Older Generation Have Created Confusion, Leaving Us Looking Like Hindus Pretending To Be Sikhs

[one love kaur]

I think the story of Dhanna Bhagat explains a lot about the contradictions in our faith. i.e we are against idol worship but he found God through worshiping a stone. The meaning must be that you can find God through any path or way if you have complete love and faith in what you are doing and you do it with a clean heart.

Like if a Giani is reading the paat at the Gurdwara and he is just doing it for wages, then you have a person unschooled in religious thought but he is worshipping something and treating it as God himself/herself then who has the better chance of reaching the ONE. Surely the person with 'sharda.' Knowledge is useless, all that you learn must be unlearnt, all you need to know is the ONE and you dont have to look far to find Him/her. Ek Onkar doesnt exist in Gurudwaras, Mandirs, churches or mosques. The creator doesnt reside in words and scriptures although they may point you in a certain direction. Repeating words like a parrot wont give us enlightenment. This whole 'Waheguru Waheguru' repition, None of the Gurus even used the word in the Guru Granth Sahib I dont think. Guru Nanak just sang about love, nature, merging with the Ultimate. He travelled everywhere, met all kinds of people of all back grounds, what some would rudely call 'manmukhs.' He didnt look for God in a building, he was a rationalist. He said 'why should I wear a janeo when you can buy it in the market place, it will not go with me to the next world,' amazingly we treat a kirpan as a modern janeo. Unless a kirpan is used in defence of the meek, it is just as useless as a janeo.

All of our Gurudwaras are split into caste groups, 95% of Sikhs only marry into their castes. That means mentally we are still hanging on to our Hindu past. So maybe we are not that different.

We put food in front of Guru Granth Sahib? Like Hindus do infront of idols. A very high percentage of us have never read Gurubabi but we bow before it like its an idol. Most of the Sikhs have pictures of the Sikh Gurus in our homes, when it is meant to be against our faith.

The more I learn about our faith the more it seems to have been twisted by political Sikhs for their own benefit. Dont do this, dont do that, dont eat with them or speak to so and so.

The Akal Takhat is a joke, the Akalis are a joke, all the jathe bandia are busy trying to make personal gain. The saints are gathering chela.

Its a pretty bad state of play, I am currently writing a paper on Sikhism and the political influence of the corrupt for uni, its about 80 pages long and I will post it one here.

I am just confused by the people who preach our faith, they seem to be lying to make ground for themselves or for their groups, maybe its time some younger intelectuals got together and studied Sikhi and came up with some frsh perspectives because the older generation have failed us. Before too long we might be able to come up with a thousand theories why Sikhs are distinct but in reality it will be proven that we have the same practices as Hindus, they just vary slightly and are denied outwardly. Our generation need to step up.

[Balait_da_Sher]

I think you are trying to see everything as Black or White, when in reality that does not work with majority of the things. for example, some people work hard, goto school, uni and then end up working 9 -5 in an office, where as others who dont have a lot of education but work hard and own successful businesses. So if we looked at the latter, it would imply that education is redundant.

Following a belief system requires a certain amount of faith. People say science is different but that also requires a certain amount of uncertainty, which really is the equivelant of faith to me.

Most of your post, is stating the obvious and i will agree to it, while the practises of others in our religion make the reilgion seem like mishmash of other religion, what matters is how we practise our faith. Dont look at others, try to change your self.

Finally, Dhanna, did a lot of bhagti while living the life ofa householder. He may have treated the stone as god but his good actions and rememberance of god is what made him found god. The difference between that and the idol worship is that in the idol worship people believe that just by worshipping, fasting one can find god but it has to be combined with good actions. IF you do that you are doing "Kirat and Naam japna" and when you are doing those you can treat mobile fone as god and your call will be answered.

