Usage of satguru phrase and status of krishan in gurbani

[Bijla Singh]

Regarding seeing millions of krishnas: mukht karak bhramgyani sargun saroop of vahiguroo in the hakum of vahiguroo is fully capable to transcedent itself into many. At the end, this is no where as to be seen or prove that krishan maharaj was any less avastha than sri guru nanak dev ji.

This is highly foolish and without any basis. I am again asking for proofs from Gurbani which you never provide. Bhai Gurdas Ji says that Guru Sahib is the greatest of all and Bhatts say that Guru Sahib is Satguru of four yugs. What status does Krishan have in Gurbani and show me the verses? Krishna seduced parjaat gopi in deceitful ways and had illicit relations (bajjar kurehat) with radha. In Gurmukh Darshan Sant Gurbachan Singh Ji has compared Guru Sahib to Krishan and Raam and

has stated that Guru Sahib is certainly higher than such avtars. There have been millions of krishnas but only one Satguru Nanak Sahib. Either you are wrong or Bhatts and Bhai Gurdas Ji.

do you even know what naam is?

Naam is in us- Nau nidh amrit prab ka naam, dehi meh iska bisraam.

Its the shabad that is used to awaken that naam.

Gurbani says Amrit/Naam is within us and I accept it. However, like you said, Shabad given by Guru Sahib has the power to bring the Amrit out from within us. Jot of Waheguru is within all of us but without Satguru it won’t appear. Naam from the Guru is thus very important. I don’t think we have a disagreement here.

Sri Guru Gobind Singh says: Aad Ant Eke Avtara So Guru Samjheo Hamara ||

In other words, Guru is only He who is always in existence and doesn’t take birth or die. Humans do not fit in this category. Krishan, Raam , Mohammad, Jesus etc were also humans.

Satguru/Guru from socio-religious aspect depending on different dharam, its anyone who is merged with Vahiguroo, who has realized paratma, merged in turiya avastha, rose above from all vikars, three gunas, panj gyan indrie, panj karam inderaie, panj tat, panj kosh is Guru, be it from any mat. - Look into bhagat bani rachna, if you read bani by them, guru is reffered to akaal purkh and also refer to their vidya/atamik gurdev.

Once again, I ask for proof from Gurbani. Gurbani is Dhur Ki bani and pure truth. Nothing in Gurbani is false. According to Gurbani there is only one Satguru. If you disagree then tell me who else is Satguru and how many of them there have been? What is the proof? What naam did they preach and how can one obtain it now?

Problem with you bijla singh, you have zap knowledge about other spiritual traditions in hinduism yet you find absoultely ok with disrespect them. Balleh Shera, vada guru vala bainya tu. Topic of dasam dwaur, there are two main ways hindu saints get to dasam dwara.

I have never claimed that I know everything. I have never experienced Dasam Duar and neither have you. Hindu rituals and ways to get to dasam duar are fine for hindus and Guru Sahib didn’t teach us any methods to get to it. When Guru Sahib does kirpa dasam duar opens and it Is not under anyone’s control. Any sane person knows that such spiritual experiences are beyond physical sense, experience and knowledge. Such experience cannot be explained in physical terms, which is why very few gursikhs ever tried to write on such topics.

Since when reincarnation and karam is only limited to sikhs?, its unique concept shared by all eastern religions- buddhist, hindus, sikhs, jains.

Read Gurmat Karam Philosophy first. Hindus and Jains have different beliefs about karma. Gurmat has different viewpoint. This is a different topic.

If guru sahib did kirpa on selected bhagats and revealed naam to them, i asked again in which form? via their gurdev?, also which naam? they already were in turiya avastha by doing abhyaas of naam given by their gurdev as you find by their rachna included in sri guru granth sahib ji.

I have already told you that Guru Sahib did kirpa on bhagats and some individuals in last century. How Guru Sahib does is only known to Him. Gurbani says that Guru Sahib gave naam to bhagats which means it happened. It doesn’t say naam was given through other human beings. Waheguru Jot as nirgun saroop is capable of all things and has the power to bless naam without taking sargun saroop. If naam can be given to someone in jail, in death without having to go through human beings then why couldn’t Guru Sahib give naam in nirgun saroop? Do you not accept Gurbani to be true? Or you rather be chela of your sant who also has no Gurmat reasoning?

One thing i have learned being in the sangat of mahapursh instead of tottagyanis is - its not which shabad as you call it naam it matters, but your faith and your abhyaas.

Naam is Gurmantar. Period.

Which naam parlad recited on? Which naam bhagat kabir recited on? Which naam bhagat pipa, bhagat ramanand, bhagat trilochan, gangka papan, ajamal,ravidas, namdev recited on?

Bhagats who became Sikhs were given Gurmantar. I don’t know about Prehlaad and Dhroo since it is not mentioned in Gurbani. Gurbani does mention that Gurmantar revealed by Guru Sahib is the highest of all and I assume this was given to bhagats. Once again, I am not sure but I am sure that Guru Sahib gave naam because it says so in Gurbani. A child does simran in the womb and I believe it is true but I don’t know what naam it is since it is not mentioned. Some gursikhs have told me that it is Ik Oankaar. I do not know.

Why keep bringing gurmat naam? show me one place why gurbani mentions gurmat naam.

ਮੇਰੇ ਮੀਤ ਗੁਰਦੇਵ ਮੋ ਕਉ ਰਾਮ ਨਾਮੁ ਪਰਗਾਸਿ ॥ ਗੁਰਮਤਿ ਨਾਮੁ ਮੇਰਾ ਪ੍ਰਾਨ ਸਖਾਈ ਹਰਿ ਕੀਰਤਿ ਹਮਰੀ ਰਹਰਾਸਿ ॥1॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥

In the same Shabad it is written: ਜੋ ਸਤਿਗੁਰ ਸਰਣਿ ਸੰਗਤਿ ਨਹੀ ਆਏ ਧ੍ਰਿਗੁ ਜੀਵੇ ਧ੍ਰਿਗੁ ਜੀਵਾਸਿ ॥3॥

Satguru is only One. Always has been and always will be.

