Parents/children

[dalsingh101]

Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa Waheguru Ji Ke Fateh

Accepting is the hardest of all in what you say Dal Singh101 Jeeo, so easily said but stigma attached is so great.

Our own Sikh community are the biggest threat to Sikhism and its heritage , no one else due to it being so immature.

The stigma you talk about - the same idiots are ones that are likely to stigmatise the community further by honour killings when things go off the beaten track. The way I see it, is that sometimes you just have to accept certain trends, like it or not. I'm sure that when Guru Hargobind initiated the militant side of Sikhi, plenty of people thought that this was wrong and a departure from protocol, but our own Guru's example shows how they adapted to a change in environment. The stigma will decrease over time because cracks are appearing in our society already. We all know that even prominent families have hidden issues that they sweep under the rug. Soon, all of us will be affected by these issues - it is inevitable for those in diaspora unless we take the Amish route and segregate ourselves completely from wider society. Seeing as every Sikh is concerned with money making and the fact that the whole reason they immigrated outside of Punjab was for money, Sikh are unlikely to do this in my view.

Put simply we will have to accept a diverse community, of all shapes and hues. Better we accept this now and try and guide the panth as it will be - not how we wish it to be. I guess we will always have our conservatives, radicals, lax, spiritually inclined, warriors etc. We are just need to grow up and learn to accept this. The people who don't I imagine will find themselves slowly becoming more isolated. How many generations do you think we will last in the UK for instance before the prevailing culture makes serious headways into the community (if it hasn't already!!). The whole system here is designed to absorb immigrants anyway and besides Muslims, they are doing quite well.

I do however think that Canadian Sikhs are more likely to be able to keep a strong community (than the UK) but they need to address the drug and "gangsta" problems out first.

Does this make any sense to you? LOL

[mukh]

Hold up here...I disagree....It's easier to say "What's wrong with kids these days?"...rather than accept that everyone is like this when they are kids...I remember when I was a kid and how i used to do Shrarta and get punished for it and then do it again LOL

The generation before us....our parents were just as rebellious when they were growing up in their teens and early adulthood age...I don't know on what basis anyone is saying that children are ruder now than they were in the past. It's a part of growing up people, everyone is a child once and learns only by making mistakes and through guidance.

And our parents didn't go to Sikhi camps or anything and they probably didn't get any "talks" (they just got smacked lol)....they learnt everything from School (Khalsa schools etc.)...but nowadays in abroad (and in Punjab) we aren't taught Sikhi in schools so it should be a credit to those of us who go out of there way to learn about Sikhi and go to the weekend Sikhi classes and Sikhi camps.

I agree that times are changing, people have less time for family, etc. but still lets be realistic when making such statements as "the children are so ignorant and have attitude problems". THEY'RE CHILDREN...teach our younger generation about our Great Gurus, our Shaheeds, and Guru Ji's Gurbani :WW: ....with Waheguru's kirpa they will sooner or later begin to realize the Sikhi way of life. :T:

Bhul Chuk Di Mafi

WJKK WJKF

[navjit6]

All kids to shrarta, and that is a part of growing up. But there is a huge difference in what was dont say 30 years ago and what is done now. 30 years ago, would punjabi kids go out clubbing, would they get addicted to alcohol at like the age of 15, would they have girlfriends/boyfriends. Hardly anyone and look today. Have a look at general teenagers these days and just look at their attitude.This is not just with punjabis but with westerners aswell. Ask any westerner about what they think of the kids of today? There is a huge difference. Its all in how you bring your kids up. The kid offcourse is going to make mistakes on the way, do stupid things, but if they have been brought up well then it will show when they are older, and if they havent been brought up well, that will also show, like it is showing in the world today.

Hold up here...I disagree....It's easier to say "What's wrong with kids these days?"...rather than accept that everyone is like this when they are kids...I remember when I was a kid and how i used to do Shrarta and get punished for it and then do it again LOL

The generation before us....our parents were just as rebellious when they were growing up in their teens and early adulthood age...I don't know on what basis anyone is saying that children are ruder now than they were in the past. It's a part of growing up people, everyone is a child once and learns only by making mistakes and through guidance.

And our parents didn't go to Sikhi camps or anything and they probably didn't get any "talks" (they just got smacked lol)....they learnt everything from School (Khalsa schools etc.)...but nowadays in abroad (and in Punjab) we aren't taught Sikhi in schools so it should be a credit to those of us who go out of there way to learn about Sikhi and go to the weekend Sikhi classes and Sikhi camps.