[one love kaur]

balait da sher

thanks for that reply, well put. I like the line about the mobile phone.....your call will be answered!! excellent

[OhTwadi]

shrimaan bhagat kabeer jee sums up your feelings in one tuk. sadly, this tuk comes to mind these days when i read other's views a lot more than it used to. satguru ji kirpa karan

kbIr dInu gvwieAw dunI isau dunI n cwlI swiQ ]

kabeer dheen gavaaeiaa dhunee sio dhunee n chaalee saathh ||

Kabeer, the mortal loses his faith, for the sake of the world, but the world shall not go along with him in the end.

pwie kuhwVw mwirAw gwPil ApunY hwiQ ]13]

paae kuhaarraa maariaa gaafal apunai haathh ||13||

The <banned word filter activated> strikes his own foot with the axe by his own hand. ||13||

[SaRpAnCh]

One Love Kaur, the kirpan is not a modern Jinoo it is a symbol of courage justice dignity and kirpa,it has practical uses as well,what practical use does a string such as a Hindu jinoo have?None?

Guru Granth Sahib Ji,or Sikhism NEVER contradicts its self!i

We/Our practices in REALITY are nothing like Hindu practices or the Hindu way of life,let me quote a guy in the media 'Our language is differnet ,our culture is different, our religion is different'

I agree the Akal Thakt has become a Joke at this point in time,as fools run it,sants are the same,but we are not Hindus,and there is nothing wrong with having pictures of Gurus in our homes,as long as we don't worship them.

[Mehtab Singh]

I think the story of Dhanna Bhagat explains a lot about the contradictions in our faith. i.e we are against idol worship but he found God through worshiping a stone.

Here is what Bhagat Dhanna jee says in Gurbani

Awsw bwxI Bgq DMny jI kI

aasaa baanee bhagath dhha(n)nae jee kee

Aasaa, The Word Of Devotee Dhanna Jee:

<> siqgur pRswid ]

ik oa(n)kaar sathigur prasaadh ||

One Universal Creator God. By The Grace Of The True Guru:

BRmq iPrq bhu jnm iblwny qnu mnu Dnu nhI DIry ]

bhramath firath bahu janam bilaanae than man dhhan nehee dhheerae ||

I wandered through countless incarnations, but mind, body and wealth never remain stable.

lwlc ibKu kwm lubD rwqw min ibsry pRB hIry ]1] rhwau ]

laalach bikh kaam lubadhh raathaa man bisarae prabh heerae ||1|| rehaao ||

Attached to, and stained by the poisons of sexual desire and greed, the mind has forgotten the jewel of the Lord. ||1||Pause||

ibKu Pl mIT lgy mn baury cwr ibcwr n jwinAw ]

bikh fal meet(h) lagae man bourae chaar bichaar n jaaniaa ||

The poisonous fruit seems sweet to the demented mind, which does not know the difference between good and evil.

gun qy pRIiq bFI An BWqI jnm mrn iPir qwinAw ]1]

gun thae preeth badtee an bhaa(n)thee janam maran fir thaaniaa ||1||

Turning away from virtue, his love for other things increases, and he weaves again the web of birth and death. ||1||

jugiq jwin nhI irdY invwsI jlq jwl jm PMD pry ]

jugath jaan nehee ridhai nivaasee jalath jaal jam fa(n)dhh parae ||

He does not know the way to the Lord, who dwells within his heart; burning in the trap, he is caught by the noose of death.

ibKu Pl sMic Bry mn AYsy prm purK pRB mn ibsry ]2]

bikh fal sa(n)ch bharae man aisae param purakh prabh man bisarae ||2||

Gathering the poisonous fruits, he fills his mind with them, and he forgets God, the Supreme Being, from his mind. ||2||

igAwn pRvysu gurih Dnu dIAw iDAwnu mwnu mn eyk mey ]

giaan pravaes gurehi dhhan dheeaa dhhiaan maan man eaek meae ||

The Guru has given the wealth of spiritual wisdom; practicing meditation, the mind becomes one with Him.

pRym Bgiq mwnI suKu jwinAw iqRpiq AGwny mukiq Bey ]3]

praem bhagath maanee sukh jaaniaa thripath aghaanae mukath bheae ||3||

Embracing loving devotional worship for the Lord, I have come to know peace; satisfied and satiated, I have been liberated. ||3||

joiq smwie smwnI jw kY AClI pRBu pihcwinAw ]

joth samaae samaanee jaa kai ashhalee prabh pehichaaniaa ||

One who is filled with the Divine Light, recognizes the undeceivable Lord God.