There is no such as thing "gurmat" naam, there is only naam, which resides in each of us.

Then why need to get naam from the Guru? Just because Jot Waheguru resides in all of us doesn’t mean there is no need for Satguru.

ਬਿਨੁ ਗੁਰ ਮੁਕਤਿ ਨ ਪਾਈਐ ਭਾਈ ॥

In Gurbani, there are many shabad mantars- Ikongkar, Satnaam, Vahiguroo, Ram, Allah.

All names except Gurmantar are man made. Gurmantar is the true revealed name.

Avtars have different purpose, they are not neccessarily higher or lower from each other, they just have different purpose.

Bhai Gurdas Ji says, Guru Sahib is the greatest and so do Bhatts. Guru Gobind Singh Ji rejected all other avtars and stated that they had failed to do their job. Their gyan could not dispel darkness and fog of ignorance.

Bhai Gurdas ji talks about it, how vishnu avtar, ram avtar, krisan avtar were assigned in yugs they came as hari avtar, they all had different purpose in kalyug- sri guru nanak dev ji being avtar. How could all satyug, treta, dvapar yugs avtars can be false , indeed, they were assisgned by akaal purkh himself, how could rechna of akaal purkh can be false

You are highly delusional. I am not saying they were not sent by Waheguru or anything. I am simply saying that they failed in their job which is why Guru Sahib had to come.

ਚਹੁ ਜੁਗਾ ਕਾ ਹੁਣਿ ਨਿਬੇੜਾ ਨਰ ਮਨੁਖਾ ਨੋ ਏਕੁ ਨਿਧਾਨਾ ॥

False doesn’t mean non-existent. Falsehood, lies, deceit, robbery, rape etc all exist in this world, creation of Waheguru. I highly doubt, Mohammad a pedophile is at the same status as Guru Sahib. If you believe so, you need serious help. Avtar theory is not stated anywhere in Gurmat. Word avtar is also used for humans who are in reincarnation.

If you think dhikr is not naam, lets pick kun, islam beleives kun was a shabad that created the whole universe just like sikhism beleives ongkar was the first resosance shabad , thats how whole creation got created.

I would like to see the reference from Quran. Dhikr is a way to do tasbee and a person can choose any name to chant. Islam believes the world was created in 6 days. As far as brahma is concerned that is just plain manmat. Gurbani doesn’t say brahma created this world. Brahma was so much into lust that he wanted to have sex with his own daughter.

Conculustion- Ongkar, Oamkar, Aumkar, Aum, Satnam, Vahiguroo, Ram, Allah all equal have power to take this jiv in sachkhand, if this jev does abhyaas and faith in mantar.

All names will have some effect but only Gurmantar is the most powerful. All names except Gurmantar are man made. For example, Allah comes from “Al-Illah” which was the name for an idol in Mecca. Mohammad used this name to refer to God after destroying idols. Hence, it is man made, pagans to be more specific.

Gurmantar- Vahiguroo, Bij Mantar- Ikongkar, Mool mantar- Ikongkar to Gurparsad, Maha Mantar- Ikongkar to Nanak Hosbi Sach, Mala Mantar- Japji Sahib, Parapoorbla Mantar- Satnaam, Gyatri Mantar- Gobinde Mukhande Udare Appare Hariang Kariang Niramae Akaame (Baba Deep singh ji used to jaap on gyantri mantar 100,000 times a day).

No reference provided. These are just beliefs of sampardas and have no justification. What reference do you have to prove that Baba Deep Singh Ji recited any particular mantar for so many times? Sampardas only made these up to mix Sikhi and Hinduism.

Seven levels i quoted was taken from book of sufism (mystic traditon of islam), there are no references from quran given, i ll dig out more and let you know.

Only Quran and Hadiths are authentic books of Islam. Sufis faced persecution for not following fundamentals of Islam. Suleman ghost confirmed that islam prohibits the concept of Guru.

You have not answered my previous questions and also have not explained why Guru Sahib had to come and start Sikhi when other ways are equally capable of giving muktee? Why should someone join Sikhi and have price out on his head when he can put ashes in his head, live in mountains and get muktee? What is so special about Sikhi if muktee is available in all religions? Why didn't Guru Sahib preach the previous ways? Why is Bhai Gurdas Ji wrong and your sants are correct? If everything was there already then according to you Guru Sahib didn't do anything new and taking udasis was just a waste of time. Such thinking makes other believe that Sikhi was started by taking elements from Hinduism and Islam mixing them together. Unless you come up with some answers from Gurbani, enough has been said. Readers can make their own decision and learn what they find helpful. Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh

[N30S1NGH]

Bijla Singh, this is already discussed in previous debates with you. You seem hell bent on one point, good to your beleif. You write this post so that sangat can read it, i would also like to post my thoughts which i posted in earlier threads and let sangat decide if sikhi is really black and white as you like to claim it. Also you have a big tendency to misinterpertating gurbani as you did other threads- bed ketab shabad you were challenged by pal07 which you had no answer and ignored his posts. Anyway you are guilty of blasphemy misinterperet gurbani like a dalal(pimp) to suit your fascist agenda. Atleast I dont claim to interpret gurbani but luckily by guru's grace have enough sources in my library of various teekas of panth ratans (recnognized by jathedars, sikh academica, used in gurdwaras) to expose you which i have in the post, but right now i would just quote my previous post on this topic so that sangat can read.

VahiguroojikakhalsaVahiguroojikifateh,

Bijla singh,

Normally I dont argue or debate that much in real life or on the forum, but its my jamir(consceince) which is dedicated to avtars/guru maharaj, sants of all the dharams is making me to debate with you. I really hope. Guru sahib breaks your jhoota ahankar after this debate. Any person who does nindya of others avtars, to make their avtars higher is full of dubta who fully overlooks its the same nirgun paratma that transcedented its beauty into avtars. This is not a attack towards you but this tat khalsa idealogy that you been diseased with along with god know how many sikhs youths diseased with.