I agree that times are changing, people have less time for family, etc. but still lets be realistic when making such statements as "the children are so ignorant and have attitude problems". THEY'RE CHILDREN...teach our younger generation about our Great Gurus, our Shaheeds, and Guru Ji's Gurbani :WW: ....with Waheguru's kirpa they will sooner or later begin to realize the Sikhi way of life. :T:

Bhul Chuk Di Mafi

WJKK WJKF

[dalsingh101]

All kids to shrarta, and that is a part of growing up. But there is a huge difference in what was dont say 30 years ago and what is done now. 30 years ago, would punjabi kids go out clubbing, would they get addicted to alcohol at like the age of 15, would they have girlfriends/boyfriends. Hardly anyone and look today. Have a look at general teenagers these days and just look at their attitude.This is not just with punjabis but with westerners aswell. Ask any westerner about what they think of the kids of today? There is a huge difference. Its all in how you bring your kids up. The kid offcourse is going to make mistakes on the way, do stupid things, but if they have been brought up well then it will show when they are older, and if they havent been brought up well, that will also show, like it is showing in the world today.

So what are you saying? That the west has failed to raise their kids up right for a whole generation? Is this the result of increasing liberal attitudes and not beating the kids when they misbehave like they do in most of the third world ? LOL

[Manjot_13]

The beating part aint so true anymore almost all of my freinds have atleast got one beating from there parents, and most of em are good kids and are amritdhari.

[Ambrosia]

"

If you look at the majority of parents, i dont think they really realize the importance of being a parent and pretty much do as much as

western

parents do for their kids.

"

Excuse me? ----- Does this imply that western parents don't do much for their kids? I'm sorry to say, but that's a very bad "stereotype" to be applying there, and it has no place on a Sikh forum (who regard all as equals).

I know TONS of "perfect" families in the Western World. Parents who LOVE their kids to death, who help them with their homework, and make them a good 3 meals a day, who give them good clothes and a nurturing environment to allow them to grow with peace of mind, security, love, affection, and closeness among parents and children.

But, as many have already noted here; the children have a FREEWILL too. Sure, family environment can play a role, but I have seen those "perfect" family children becoming bad, and I've also seen children from broken druggie homes becoming scholars and very proper people. Kids/Teens/Young Adults, eventually make their own choices (and yes, listen to peers more too) in what they are going to do with their lives.

If you want to blame something; Blame all the hollywood or even bollywood films with all the half-naked girls dancing around, full of violence, crime and bad influence. Blame the changes in societies (west and east... cause I've heard some pretty bad stuff on both sides) that SOME parents (IE: NOT ALL) are not giving enough time to their children because they are too busy working for their big house and dream cars and MAYA. Blame people who model violence in their homes through spousal abuse. Blame lazy people who don't want to spend time with their kids, to listen to their trials and tribulations. And Finally, Blame ourselves for not being good role models to all those kids out there.

So, Waheguru ji ka khalsa, Waheguru ji ki Fateh.

Forgive me for anything bad.

[navjit6]

offcourse everyone is equal, but that has got nothing to do with how much they do for their kids. Some people work harder, some people less, that does not mean they are not equal. There parents do not mind if they drink/smoke at a young age, go partying, definitely have a girlfriend/boyfriend, practically westerner parents are saying that YOU CAN DO WHATEVER YOU WANT BECAUSE IT IS YOUR LIFE. And jsut look at the relationships between the parents and their kids. They move out (which is fair enough, depending on the circumstances), they might visit them now and again. But they do not really look after their parents, do they? when they are about 70 and cannot look after themselves properly they put them into nursing homes, as they are to BUSY to look after them. They take the easy option. I wouldnt say they are perfect. And that does not mean we are perfect either. far from it.

Offcourse the parents do stuff for their kids, because kids cannot look after themselves. Giving kids food, clothes, and love, that would be expected from any parent. Even poor people, do as much as they can for their kids. But after the kids grow up, how much do they care about there parents, and how much do the parents do for the kids. I agree some do, but the majority do not. My baba ji worked till just before 70, not for HIMSELF, but for the family. How many gore would do that, fair enough they would work, but would they work for their family, their kids, i dont think so. There is a massive difference between easterners and westerner parents, both have their advantages/disadvantages but i believe that the relationship between punjabi say son/father etc is much more then westerners. BUt many of us are becoming just like westerners if not worse.