DMnY Dnu pwieAw DrxIDru imil jn sMq smwinAw ]4]1]

dhha(n)nai dhhan paaeiaa dhharaneedhhar mil jan sa(n)th samaaniaa ||4||1||

Dhanna has obtained the Lord, the Sustainer of the World, as his wealth; meeting the humble Saints, he merges in the Lord. ||4||1||

He isn't saying anywhere that he attained God through idol worship. Notice how he says "The Guru has given the wealth of spiritual wisdom; practicing meditation, the mind becomes one with Him", implying that he attained God through bakshish of the Guru. Now note how he details the method by which he attained God: "Embracing loving devotional worship for the Lord, I have come to know peace; satisfied and satiated, I have been liberated". And what did he end up getting? "Dhanna has obtained the Lord, the Sustainer of the World, as his wealth; meeting the humble Saints, he merges in the Lord". So as far as Gurbani is concerned, Bhagat Dhanna jee doesn't advocate, encourage or justify idol worship anywhere.

The meaning must be that you can find God through any path or way if you have complete love and faith in what you are doing and you do it with a clean heart

Thats a very good thought and I am not disagreeing with it at all, but if that is used to justify the things Gurujee has spoken out against, then I might add that love minus knowledge doesn't remain love for long, it becomes a ritual. For example, I love God and I find a tree thats very beautiful. I start worshipping the tree, thinking "God probably looks like this tree". Now one day I happen to miss my "prayer", and a pigeon on the tree drops its "dump" on me, and I see it as a punishment from God for missing my prayer. What would happen next? I would make sure I pray daily because I don't want to get stained everyday. Now where is the love? All I am left with is a ritual, because I lack knowledge.

Knowledge is useless, all that you learn must be unlearnt, all you need to know is the ONE and you dont have to look far to find Him/her

Worldly knowledge that creates ego and leads one away from God is the one that needs to be "unlearnt" if one has to attain God. But otherwise Gurujee never said anything against what we refer to as Gyaan.

This whole 'Waheguru Waheguru' repition

Try it and find out for yourself, experience it, live it, and do it with love. Then maybe this "meaningless" repetition will make a lot more sense :lol:

None of the Gurus even used the word in the Guru Granth Sahib I dont think

Vaaheguroo is mentioned 17 times in Sahib Sri Guru Granth Sahib Jee, and all 17 times its by the Bhagats. So yes you are right about the Gurus not mentioning it.

amazingly we treat a kirpan as a modern janeo. Unless a kirpan is used in defence of the meek, it is just as useless as a janeo

First you might need to look into the historical origins of the janeu and the kirpan. Janeu is a symbol of who is high and who is low. A Brahmin, a Kshatriya, and a Vaishya, the 3 so-called "upper castes" wear different types of janeu, so that they can be distinguished as higher or lower. And kirpan? Kirpan equates all Sikhs of the Guru as all Amritdharis are supposed to wear it. Gurujee never said that a particular "type" of Sikh should wear a particular "type" of kirpan. All the 5 kakaars were blessed equally to everyone. There can't be any remote comparison between a janeu and a kirpan. And we were blessed with kirpan to uphold not only our honor, but that of others as well.

All of our Gurudwaras are split into caste groups, 95% of Sikhs only marry into their castes. That means mentally we are still hanging on to our Hindu past. So maybe we are not that different

Is that Sikhi's fault or our own drawback?

We put food in front of Guru Granth Sahib? Like Hindus do infront of idols

I don't think I've ever seen that.

A very high percentage of us have never read Gurubabi but we bow before it like its an idol

I don't it would be a good idea to speak for the majority unless you've met atleast half of the 25 million Sikhs in the world . And about bowing, we don't bow to it considering it an idol. We bow before the Divine Word. Our Guru is Gurbani, Bani Guru, Guru Hai Bani. Also, Gurujee said He resides in Bani, I don't think any Hindu deity made such a claim about a particular idol of theirs. So again, idol worship and bowing to Sahib Sri Guru Granth Sahib Jee can't be compared.