///This is highly foolish and without any basis. I am again asking for proofs from Gurbani which you never provide. Bhai Gurdas Ji says that Guru Sahib is the greatest of all and Bhatts say that Guru Sahib is Satguru of four yugs. What status does Krishan have in Gurbani and show me the verses? Krishna seduced parjaat gopi in deceitful ways and had illicit relations (bajjar kurehat) with radha. In Gurmukh Darshan Sant Gurbachan Singh Ji has compared Guru Sahib to Krishan and Raam and has stated that Guru Sahib is certainly higher than such avtars. There have been millions of krishnas but only one Satguru Nanak Sahib. Either you are wrong or Bhatts and Bhai Gurdas Ji. //

Sikhs beleive, there is no difference between Guru Nanak Dev Ji and Vahiguroo. Sri Guru Nanak Dev Ji in nirgun saroop is Vahiguroo, Vahiguroo in saroop is Guru Avtar in Kalyug- Sri Guru Nanak Dev Ji.

Question here, before kalyug where was sri guru nanak dev ji?

Two ways to look at this, i aligned my beleif with gurbani/gurmat, beleive in 1st, bijla singh ji is basing his beleif on 2nd. I ll let sangat decide which way is manmat, which is gurmat?

1. Before Kalyug, Sri Guru Nanak Dev ji was leen into Nirgun Paratma. Paratma is one(Ikongkar), it's same nirgun paratma that transcedent itself(not fully with attributes need in each respective yugs) as gurbani mentioned below via dvaraf,ram ji, krishan ji into satyug, treta, dvapar. As gurbani also says, its same Nirgun paratma transcedent itself(not fully but with most attributes) into Guru Nanak Dev Ji in Kalyug.

2. Before Kalyug, sri guru nanak dev in jot saroop in gupti roopi did kirpa on all the bhagats of satyug, treta, dvapar.

In my humble opnion, 2nd beleive have contradictory elements with gurbani, if bijla singh beleive sri guru nanak dev ji in jot saroop in gupti roopi did kirpa on all bhagats, then he has to also admit that sri guru nanak dev ji in jot form took form as dwarf, ram chandar ji, krishan maharaj ji. Because gurbani talks about this.

To say sargun(physical saroop) of sri guru nanak dev ji came in all four yugs, its directly contradicting gurban icontradicting gurbani talking about four yugas. Here gurbani talking about four yugas, and "specific" avtars in each yuga- you is referred to akaal purkh, came in form of Dwarf, raam chandar ji, krishan maharaj and sri guru nanak dev ji maharaj ji.

Below Gurbani tuk will prove- Vahiguroo/Ram/Allah took a avtar in form of- Dwarf(vashudev) was Guru of Satyuga, Ram Chandar Ji was Guru of Trayta, Krishan Maharaj was Guru of dVAAPAR, in kalyug sri guru nanak dev ji is Guru in Kalyug.

/There are different categories of avatar, the most complete being 'puran hari avtar' (even with the differences in kalaas between them as sant gurbachan singh ji teekas and samparda teekas confirms). Only they have the specific status of being those who give yug-dharma - the most appropriate teachings of the yug. Guru Maharaj is clearly of this category. If Avtar were simply perfect brahmgyaan, then any other brahmgyani would be the Guru in that sense...but no samprda sikh has ever claimed to be of the same category. However, the puran hari avtar manifest for a SPECIFIC function of giving yug dharma...a brahmgyani per se is not that. Yet Guru Hargobind's statement in Bhai Gurdas Varan (I will come in each and every yug to give dharma), Bhatts statements, etc all show there is no difference from earlier avatars of yugs...because how can there be?!! Either Parmatma came as 'puran' or he didn't./

All four were puran hari avtars respective to each yugas, yet avtars likes- Ansa Avtar(Raja Janak), Aveshya Avtar, Nit Avtar(sants of past and present) , Namit Avtar(Narsingh avtar) are lower than puran hari avtar because they were guru of each yugas, but they came and will still come in between to benefit human kind

Here enuf of my babling, here is what gurbani has to say:

In the Golden Age of Sat Yuga, You were pleased to deceive Baal the king, in the form of a dwarf.

thraethai thai maaniou raam raghuvans kehaaeiou ||

In the Silver Age of Traytaa Yuga, You were called Raam of the Raghu dynasty.

dhuaapur kirasan muraar kans kirathaarathh keeou ||

In the Brass Age of Dwaapur Yuga, You were Krishna; You killed Mur the demon and saved Kans.

ougrasain ko raaj abhai bhagatheh jan dheeou ||

You blessed Ugrasain with a kingdom, and You blessed Your humble devotees with fearlessness.

kalijug pramaan naanak gur angadh amar kehaaeiou ||

In the Iron Age, the Dark Age of Kali Yuga, You are known and accepted as Guru Nanak, Guru Angad and Guru Amar Das.

sree guroo raaj abichal attal aadh purakh furamaaeiou ||7||

The sovereign rule of the Great Guru is unchanging and permanent, according the Command of the Primal Lord God. ||7||

If you dont like to read english translations, here in vistaar by faridkoti teeka, what functions each avtar did in their each yug. Akaal Purkh according to the need in each yug, transedent itself into avtars to sort things out, akaal purkh transcedent itself- dwarf, ram chandar ji, krishan maharaj, sri guru nanak dev ji. No avtar is higher or lower, they are all same, but they have performed different duties. Its different age thats all.

Also Bhai Gurdas Ji also mentions:

Jag Jag Satgur Dharie Avatari ||

In each age, the true guru will take avtar.

Also you have insulted twice krishan maharaj by calling he commited bujjer kurehit. Avtar is above than us joe blow humans, but tat khalsa /sharia panthis like you wouldnt get it, because you like to judge avtars by your little box standards.

Neverthless, if you accuse krishan maharaj commit illicit relationship and commiting bujher kurehit, one( same sharia mindset as yours, perverted sick individual from different mat) can also argue why gurus have multiple wives? were gurus were bhogi?, sakhi of maharaj giving hakum to sri guru angad dev ji to eat dead body, any other joe blow (with sharia mindset as yours) can also argue that it was inhumane act about to be committed/committed to dead body.