You cannot blame violence and crime, before looking at WHY that has increased. Why do kids at the age of 14 go out at midnight to do graffiti, wag classes at high school to have a smoke, take knvies to school. It is all because the parents do not look after there kids enough. And that is the around the most important age you have to look after the kids. Becuase they do not know what is wrong/right and listen to friends, learn from tv/movies. Offcourse these things will effect the children, BUT IT IS THE PARENTS JOB TO PUT THEM ON TRACK AND TEACH THEM, and that is where i believe many parents fail. But it depends on your family's values and how you are brought up. A lot of movies have good messages in them, and a lot do not. It depends what each learns from a film. I enjoy watching films and no doubt most people would. When i see a film, some things i think are completely stupid, and others you can see the importance of family, love, friendship, etc. It depends what you take away from the film. Even from the bad films, you may not take anything away, but you could of just had a really good laugh, nothing wrong with it. And if the parents show children movies with say for example half naked girls when they are 13, whose fault is it? parents or kids. My dad dreamt of having a big house, nice cars, etc, BUT THERE IS NOTHING WRONG WITH THAT, if you also look after your kids and follow god's path. If you work hard enough and achieve it, then you pretty much deserve it. There is always going to be exceptions, but parents play the biggest role in what kind of person the kid becomes.

"

If you look at the majority of parents, i dont think they really realize the importance of being a parent and pretty much do as much as

western

parents do for their kids.

"

Excuse me? ----- Does this imply that western parents don't do much for their kids? I'm sorry to say, but that's a very bad "stereotype" to be applying there, and it has no place on a Sikh forum (who regard all as equals).

I know TONS of "perfect" families in the Western World. Parents who LOVE their kids to death, who help them with their homework, and make them a good 3 meals a day, who give them good clothes and a nurturing environment to allow them to grow with peace of mind, security, love, affection, and closeness among parents and children.

But, as many have already noted here; the children have a FREEWILL too. Sure, family environment can play a role, but I have seen those "perfect" family children becoming bad, and I've also seen children from broken druggie homes becoming scholars and very proper people. Kids/Teens/Young Adults, eventually make their own choices (and yes, listen to peers more too) in what they are going to do with their lives.

If you want to blame something; Blame all the hollywood or even bollywood films with all the half-naked girls dancing around, full of violence, crime and bad influence. Blame the changes in societies (west and east... cause I've heard some pretty bad stuff on both sides) that SOME parents (IE: NOT ALL) are not giving enough time to their children because they are too busy working for their big house and dream cars and MAYA. Blame people who model violence in their homes through spousal abuse. Blame lazy people who don't want to spend time with their kids, to listen to their trials and tribulations. And Finally, Blame ourselves for not being good role models to all those kids out there.

So, Waheguru ji ka khalsa, Waheguru ji ki Fateh.

Forgive me for anything bad.

[Ambrosia]

Navjit -

I'm sorry to say this... but you are way ***overgeneralizing*** to say that all western parents don't care for their kids, and children go out partying and drinking, grafitty-ing and staying out late... and that the parents don't care and say "it's your life".

I AM A GORI FROM THE WEST. This forum is not just for Punjabi or Eastern Sikhs. Please keep this in mind before you post things that has the potential to offend others.

Also, keep in mind that the word Western, equally applies to those Sikhs who are of Punjabi blood but born and/or brought up in the west.

Now, having said this; I am living proof that what you describe above is NOT the law. My father has worked VERY hard for his money, and he's given me the opportunity to attend private top-notch schools for at least 7 years of my educational career. He has been there through ALL my ups and downs ; any moment I can call him up and just talk stuff through; he won't yell and me and beat me EVER, he just guides me and he's open-minded enough that I won't why away from talking to him, if I have to talk to him about something serious. We have a lot of trust. And I have promised him, that I will always be there for him: in fact I come to my dad's home as often as humanly possible, just to spend time with him. He isn't practicing religious, but I am! He's not even Sikh, so - it didn't come from him. BUT, he gave me so many other things - and I could keep bragging that I have the best father on Earth... He's never beaten me, never forced me into anything, never yelled or GRRed at me. Instead he made me make my own decisions, by asking "Now, do you think this would be good for you?" and naturally I would choose the right decision because deep down we KNOW what is right, and naturally I wanted to make him happy also. Anyway... I could go on....

I don't party, I don't do drugs, and I don't drink or stay out late. AND - I know a big majority (in my circle of friends and acquaintances) that don't either. and Who are totally against of putting their parents in nursing homes. People who are very calm, and well-meaning people. Who volunteer for their communities at call centers or recreational centers, or give blood. Who talk about ways to reduce their damage to the environment (reducing garbage, composting, being ecological)... People who are activists for human and animal rights... and people who highly respect their parents, and their elders. People who sacrifice their seats to complete strangers on buses and trains. People who give free food (like langar) from their own pockets, to homeless people.