Most of the Sikhs have pictures of the Sikh Gurus in our homes, when it is meant to be against our faith

Its worshipping pictures that we are against. Keeping them to remind us of Gurujee is not a bad idea.

The more I learn about our faith the more it seems to have been twisted by political Sikhs for their own benefit. Dont do this, dont do that, dont eat with them or speak to so and so

Again, whose fault is that? Sikhi's? Or a certain individuals?

The Akal Takhat is a joke

I wouldn't ever say that, inspite of the fact the present Sikh leadership isn't the best one. Sri Akal Takht is a blessing of the sixth Guru, Sahib Sri Guru Hargobind Jee Maharaj, and no Sikh would ever want to say a word against its glory.

Penji I am myself a learner, and have only merely tried to address few of your concerns. May Gurujee forgive me if I have said anything wrong, and please forgive me if anything I said offended you, as that is not what I intended to do.

[one love kaur]

Mehtab Singh

great reply, I might use some of that in my work, really well balanced reply.

Sarpanch,

no offence paji I am not going to reply to you after this because I have seen some of your other posts. They are full of hatred against other religions and leaders of Gurudwaras, I just want people who will respect the concept of debate. Please dont get offended I dont want an argument.

ps Am I out of turn,am I the only one who finds many of Sarpanchs post very anti Sikhi and pro hatred?

[guptveer1469]

sarpanch bhaji is right

he is against hindustanis and so-called jathedars

he is no anti-sikh

he is VERY sikh

he has same thoughts as me

[chatanga]

The Bhagat Dhanna sakhi focuses more on Bhagat Jee worshipping a stone, whereas it should focus more on his bhagati of God , in the current beleief of the times that God was a stone. Remember that a brahman gave him a worthless stone which he claimed was God, in return for a cow. Bhagat Jee in his innocence made this exchange, becasue he wanted darshan and God knowing that Bhagat Jee was really depserate for his Darshan, gave it to him.

[Jai Tegang!]

"one love kaur" I really urge you to not write any papers or anything else on Sikhism until you grasp some basic concepts.

from reading your post, it's clear you haven't had good sangat ( don't feel I'm trying to run you down).

Mehtab Singh gave some nice quick replies, and I hope you read them and then continue your learning experience with this online sangat. Try bringing one point at a time because aswering so many points can result in less attention to certain points.

for example, someone who says "This whole 'Waheguru Waheguru' repition....", my God! for some of us it's difficult to just read soemthing like that coming from a fellow Sikh.

Repeating Vaheguru is the highest action of man.

Another reoccuring issue in your post was our relationship to hinduism. This is a very big subject to grasp because (i think) you are trying to view Sikhism like a semitic faith. To understand our relationship with hinduism you will need to patiently hear some things, keeping an open mind. The easy (and wrong) answer is what we're accustomed to, "Hinduism is cr** and we have nothing in common".

You will need to understand what Hinduism really is, who Guru Nanak really is, in essence you'll need to understand the 'bigger picture'. Neither do I have the time to explain(from what I know), nor will you be able to digest it in one go.

My biggest worry, judging from your remarks, is that you are on path of spiritual destruction. I say this because i have seen a few people with the same type of thinking as yourself, completely lose faith or turn into bitter athiests. To yourself, you may be 'trying to save sikhi', but in reality you're spiraling away from sikhi by the minute.

Just calm yourself. Think of yourself as a complete <banned word filter activated>, a complete useless being, completely unknowledgeable of sikhi. Then start by going to the gurdwara to see the Guru. Your task is to see the Guru and the perfect Sangat(as a whole). Ignore all things negative. Don't look at the messy bathroom, the chatting bibia, the cobweb in the window curtains. Concentrate on the Guru and his perfect sangat. Make yourself believe that yor are imperfect and wish to become like the sangat sitting in Guruji's presence.

I haven't really answered any of your points raised, but ifelt you needed to hear the above. Questions are millions and never ending, concentrate more on correcting your mindset. The True Perfect Guru's True Sikhi is beyond question and Perfect, we just lack patience and humility to understand it.

Sorry if any of this sounded harsh, just giving my words of advice.