I am fully aware that there are quotes in gurbani that talks about, there are million of krishnas, there is no problem accepting that still holding krishan was puran hari avtar along dvarf, ram chandar ji and sri guru nanak dev ji. Sri Guru Nanak Dev ji himself said in japji sahib there is no end of paratma creation, there are infinte numbers of bhramands(Realms), worlds, meta realms. Since there was no stop on vahiguroo's creation, for all we know there are millions of ages people living in the same time- satyug, treta, dvapar, kalyug happening all the same time. Do you know limit to akaal purkh creation?

Akaal Usat(Page 48, Line 10): Maharaj mentions:

There was one Shiva, who passed away and another one came into being; there are many incarnations of Ramchandra and Krishna.

There are many Brahmas and Vishnus, there are many Vedas and Puranas, there have been the authors of all the Smritis, who created their works and passed away.

Many religious leaders, many chieftains of clans, many Ashwani Kumars and many degrees of incarnations, they had all been subject to death.

Many Muslim preceptors (Pirs) and Prophets, who cannot be count ed, they were born out of the earth, ultimately merged in the earth.

It may seem to an agyani person who thinks they know sikhi by reading few books that guru maharaj is lashing at the previous devi/devta's/avtars- ram, krishan maharaj ji. But according to teekas written by great great scholars who have spend all their life, doing khoj: guru maharaj is giving tat gyan to sikhs also people around that time who were sargun upasak of krishan, ram chandar, and other devi/devta's murtiya. He is giving updesh to sikhs and those people that five tats(asthol sirar) never stays(look at last line of akaal ustat), its born out of earth, ulitmately merged in the earth. So rise above from moortiya pooja and be upasak of shabad,gyan avtars given you in form of vaaks, vachans. Thats why in bachitar natak, guru maharaj clear says- whosoever call me(my physical saroop) as nirgun paratama, goes straight to hell. Also bachitar natak, maharaj give hints that names mentioned there, represent the movements went astray not the founders. How could founders can go astray, when bhata de svyaie confirm that vahiguroo came as krishn, ram.???

///Sri Guru Gobind Singh says: Aad Ant Eke Avtara So Guru Samjheo Hamara ||

In other words, Guru is only He who is always in existence and doesn’t take birth or die. Humans do not fit in this category. Krishan, Raam , Mohammad, Jesus etc were also humans. ///

Sri Guru Gobind Singh Ji - said Guru- Nirgun paratama who have made - all the avtars including hari avtar in sargun form its not my guru in essence, but its nirgun paratma- aad ant ek avtara(creator of all avtars) is my Guru. Krishan, Raam, Mohaammad were also human, that includes also sri guru nanak dev ji who came in human form- sargun as well.

Even though sri guru tegh bahudar ji is vidya/gyan data guru of sri guru gobind singh ji, however since guru maharaj is talking about tat gyan(essence of all), he is reffering to nirgun paratama as his guru- aad(even before existence) ant(even after end) ek avtara(there is only one god who takes form of avtars) soi samjeho guru hamara(consider that is my guru).

Guru Maharaj have said it so people don't go around worshipping him but so that people worship nirgun vahiguroo via shabad and nirgun upasana.

Sikhi beleives in avtarhood: as sri dasam patsah in sri dasam granth sahib talks about avtar-

Jab Jab Arsat Hot Sansara ||

Tab Tab Deh Dharat Avtara ||

Once again, I ask for proof from Gurbani. Gurbani is Dhur Ki bani and pure truth. Nothing in Gurbani is false. According to Gurbani there is only one Satguru. If you disagree then tell me who else is Satguru and how many of them there have been? What is the proof? What naam did they preach and how can one obtain it now?

As i stand by fully atal, gurbani has three different context of satguru (according to research i managed to do so far).

a) Akaal Purkh in bhagata bani.

b) Satguru Nanak dev ji by bhats as well as sri guru arjan dev ji- aad gureh nameh, jagud guru nameh, satguru nameh, sri gurdev eh nameh(sri guru ram das ji).

c) Bhagat di bani/Bhai Gurdas Ji varan reffering satguru to avtars, bhagat ramanand by his shish(disciple-bhagat kabir). just like gurbani uses sant to Paratma(Vahiguroo), Guru Maharaj(Guru Arjan Dev Ji to Guru Ram Das Ji- Bhag Hoya Gur Sant Millaya), Sant who have got bhramgyan.

I think bijla singh have disagreement with me on c). I think we both agree on a and b).

Here is first gurbani quote by bhai gurdas ji regarding context of guru/satguru:

Here bhai gurdas ji talking about bhagit kabir ji encounter with his guru ramanand ji. The line in bold, bhai gurdas talks about that the wondrous sargun form of guru- referring to bhagat ramand ji, even turns even animals and ghost into angels. Look at the theme of this shabad, its starts with bhagat kabir encounter with his guru- ramamand, just read just line before the bold one, its talk about in metaphoric language, when iron touches stone becomes gold just like guru- reffering to bhagat ramamand ji samaratha turns even animals and ghost into angels, kabir is after all human, and line after- Meeting the wonderous Guru the disciple wonderfully merges into the great wonderous Lord. the disiple- bhagat kabir and guru being his vidya gurdev. 2nd last line distincation is directly made - meeting wonderous guru and merges into wonderour lord. And last line- after merging- Bhai Gurdas ji says- Ram and Kabir became indentical

hoe birakath banaarasee rehi(n)dhaa raamaana(n)dh gusaaee||

Being detached from the world, Brahmin Ramanand lived in Varanasi (Kasi).

a(n)mrith vaelae out(h)akae jaa(n)dhaa ga(n)gaa nhaavan thaaee||

He would rise early in the morning and go to the Ganges to bathe.

ago(n) hee dhae jaaeikae la(n)maa piaa kabeer thithhaaee||

Once even before Ramanand, Kabir went there and lay in the way.

pairee(n) ttu(n)b out(h)aaliaa bolahu raam sikh samajhaaee||

Touching with his feet Ramanand awakened Kabir and told him to speak ‘Ram’, the true spiritual teaching.

jiou(n) lohaa paaras shhuhae cha(n)dhan vaas ni(n)m mehikaaee||

As the iron touched by philosopher’s stone becomes gold and the margosa tree (Azadirachta indica) is made fragrant by sandal.

pasoo paraethahu(n) dhaev kar poorae sathigur dhee vaddiaaee||

The wondrous Guru turns even animals and ghosts into angels.

acharaj no acharaj milai visamaadhae visamaadh milaaee||

Meeting the wonderous Guru the disciple wonderfully merges into the great wonderous Lord.

jharanaa jharadhaa nijharahu(n) guramukh baanee agharr gharraaee||

Then from the Self springs a fountain and the words of the gurmukhs shape a beautiful form

raam kabeerai bhaedh n bhaaee ||aa||

Now Ram and Kabir became identical.

