent matter what happened in the past cause these people nowadays who call themeselves Ramgahria arent like the misl in the olden days, we're also not meant to seperate our selves, lets be UNITED as the KHALSA.

[Akaali]

Hari,

As Khalistani said, "Bani guru, Guru hai bani, vich bani amrit saray" All discussion are false, if they don't include Akaal purkh..As for the history aspect, its not a big part of Sikh history, therefore, isn't worth the debate. Bhul chuk maaf.

[mann_kaum_layee_qurbaan]

khalsa you are wrong it is a big part of sikh history because the misls led to the sikh raaj under maharaja ranjit singh, who consolidated all the mils into one sikh empire...as for the ramgharia thing yeah just open up your local punjabi newspaper and look into the wedding ads, it will say tall handsome ramgharia sikh boy...blah blah blah, yeah i know it WAS A MISL, but it is used as a caste.....

[Niranjana]

Gur Fateh!

Hari, I am with on this one through and through, the responses you have received to date are typical of those who do not wish to read your comments or their own.

Amardeep Singh, the "Manas Ki Jaat.." quote from the Dasam Granth would imply that calling yourself a Sikh is also wrong, since we are all ONE Human race...please keep things in context.

Again with the "Bani hai Guru..." quote from the Sri Guru, I love the way that the Tarna Dal Ramgharia Nihang Singh Misl is suddenly now "not a big part of Sikh history", I guess when Ahmed Shah Adbali and his cronies were pillaging Punjab and the rest of India the fact that the Ramgharia and Alhuwalia Misls were paramount in defeating this dhust is not that important at all!!! Please read your history beyond just 1984 or the past 100 years of the Singh Sabha reforms...

MKhalsa, you are correct that many use Ramgharia as if it is a caste, I have written previously on this topic and personally those who claim to be "ramgharias" hardly know anything about it, but just because this is occuring does not make Ramgharia a caste, just like the clean shaven Jatt folk in Punjab who still insist they are Sardars on account of being Jatts, doesn't make all Jatts = Khalsa Singhs.

Comments concerning Sikh matrimonial sites are hardly a great barometer to qualify historical matters of our heritage, given the wide range of requests for Drinker/Non-veg Clean Shaven Jatt Sikh Males, which we can hardly regard to be a correct historical or religious reference. The title Ramgharia is part and parcel of our heritage as witnessed by the Ramgharis Bunga at Amritsar

and the history associated with this place.

Those 'Tarkans' and others who have come to the ill-founded conclusion that Ramgharia = Tarkan, should bear in mind, that in terms of caste, this misl was created by a Jatt, moreover Jatt surnames like Gill, Sahota and other can also be found in large numbers within Ramgharias as can the Khatri surname "Soori", hence the Misl, whilst predominantly composed of Tarkans, Lohars, Mistries, was not solely restricted to these 'castes', hence is not a caste in itself nor an umbrella for the tarkans and lohars to get together.

It is still a Misl, if even hijacked by the modern power hungry Pardhans (mind you, largely as a result of the mistreatment of others by Jatts, who over the past 100 years following upward mobility under the British Raj consider themselves to be the elite). It is a shame that the majority of so-called Ramgharia institutions have accepted the perverted accounts of this prestigious institution as authentic and denied the true root of the Tarna Dal Misl and hence allowed this to be reduced to a sub-caste.

Gur Fateh!

[mann_kaum_layee_qurbaan]

"Tarna Dal Misl and hence allowed this to be reduced to a sub-caste."

i thought you said it was not a caste, and then in the end you say it has been reduced to a sub-caste, meaning it was a higher caste before. Don't you mean sub-misl?

[bsbk123]

Waheguroo Jee Ka Khalsa!

Waheguroo Jee Kee Fateh!!

Thanks to Sikh Sangat here bcoz I never knew that Ramgarhia is actually name of a group of Khalsa Army.