Now, you might not notice all these positive people out there, these angels in disguise. Why? Because all you hear about, and all you focus on... is the negative cases. But, if those negative cases were the "norm" as you seem to believe, there would be no one to run these western countries that everyone is trying to immigrate to.

Enough for now,

Ambrosia

Waheguru ji ka Khalsa, Waheguru ji ki Fateh

[dalsingh101]

One thing I notice is that the immigrant parents in the west have to work like dogs to get by. Usually this involves long hours on low pay to get by. Under these circumstances it isn't surprising that the kids can go off the rails, or fail to form strong attachment bonds with parents.

[navjit6]

i am not trying to offend you or anyone else, i am just expressing my view.

Before there were very few people that would do stupid things, and if you look now, it is increasing so dramatically. If your saying that most of your friends don't drink fair enough. But if you did a poll on the amount of people that drink/do drugs it is substantially more than people who don't. I said there are exceptions and said majority not ALL,and you will have different opinions than me, as we have been brought up differently.

Here is an article from a survey regarding Australians. by the way it was in 2002, and i think it can be only worse now.

"In 2002, Roy Morgan Research conducted an Alcohol Awareness Survey for the Salvation Army.

The key findings were reported as:

* Binge drinking for both young males and females is significant with 35 percent of teenage males admitting to drinking in one day during the last month between 11 and 30 alcoholic drinks and 22 percent of teenage females drinking between 9 and 30 drinks.

* 63 percent of young people have had their first drink by the age of fourteen – 14 percent by the age of 11 years.

* People under 24 years state their reason for drinking as “to fit in on social occasions”. More women than men drink to fit in on social occasions and more men than women drink “to relax”."

14% have drinks before they are 11, and 63% by 14. You can hardly blame the kids, they follow their friends or do what they want to do or how they have been brought up. If a kid drinks before the age of 14, i would say that the parent has not taught (and in my view cared) enough. Kids wouldn't know much about how harmful it is or what it can do. Now who would you blame. Who's fault is it that kids are drinking by that age. Kids or Parents? If the kids have been brought up in a good environment, with certain values and beliefs, then obviously like yourself, they probably wont drink. But i am not saying that they are bad people because they drink. But it significantly increases the chance of being a bad person. And there are statistics to show that 50% of teenagers have had sex before they have graduated from high school. I believe that this also is a parents fault, as they have no "cared/taught" there children ENOUGH. And this is spreading to the kids who are brought up in western countries, but have Indian parents. They too are doing the sames things to fit in socially.. And i think it is because the parents do not look after their kids as they used to. I AM NOT SAYING THAT ITS EVERYONE, BUT A MAJORITY THAT IS INCREASING.

"If you look at the majority of parents, i dont think they really realize the importance of being a parent and pretty much do as much as western parents do for their kids."

Excuse me? ----- Does this imply that western parents don't do much for their kids? I'm sorry to say, but that's a very bad "stereotype" to be applying there, and it has no place on a Sikh forum (who regard all as equals).

I didn't say western parent don't do much for their kids. You implied that yourself. i just said Indian parents these days do not realize the importance of being a parent as they ONCE did, and are slowly becoming westerners as they move to western countries, they are forgetting their beliefs, values and culture. Most of the people on this forum are the opposite, but it is a minority when compared to the Punjabi/Sikh families that have moved to western countries.

Check out how the western countries are running. USA invaded Afghanistan, which was fair(maybe, there are documentaries saying how the US government set up September 9/11 attacks...who knows). Then they invaded Iraq, which has already killed tens of thousands of people and was unjust. The country spends (i do not want to know how many) billions of dollars. Yet look at all the homeless people in the USA. They could of helped them, instead with that money. Help those who suffer, instead of making more suffer. People move to western countries to have a better standard of living compared to say India for example. But that does not mean the Governments are run well. They are just run better (much better) than those in eastern countries. But they to are corrupt to an extent.

I agree they are loads of positive people out their who help others (which i think is awesome) but i still think that number is decreasing. I believe that to improve you have to focus on the negatives. To learn from your mistakes and from other peoples mistakes. Many people are like i do this good thing and that good thing, so i am a good person and leave it at that. But to better yourself, you have to focus on the negatives, realize what they are, and how you can improve and then actually do it. Even the best of people can improve.