2nd gurbani quote regarding context of satguru/guru.

taken from faridkoti teeka:

This one, kabir ji being in mukht state: saying if jaigaso/i(student) finds an satguru(stating lashkhan of true satguru) who is - a)bhram surarti - satguru who has his surati with bhram b) bhram nesta- satguru who have full faith that without bhram(vahiguroo) there is nothing, there will be nothing. If jaiagaso/i finds that kind of satguru and satguru becomes happy with that jaigaso and gave that jaigaso final atam updesh then this jaiagaso find its very easy to get gyan mukhti and through this jaigaso goes to sehaj saroop and spent his time in ever lasting bliss.

In this quote, bhagat kabir talks about lachan of satguru and its milap benefits according to shaastar. In this context,ge is referring to anyone prani who have quality that was stated- bhram nesta/bhram surarti as satguru.

3rd gurbani quote regarding context of satguru taken from faridkoti teeka:

Again in this quote, satguru is not reffered to nirgun paratma but reffered to sargun saroop of vahiguroo, since he had guru ramamand which gave him bairaag, to enforce importance of guru- he is saying without satguru updesh, bairaag is not possible. With porbale karam(good karams from previous), you get to meet satguru- possibly explaining the state- that he did. At the last, kabir is giving updesh to bairaagi to beg to vahiguroo - with grace of satguru and with help of satguru, may i across worldy ocean. I shall follow discourse of satguru.

4th gurbani quote regarding satguru context from faridkoti teeka

Again this quote, gurparsad is referred to sargun saroop of vahiguroo, by his parsad(kirpa). Jaiagaso have through guru kirpa(sargun saroop), he has (desire to meet god/asa), and he is niras(from duniya, padaratha). For him, he is seeing real truth.

Jaigaso who has tasted raam naam, that person helps other to cross ocean.

In conclusion, i have provided you four quotes of satguru- first refers to bhagat ramanand, second refers anyone who has the qualities above, third refers to sargun saroop of vahiguroo- satguru, fourth also refers to sargun saroop of vahiguroo.

Since you stated earlier sri guru nanak dev ji before they took physical birth in 1469, were nirankari jot which i dont have problem with that, what i highly disagree is that you made satguru nanak dev ji as to one true prophet all ages as i discussed but anyway, if you satguru nanak dev ji was nirankari jot before they took birth in 1469 then, i rest my case because above 4 quotes (1 by bhai gurdas ji, 3 by bhagat kabir) regarding satguru directly refers to sargun saroop of vahiguroo so with its help, one can merge into nirgun paratma.

Take my advise, you just creating many veils for yourself- study nirgun and sargun concept carefully, so that you can get out of dubta which you may not admit.

I have never claimed that I know everything. I have never experienced Dasam Duar and neither have you. Hindu rituals and ways to get to dasam duar are fine for hindus and Guru Sahib didn’t teach us any methods to get to it. When Guru Sahib does kirpa dasam duar opens and it Is not under anyone’s control. Any sane person knows that such spiritual experiences are beyond physical sense, experience and knowledge. Such experience cannot be explained in physical terms, which is why very few gursikhs ever tried to write on such topics.

I agree, but as you said few gursikhs have wrote on this topic, here are some of writings of gursikhs on this dasam duar . If you get a chance read- discourse on beyond in english, here are the pages on dasam duar:

http://www.gurmarag.net/SikhAwareness/Pict...20the%20Beyond/

///Read Gurmat Karam Philosophy first. Hindus and Jains have different beliefs about karma. Gurmat has different viewpoint. This is a different topic.////

Jains might have different beleif i m not knowledgable about them , but sikhi is very aligned with hinduism, according to hindus there are three types of karam, so as sikhs(read your singh132 post on karams):

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sanchita_karma

I have already told you that Guru Sahib did kirpa on bhagats and some individuals in last century. How Guru Sahib does is only known to Him. Gurbani says that Guru Sahib gave naam to bhagats which means it happened. It doesn’t say naam was given through other human beings. Waheguru Jot as nirgun saroop is capable of all things and has the power to bless naam without taking sargun saroop. If naam can be given to someone in jail, in death without having to go through human beings then why couldn’t Guru Sahib give naam in nirgun saroop? Do you not accept Gurbani to be true? Or you rather be chela of your sant who also has no Gurmat reasoning?

You see your tat khalsa fairy tale beleif contradicts gurbani(above quoted) which clearly mentions, sri guru nanak dev ji came as sargun of vahiguroo and came in guru in kalyug, also specifically mentions that dvarf, krishan maharaj, ram chandar ji were sargun sarooop of vahiguroo of their yug- satyug, treta, dvapar. If gurbani itself saying that, i rest my case.

Next thing you will say- no one got jevan mukht vedah mukhti in ages of satyug, treta, dvapar because dvarf, krishan, raam chandar who were hari avtar of vahiguroo were not capable who are also part of nirgun vahiguroo , same nirgun that sri guru nanak dev ji was part of, you probably think they came from satan?. it just amazes me what kinda rubbish you guys come up with and brainwash youths here.

////Naam is Gurmantar. Period.///

What a easy way to dodge the quotes on ongkar that i asked you before, which you dont have any answer.