In India, Ramgarhias are mostly known the sikhs who are in wood work profession, building construction workers etc. In Delhi they are having one RAMGARHIA BANK from where they provide bank loans on less rate of interest to Ramgarhia community people. They also prefer Ramgarhia community people for the jobs in bank. I think after every two years election are held for the various management posts in Banks where only Ramgarhia community people caste their votes. They got different rituals then the normal Sikhs in India wrt. marriage, death etc. They do not go out of their community wrt their kids marriage.

I hope SPGC/ DSGPC will do the needful in this matter.

As we knows any body can break the single stick but not the bundle of sticks. I really do ardassa to guru sahib charan to give unity (ekta) in our Panth so no body can dare to break us.

bhulla chuk dee maufi

Waheguroo Jee Ka Khalsa!

Waheguroo Jee Kee Fateh!!

[Niranjana]

bsbk sahib(a)

Gur Fateh!

Woodworkers, or carpenters, are actually called "Tarkhans" in Punjabi which is itself a caste, just as "Lohars" (metal-workers) are, whilst large numbers of Tarkhans and Lohars formed part of the Ramgharia Misl under the command of Jassa Singh (Ramgharia), it is known, as indicated earlier that the Misl was actually formed by a Jatt.

Moreover, whilst artisan castes (tarkans, lohars etc) may have been in the majority, there is clear evidence to this day that Jatts and Khatris were and are also part of this Ramgharia Misl.

No one is seeking to challenge Ekta here, why are we confusing issues. If this is the first time you've heard of the Ramgharia Misl orginating from an Army, I suggest you read your history concerning the Misldar period, the Tarna Dal and Buddha Dal split and the presence of the Ramgharia Boonga at Amritsar (also look at the history of the Ram Rauni fort).

mann_kaum_layee_qurbaan, I hear what you're saying, I will concede that the choice of words is perhaps misleading, by sub-caste I did not mean high or low, but that the term "Ramgharia" refers to the Misl forged under the Ram Rauni Fortress, however owing to various factors during the Sikh Raj and British Raj, it has been treated as a caste group.

For the record, those who do pride themselves on caste, let;s make it clear Jatts, Tarkhans, Lohars etc all work with their hands and hence are technically "Sudras" insofar as the Caste System is concerned, so let's not get too concerned about the caste ladder!

Ramgharia is Misl, with much in the way of heritage, however since the hey day of

Jassa Singh Ramgharia, systematic attempts to attack this misl have helped reduce it to the present state, hence comments such as "it is not a big part of our history" are hardly surprising on this forum.

If one reads census reports, terms such as Nihang also appear as caste groups, we can hardly rely on such means as these reports or modern matrimonial ads to define historical terms.

Gur Fateh!

[Deep Singh]

Niranjana jee, Hari jee, and others...

i have read about Misl period...but i feel i know too little. what i like to know is the whether the different Misls were related to different states or villages...like which Misl belonged to Amritsar area?

and were ALL Sikhs who lived in those days divided into Misls or are these only some internal Nihang divisions? As all those who were Nihangs were divided into Misla while "other Sikhs" lets say those who did get baptised but did not consider themselves Nihang were they also divided into Misls?

thanks for helping out. and i also read on that site that Jassa Singh jee Ramgarhia was actually Jassa Singh Thoka, a Tarkhan in these Hindu/Indian castes...and he changed his name to Ramgarhia...

http://<banned site filter activated>/movements/a...a-ramgarhia.htm

and also why where these 12 misls created at the first place? (actually there were 11 as one misl was kicked out; the Phulkian lead by Baba Ala Singh)

[bsbk123]

Waheguroo Jee Ka Khalsa!

Waheguroo Jee Kee Fateh!!

Niranjana Jee and Deep Singh Jee thanks for your wisdom on this issue.

Niranjana Jee I am not trying to confuse the things rather I tried to tell what actually going on in India sikh society. But if u feel so I would really apologise for it jee.

bhulla chukka dee dovo _/\_ jorh kai maufai

Waheguroo Jee Ka Khalsa!

Waheguroo Jee Kee Fateh!!

[Niranjana]

Bhai Sahib(a),

Gur Fateh! No need to apologise, you presented a good account of what is going on and no offence is taken from that!

Thanks for your kind words.

Gur Fateh!