~! Danger Of Bhausaria Mindset In The Panth !~

[akal sahai]

Its hard to Differentiate a bibi wearing a patka or chunni with a muslim women. Where as a Babi wearing a dastar, you can tell straight away she is a singni of Guru Gobing Singh

This is not true because Muslims wear turbans, Christans and Jews used to wear Turbans. And how many Sikhs today are being confused to being a Muslim, no matter what Pugh or Patkha style you wear? Go to any Islamic country (where sikhi is not known) and the Muslims would even think your Muslim.

The Dastarah/Turbans were worn by Warriors in battle because it protecting them from blows to the head. When Guru Har Gobind started the Akali movement Guru Ji asked them to wear Turbans.

Now what im going to say is controversial to most Sikhs on this forum. Guru Nanak used to wear a topi (Hat). If you see old pictures of Guru Nanak Dev Ji he is seen wearing a Seli topi which is worn by Holy men but im guessing im not going to get anyone agreeing with me because "old pictures theses days there are considered Anti-Sikh". And Shia Muslims have soo much love for Guru Nanak and think of Guru Ji as a great Sufi Saint.

when we talk about turbans we talk about dumaleh, wiv oucha bungeh, muslims christians and jews dont wear this style. Nor do they wear farleh or shaster in their dumaleh. So if u went to a muslm country i doubt they would think ur muslim wiv a dumalah and dumaleh shastar. Muslims wear turbans sikhs wear dumaleh, i see a difference, you might not.

[ghorandhar]

Just wanted to share latest video by bhai baljinder singh ji rara sahib talking bit about bhausaria mindset how they think "vikayaran" is one and only one way to interpret gurbani.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E380dkqPEeI

Its amazing how gurbani viakaran is being presented as being used to prove bhagat bani as being against gurbani, unless I missunderstood, this is the suggestion being made by the speaker.

Maybe people should pick up a gurbani viakaran book before they make such assertions. It was prof Sahib Singh jee who answered the book, 'satgur bina hor kachi bani'. Prof Sahib Singh jee showed how gurbani viakaran shows that bhagat bani does not contradict the Gurus shabads. The Ludhiana Sabha which was created to prove and take bhagat bani out of the Guru Granth Sahib had no answer to Prof Sahib Singh jee.

But Bhai Sahib jee makes a good point about our identity and our dastar. However I feel deprevation is also contributing to a failure in Sikh youth taking up a gursikhi roop. When people stuggle to have enough money for roti or keep eating aloo or dal everyday, people only see education as a way out of this cycle of poverty. parchar is needed but the paanth should also have done more to combat poverty, living in pinds ive seen this first hand. If the paanth did this, both the hearts and minds of people would be won. Instead what happens is these sants rob people of the little money they have because they claim to be able to solve their problems. Or like Sant malkiat Singh jee, they become property dealers telling us what we can do and what we cant. When someone like me and my chacha jee stand up to such sants, they curse our family saying everything will go wrong for us. These sants are part of the problem. Those true sants have been a bad name by the majority.

[Matheen]

Its amazing how gurbani viakaran is being presented as being used to prove bhagat bani as being against gurbani, unless I missunderstood, this is the suggestion being made by the speaker.

I think both you and Namastang may have misunderstood Bhai Sahib. He's talking about a group of people who want to change the spellings in Gurbani, citing viakaran as their reason. I think that speech is a few years old - I remember that the group (don't recall their name) actually printed a few Gutkey Sahibs with revised spellings. That, I'm sure you'll agree, is just wrong.

Bhai Baljinder Singh Ji is actually well educated and in fact developed the www.rarasahib.com website himself, and personally replies to e-mails sent there if he has time.

Instead what happens is these sants rob people of the little money they have because they claim to be able to solve their problems. Or like Sant malkiat Singh jee, they become property dealers telling us what we can do and what we cant. When someone like me and my chacha jee stand up to such sants, they curse our family saying everything will go wrong for us. These sants are part of the problem. Those true sants have been a bad name by the majority.

I hope you're not referring to all the Mahapursh on that stage? As far as Bhai Baljinder Singh ji is concerned, I know that the Maryada at Rarasahib absolutely forbids asking for money. I know one of the Mahapurkhs sitting towards the back, and they are a true gem of the panth, a true Sant. I can't speak for the rest but you are right that true Sants are very few in number in this age.

[N30S1NGH]

Its amazing how gurbani viakaran is being presented as being used to prove bhagat bani as being against gurbani, unless I missunderstood, this is the suggestion being made by the speaker.

Maybe people should pick up a gurbani viakaran book before they make such assertions. It was prof Sahib Singh jee who answered the book, 'satgur bina hor kachi bani'. Prof Sahib Singh jee showed how gurbani viakaran shows that bhagat bani does not contradict the Gurus shabads. The Ludhiana Sabha which was created to prove and take bhagat bani out of the Guru Granth Sahib had no answer to Prof Sahib Singh jee.