Ok answer this, why emphasise is equally put in amrit sanchar on gurmantar and mool mantar?

You probably think with gurmantar- vahiguroo, sikhs can only get to sachkhand and with mool mantar sikhs get to karam khand, what a pile of bullocks. I cannot beleive tat khalsa mindset is discriminating between guru ghars mantars now, came from same sri guru nanak dev ji. It just amazes me.

Each Gurghar Mantar other mat mantars- ram, allah have its purposes, they are all capable take jiv into sachkhand.

For example- On japing vahiguroo, you will loose your ego. During yudh, baba deep singh ji used to recite gobinde mukhande udara appare hariang kariang nirnamee akame || for shiv shakti - shakti of vahiguroo. (reference - look sri harbhan singh yogi katha)

ikongkar mantar- bij mantar is used to feel that gyan. bij mantar sarb ko gian ||, Satnaam mantar is mantar of para bani- bani in nabhi(pirmal force- bani of rom rom har dhavaie) thats why its known para poorabla mantar.

Speaking of ram as mantar refer to nirgun god not ram sargun saroop: When i was reading bani by bhagat kabir, i probably come across with ram being naam/shabad close to 100 times, how could you deny it otherwise? ram not being naam.?, are you telling me ram naam was adura(not complete) in the yug compare to vahiguroo, are you telling me that people who japped on ram shabad to awake naam inside them were not mukht within their age(yug)? oh no i forgot it was sri guru nanak dev ji in gupti ropi gave them gurmat naam in their ears? how consistent?

////Bhagats who became Sikhs were given Gurmantar. I don’t know about Prehlaad and Dhroo since it is not mentioned in Gurbani. Gurbani does mention that Gurmantar revealed by Guru Sahib is the highest of all and I assume this was given to bhagats. Once again, I am not sure but I am sure that Guru Sahib gave naam because it says so in Gurbani. A child does simran in the womb and I believe it is true but I don’t know what naam it is since it is not mentioned. Some gursikhs have told me that it is Ik Oankaar. I do not know. //

I also beleive some bhagats came as panj pyares, i could beleive there is no issue there, but they were already mukht through gurparsad(kirpa of their guru) and vahiguroo, they came in hakum of akaal purkh and thats it, they didnt came here to get mukhti, it was part of maharaj leela- you really think panj pyares got bhramgyan when they gave their shish, they were already mukht atma came back as singhs with hakum of akaal purkh to show the world, the highest state is pyaar towards your guru that one sarcifices everything- tan, man, dhan.

It was part of maharaj lela(drama)- As sri guru gobind singh ji clearly states- Meh Ho Param Purkh Ko Dasa, Dekhon Aio Jagat Tamasa ||.

Since you put soo much emphasis on gurmat naam and sachkhand only limited to amrit dhari sikhs, you really think sri guru gobind singh ji was not complete as (tapavasi hindu sadhu) dusat duman , that only reason he came as sri guru gobind singh ji is to receive khanda da amrit from panj pyares and take gurmantar?

Then why need to get naam from the Guru? Just because Jot Waheguru resides in all of us doesn’t mean there is no need for Satguru.

Panj pyares give us shabad so that we can do shabad abhyaas so that naam of vahiguroo could be awaken within us, that resosance ongkar naam existed in everyone- be it sikhs, hindu, muslims, animals, trees, whole universe.

In Gurbani, there are many shabad mantars- Ikongkar, Satnaam, Vahiguroo, Ram, Allah.

All names except Gurmantar are man made. Gurmantar is the true revealed name.

So ikongkar, satnaam, mool mantar, ram, allah were all man made there no value, yeah rights thats probably why there is mention of ram hundred of hundreds times and allah many many times, along with ikongkar, satnam in mangal charan.

Bhai Gurdas Ji says, Guru Sahib is the greatest and so do Bhatts. Guru Gobind Singh Ji rejected all other avtars and stated that they had failed to do their job. Their gyan could not dispel darkness and fog of ignorance.

Guru sahib were greatest guru in kalyug but they were not compared to other avtars because each avtar had different purpose as gurbani clearly mentioned it will be one thing if all the hari avtars like - dvarf, ram, krishan and sri guru nanak dev ji had same purpose but all they had different purposes- get that through your head, because of that no one is higher no one is lower, how could they be lower or higher they all come from same source- nirgun paratma.

And i already mentioned bachitar natak earlier, maharaj give hints that names mentioned there, represent the movements went astray not the founders. How could founders can go astray, when bhata de svyaie confirm that vahiguroo came as krishn, ram.???

You are highly delusional. I am not saying they were not sent by Waheguru or anything. I am simply saying that they failed in their job which is why Guru Sahib had to come.

If they were to fail their job within in their own yug then why sri guru nanak dev ji as avtar wasnt then there sent by vahiguroo himself, if avtar of satyug failed his job as you claim then how sri guru nanak dev ji wasnt sent in satyug why kalyug ?

There was no failure of (avtars)founders of dharam, how could avtar of vahiguroo can be failures after all it avtar is creation of vahiguroo, how could avtar which is creation of vahiguroo can be imperfect..there was failure of people who were followers, causing religious wars. For eg: I am sure sure if in kalyug if all the fanatics from all the dharams were to fully hijack the dharam, sceinstist, atheist, communist starting their own world wars, then i m sure vahiguroo probably ended this world(kalyug) as well and according to his wish either started the cycle again (satyug, treta, dvapar, kalyug) or do straight maha parloa. Then some next joe blow comes along start targetting the founder guru in kalyug and start whinning about how sri guru nanak dev ji failed in kalyug, thats why kalyug ended and satyug started.

There are four ages, its a cycle one after another, its not like avtar failed satyug thats how satyug got destroyed then next came, its a cycle, after each yug is given x numbers of years. After kalyug, its up to vahiguroo he can start this cycle back on or do maha parloa - as you said million of ram , krishan avtars of vahiguroo which maharaj mentioned are used again. Thats exactly maharaj is mentioning when he said ek shiv bhai ek gaye, ek pher baie, ram chandran krishan kaie avtar bhi anek hai, it directly linked with yugs, maharaj said soo many times avtars, including whosoever avtar was in previous kalyug came in and went , then came back in.

Avtar theory is not stated anywhere in Gurmat. Word avtar is also used for humans who are in reincarnation.

what???????? avtar is not stated anywhere, you gotta be joking right. What about narsingh avtar? avtar mentioned in bhat savees,bhai gurdas ji, chaubis avtar in sri dasam granth. But then again, you know better than sant gurbachan singh ji bhindranwale and great bhramgyanis of other puratan samparda's.

Explain this then:

Sikhi beleives in avtarhood: as sri dasam patsah in sri dasam granth sahib talks about avtar-

Jab Jab Arsat Hot Sansara ||

Tab Tab Deh Dharat Avtara ||

I would like to see the reference from Quran. Dhikr is a way to do tasbee and a person can choose any name to chant. Islam believes the world was created in 6 days. As far as brahma is concerned that is just plain manmat. Gurbani doesn’t say brahma created this world. Brahma was so much into lust that he wanted to have sex with his own daughter.

who is taking about bhrama here? I m talking about kun mantar which islam wale beleives that created this universe. It all comes to beleive here, whatever your beleif/perceive thats what it comes across in higher reality- spiritual orders in hindusim beleive in aum-aligned with four avastha- jagrath, saupan, sukhopat, turiya, sikhs beleive ongkar was the first resosance. After all each beleive is based on faith. Whatever mind perceives reality thats what happens, for eg- if amritdhari singhs, beleive its shahid singhs come after death and take the subtle sirar away, thats what happens as compare to devdoots or guardian angels. If christian beleives its the guardian angel instead of shahid singhs as whatever mind perceives thats what happens as proven in different religious people encouter of near death expereinces.

This is my last post on this topic. As you said, we will let sangat decide, out of us, which one has used gurmat idealogy and which one has used modified tat khalsa idealogy which has attempted in past and still doing soo, attempted to destroy- khalsa panth which is beautiful garden of sri guru nanak dev ji and tried making it into shariaism instead of sikhism in the past, still doing so. This is debate is merely an ego battle, its a debate started when tat khalsa idealogy came along with bhausaria singh sabhas with good intention in heart but in reality did more damage than any good to the panth. Its a debate between two ideology- guru di mat discphired by puratan samparda's and tat khalsa look on sikhi.

VahiguroojikakhalsaVahiguroojikifateh

[jassa]

:WW: thanks namstang bhajji lengthy but worth reading .... all things cleared with source !!!!

fathe

[Balait_da_Sher]

I have moved out all the posts related to the discussion between Namstang and Bijla singh. If i have missed any posts then i apologise. I felt that this discussion was moving away from the kaur in punj pyare discussion. So now we have two topics.

If you guys can think of appropriate topic title for this, let me know and i will change it.

[N30S1NGH]

I really appreciate mods spiliting the topic as it was getting tottaly off topic. This topic should be named by keeping in mind- multiple key issues adressed here, title - Usage of satguru phrase and status of krishan in gurbani, and under second field- description- bhagats receiving naam from guru sahib? if its possible.

[Matheen]

...Jin Prem Kiyo Thin Hee Prabh Payo....

All problems sorted?]

[RupZ]

Namstang I love you man! Good post!

[Guest Akirtghan]

wow i'm so behind on my reading now :wub:

[sikha]

Please read the following beautiful shabad by Guru Arjan Dev on the previous avatars.

The Enticer of Hearts, the Lord of wealth, Krishna, the Enemy of ego

......................

He has staged His play; He is called the four-armed Lord.

He assumed the beautiful form of the blue-skinned Krishna; hearing His flute, all are fascinated and enticed. ||9||

read the rest of this amazing shabad on the following link

http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.g...16&id=46444

[Bijla Singh]

ਸਤਜੁਗਿ ਤੈ ਮਾਣਿਓ ਛਲਿਓ ਬਲਿ ਬਾਵਨ ਭਾਇਓ ॥ ਤ੍ਰੇਤੈ ਤੈ ਮਾਣਿਓ ਰਾਮੁ ਰਘੁਵੰਸੁ ਕਹਾਇਓ ॥

ਦੁਆਪੁਰਿ ਕ੍ਰਿਸਨ ਮੁਰਾਰਿ ਕੰਸੁ ਕਿਰਤਾਰਥੁ ਕੀਓ ॥ ਉਗ੍ਰਸੈਣ ਕਉ ਰਾਜੁ ਅਭੈ ਭਗਤਹ ਜਨ ਦੀਓ ॥

ਕਲਿਜੁਗਿ ਪ੍ਰਮਾਣੁ ਨਾਨਕ ਗੁਰੁ ਅੰਗਦੁ ਅਮਰੁ ਕਹਾਇਓ ॥ ਸ੍ਰੀ ਗੁਰੂ ਰਾਜੁ ਅਬਿਚਲੁ ਅਟਲੁ ਆਦਿ ਪੁਰਖਿ ਫੁਰਮਾਇਓ ॥7॥

Bhatts are praising Guru Sahib in the Bani which is sargun saroop and not nirgun. Keep in mind that Bhatts could not find ultimate peace in the world which they obtained from Guru Sahib which is why they are praising Guru Sahib. If peace or muktee was readily available everywhere then they wouldn’t have traveled so far just to reach Guru Sahib. Having said that, Bhatts were so pleased and blessed by the darshan of Guru Sahib that they realized the greatness of Satguru. According to them, it was Guru Sahib who was the power behind all the avtars. It doesn’t mean Guru Sahib Himself was raam or krishan. I hardly doubt it was Guru Sahib who saw gopis bathing naked and cried in the battlefield. The whole purpose of the Shabad is that the power of truth avtars had come from Satguru. If you believe otherwise then where do Mohammad, Jesus, Moses, Abraham and other prophets fit in?

In JapJi Sahib it is clearly stated that Krishan is in Gyan Khand.