All though prof sahib singh also one of the member spoke against bhausaria mindset(taking out bhagata di bani) by using vaikhayaran. When you carefully read his book, you will his approach was quite extreme.. its like bhausarias were at one extreme, prof sahib singh were at other extreme rejecting all the notions bhausaria raised on bhagatat's socio-religious life.. instead of answering these delusion people sansa's(dubtas), prof sahib singh start rejecting bhagat'as socio-relgious life (uthanka)/ their mysticism instead start promoting his own metaphoric interpertations of gurbani and claimed this is only one way to interpret gurbani. Puratan samparda's and including panthic ratan- bhai vir singh ji also spoke against bhausaria's but they spoke against bhausaria staying within the limit of Gurmat Sidhant, they did not rejected key factors (concept of sargun/nirgun, concept of avtar, various deeper interpertations in bhagata di bani) in sikh theology nor they made sikhi distored just because they have to counter bhausaria's.

I say it again..i m not promotiong vikayaran shouldnt be used at all but i do beleive people who beleive in vikayaran is the one and only way to interpreet gurbani and counter arguments bhausarias had against bhagata di bani are infact doing same damage as bhausaria's are doing.. here is the clear cut example.... once there was a maharaj was taking rest on his bed and his servant duty was to make sure there is no flies or mosquitos going around and bugging him in his sleep....after few minutes,.. flies came to bug his king.. start sitting on king's nose and making noises...servant tried to get rid of flies by various ways,, at last he became soo angry that he thought of using talvar(sword) to kill the fly who was sitting on his king's nose.. he tried killing the fly with his "GOOD INTENTION" but killed the king instead.

so khalsa ji having good intention is not the only thing you need to fight dangerous mindset but you need bibek buddhi which people who are on both extremes lack.

[N30S1NGH]

matheen veer ji, as far i understood bhai sahib ji, he is saying in punjabi - aaj bhi gurbani nuo vikayaran di sangal naal banadan di koshish kita ja rahi hai which translates to a) even to this day, people are tying depth of gurbani via ropes of vikayaran only ie- interpertating gurbani via vikayaran only then he further shed light on b) how vikayaran is "also" used to change laaga matra's in gurbani.

Prof sahib singh was guilty of above point a) which bhai sahib baljinder singh ji mentioned.. i m not too sure if he was also guilty of changing laga matra's in gurbani.

[ghorandhar]

Its amazing how gurbani viakaran is being presented as being used to prove bhagat bani as being against gurbani, unless I missunderstood, this is the suggestion being made by the speaker.

I think both you and Namastang may have misunderstood Bhai Sahib. He's talking about a group of people who want to change the spellings in Gurbani, citing viakaran as their reason. I think that speech is a few years old - I remember that the group (don't recall their name) actually printed a few Gutkey Sahibs with revised spellings. That, I'm sure you'll agree, is just wrong.

Bhai Baljinder Singh Ji is actually well educated and in fact developed the www.rarasahib.com website himself, and personally replies to e-mails sent there if he has time.

Instead what happens is these sants rob people of the little money they have because they claim to be able to solve their problems. Or like Sant malkiat Singh jee, they become property dealers telling us what we can do and what we cant. When someone like me and my chacha jee stand up to such sants, they curse our family saying everything will go wrong for us. These sants are part of the problem. Those true sants have been a bad name by the majority.

I hope you're not referring to all the Mahapursh on that stage? As far as Bhai Baljinder Singh ji is concerned, I know that the Maryada at Rarasahib absolutely forbids asking for money. I know one of the Mahapurkhs sitting towards the back, and they are a true gem of the panth, a true Sant. I can't speak for the rest but you are right that true Sants are very few in number in this age.

Thank you Matheen jee, I did not know people were trying to change spellings, however there is alot of debate within the panth between different spellings in different Guru granth sahibs. But if printing is made wrong, that is for the guru panth khalsa to decide and take action, not individual people. So I agree this should not be done.

I also gave specific referance to a sant, but most of the sant ive come across (ive come across only a few good ones) fall into the category of taking money, cursing people and generally keeping people in fear. I have never met Bhai Baljinder Singh jee and have no intention to make comments of people I have never met. I was only writing from my own personal experience. My point of making this comment is that its not enough to just do parchar, sants in alot of places have become apart of the problem along with deprivation.

[ghorandhar]

Its amazing how gurbani viakaran is being presented as being used to prove bhagat bani as being against gurbani, unless I missunderstood, this is the suggestion being made by the speaker.

Maybe people should pick up a gurbani viakaran book before they make such assertions. It was prof Sahib Singh jee who answered the book, 'satgur bina hor kachi bani'. Prof Sahib Singh jee showed how gurbani viakaran shows that bhagat bani does not contradict the Gurus shabads. The Ludhiana Sabha which was created to prove and take bhagat bani out of the Guru Granth Sahib had no answer to Prof Sahib Singh jee.

All though prof sahib singh also one of the member spoke against bhausaria mindset(taking out bhagata di bani) by using vaikhayaran. When you carefully read his book, you will his approach was quite extreme.. its like bhausarias were at one extreme, prof sahib singh were at other extreme rejecting all the notions bhausaria raised on bhagatat's socio-religious life.. instead of answering these delusion people sansa's(dubtas), prof sahib singh start rejecting bhagat'as socio-relgious life (uthanka)/ their mysticism instead start promoting his own metaphoric interpertations of gurbani and claimed this is only one way to interpret gurbani. Puratan samparda's and including panthic ratan- bhai vir singh ji also spoke against bhausaria's but they spoke against bhausaria staying within the limit of Gurmat Sidhant, they did not rejected key factors (concept of sargun/nirgun, concept of avtar, various deeper interpertations in bhagata di bani) in sikh theology nor they made sikhi distored just because they have to counter bhausaria's.

I say it again..i m not promotiong vikayaran shouldnt be used at all but i do beleive people who beleive in vikayaran is the one and only way to interpreet gurbani and counter arguments bhausarias had against bhagata di bani are infact doing same damage as bhausaria's are doing.. here is the clear cut example.... once there was a maharaj was taking rest on his bed and his servant duty was to make sure there is no flies or mosquitos going around and bugging him in his sleep....after few minutes,.. flies came to bug his king.. start sitting on king's nose and making noises...servant tried to get rid of flies by various ways,, at last he became soo angry that he thought of using talvar(sword) to kill the fly who was sitting on his king's nose.. he tried killing the fly with his "GOOD INTENTION" but killed the king instead.

so khalsa ji having good intention is not the only thing you need to fight dangerous mindset but you need bibek buddhi which people who are on both extremes lack.

I think Prof Sahib Singh jee clearly says that this is the knowledge of gurbani viakaran or interpretation I have at this moment. He clearly says that someone else can continue this project, A humble thing to say in my mind, he does not say this is the only way. Another example is the Raag mala, Prof Sahib jee clearly says he does not really understand it but does not reject it. So I dont think Prof Sahib ever said that my interpretation is final. The other thing to note is Bhai Vir Singh jees translation being clearly similar to viakaran (as ive shown in a different post). There is also Bhai Vir Singh jees Guru GRanth sahib Kosh which specifically use's referance to grammatical terms. So I do not really understand why people try and seperate people like Prof Sahib Singh jee and Bhai Vir singh jee. Personally I do not think prof Sahib Singh went out of gurmat sidhant or atleast from reading all his books and his interpretation of the Guru granth Sahib jee, ive not come across such a suggestion. What people like Prof Sahib Singh, Bhai Vir Singh jee, Sant baba gurbachan Singh jee do is give a great source of understanding gurbani. Where Prof Sahib Singh is different from the others is his definite answers to grammatical matters which without, would leave the panth with no answers from linguists and other people who question the method used by Guru jee, often offensive words such as illiterate were used.

Personally I think we should take what we can from all the bidwan rather than splitting people into samparda or giving ligitimacy due to the name of the samparda (rather than what the person actually wrote or believes). Where I agree with Sant Gurbachan Singh jee I would take that on board, where with Bhai Vir Singh jee I will take that. So I agree with your belief (if I understood correctly) which is to look at what all people have written and not specifically say one is correct and the rest is all wrong. However, where we make comments of viakaran or question it, the best way to have a healthy discussion is to identify where specifically (for example a shabad or particular rule) that grammar does not make sense and not just to make comments that viakaran is changing laaga matra or that gurbani viakaran is wrong. The question is how? and Where? personally I would like to know so that I can also learn something new, without discussing what exactly is wrong with grammar, like what shabad or what rule of grammar makes no sense, how can we firmly say there is something wrong with it? Making comments without substance or proof will convince no one.

I was listening to khata by Bhai Kulwant Singh jee (Ludhiana) and he said something about the interpretation of a particular word, he said these things are for us to discuss and not to fight over (but to try and understand), but when we are on the stage, our aim should be how to make the sangat a Sikh and not start doing tu tu maih maih about each other. I feel that today, both sides can be guilty of such things.

[Charandhoor Singh]

That katha is a real eye opener, some great Bachans by Baba Baljinder Singh, words of truth. All Sikhs should take note.

[Charandhoor Singh]

Dr Anurag Singh, Director 'Sikh Itihas Board', SGPC, speaks on the contemporary issues related to Sri Dasam Granth Sahib. (son of Bhao Tarlochan Singh who I believe was a close associate of Bhai Randeer Singh)

Mentions history, problems and contemporary descendents of the Bhasauriai ideology.

http://video.google.co.uk/videoplay?docid=...ihang&hl=en

[Charandhoor Singh]

Speaks about all the different agencies and schools of thought and individuals attacking Adi Sri Guru granth sahib ji, dasam bani, bhai gurdas deea varaan... etc. Different organisations attacking differnt bania.