ਗਿਆਨ ਖੰਡ ਕਾ ਆਖਹੁ ਕਰਮੁ ॥ ਕੇਤੇ ਪਵਣ ਪਾਣੀ ਵੈਸੰਤਰ ਕੇਤੇ ਕਾਨ ਮਹੇਸ ॥ ਕੇਤੇ ਬਰਮੇ ਘਾੜਤਿ ਘੜੀਅਹਿ ਰੂਪ ਰੰਗ ਕੇ ਵੇਸ ॥

It is clear that Krishan is not in Sachkhand. He came and left but Guru Sahib came and never left. Rehat of Guru Sahib is applicable to all. Guru Sahib had relations with His wives only not with anyone else. Krishan wasn’t married to radha and seduced parjaat by disguising himself as a woman. Seeing women bathing naked is not an action of Guru Sahib.

How could founders can go astray, when bhata de svyaie confirm that vahiguroo came as krishn, ram.???

God has no father, no mother, no son and no grandson. Then why did He come to this world and called Himself as son of Daivkee? God who created life, solar systems, soil, and rest of the elements in the universe. How can He be praised by comparing Him to a human such as Arjun or Krishna? (Guru Gobind Singh Ji)

Bhatts were standing in Darbar of Guru Sahib when praising sargun saroop Guru Sahib not nirgun saroop Waheguru.

Guru Sahib also said “Kishan Bishan Kabhoo Na Dheyayoo(n)”. if Krishan was Waheguru then Guru Sahib wouldn’t have rejected him.

Krishan, Raam, Mohaammad were also human, that includes also sri guru nanak dev ji who came in human form- sargun as well.

This contradicts Gurbani according to which Guru is not human and out of cycle of death and birth. Shabad is the Guru in which nirgun Jot of Nanak (Waheguru) resides. Guru can never be human. Avtars were humans. If Guru is human then you believe that Guru Sahib took birth and died.

Regarding c) definition of Satguru I have already stated that Satguru cannot be human. You have not provided a single panktee from Gurbani to show who else has the status of Satguru? Gurbani clearly says that Guru Nanak is Satguru but nowhere is it mentioned that Ramanand is Satguru. If you believe Bhagats are praising their human gurus then you must also believe that Gurbani praises human beings who were in the cycle of reincarnation. The fact is that Gurbani only praises Guru Sahib and Waheguru not any human beings.

Vaars of Bhai Gurdas Ji first state the story and then give conclusion. It doesn’t mean Bhai Sahib agrees with the stories. The moral lies in the last lines. I agree that meeting the guru, Bhagat Ji came to know of spirituality but as proven in my earlier post, Bhat Kabir Ji became disciple of Guru Sahib which is evident from His Bani, viyakaran, janamsakhis and kabir mansoor granth.

Ramanand Ji had rejected his guru and started his own path. A person without a guru cannot be mukat. Therefore, his Guru was Guru Sahib. You also have not answered how many Satgurus are there now, how many have been in the past and how many were there during Guru Sahib’s times? How can Gurbani say that Satguru is only One and then praise human beings as Satguru?

Next thing you will say- no one got jevan mukht vedah mukhti in ages of satyug, treta, dvapar because dvarf, krishan, raam chandar who were hari avtar of vahiguroo were not capable who are also part of nirgun vahiguroo , same nirgun that sri guru nanak dev ji was part of, you probably think they came from satan?. it just amazes me what kinda rubbish you guys come up with and brainwash youths here.

You are the one making up stuff and pinning it on me. I have already stated that Guru Sahib, Satguru of all ages, gave muktee to selected bhagats in previous yugs. Was it not clear or you turned blind eye? All avtars came but could not accomplish the task. Idol worship, caste system, discrimination and inequality were not rejected but practiced by these avtars. Raam killed a shudra for doing bhagtee. Can one expect such thing from Guru Sahib? No.

Many Muhammads had been on the earth. They were born and then died in their own times. All the Prophets and saints of the past were conquered by Death (KAL), but none could conquer it (death). All the incarnations of Vishnu like Rama and Krishan were destroyed by KAL, but they could not destroy him. (Guru Gobind Singh Ji)

Ram, Muhammad, Krishna, Vishnu etc., All were destroyed by this sword of KAL(death); crores(millions) of measures, but without the devotion of One Lord, no one achieved redemption. (Guru Gobind Singh Ji)

If these avtars were saroop of Waheguru then they would be invincible but since they died a human death it proves that they were humans and not Waheguru.

In Bachittar Natak Guru Sahib explains that Waheguru sent many sadhus and avtars to propagate Naam but none fulfilled the mission and misguided humanity to follow them instead of Waheguru. Here is the Chaupai.

CHAUPAI

When I(vahiguroo) created the world in the beginning, I created the ignominious and dreadful Daityas. Who became mad with power and abandoned the worship of Supreme Purusha.6. I destroyed them in no time and created gods in their place. They were also absorbed in the worship of power and called themselves Ominipotent.7. Mahadeo (Shiva) was called Achyuta (blotless), Vishnu considered himself the Supreme. Brahma called himself Para Brahman, none could comprehend the Lord.8. Then I created eight Sakshis in order to give evidence of my Entity. But they considered themselves all in all and asked the people to worship them.9.**(these are Hindu Gods). Those who did not comprehend the Lord, they were considered as Ishvara. Several people worshipped the sun and the moon and several others worshipped Fire and Air.10. Several them considered God as stone and several others bathed considering the Lordship of Water. Considering Dharmaraja as the Supreme representative of Dharma, several bore fear of him in their actions. 11. All those whom God established for the revelation of His Supremacy, they themselves were called Supreme. They forgot the Lord in their race for supremacy. 12 When they did not comprehend the Lord, then I established human beings in their place. They also were overpowered by `mineness`(haumei) and exhibited the Lord in statues.13. Then I created Siddhas and sadhs, who also could not realize the Lord. **On whomsoever wisdom dawned, he started his own path**. 14. None could realise the Supreme Lord, but instead spread strife, enmity and ego. The tree and the leaves began to burn, because of the inner fire.None followed the path of the Lord.15. Whosoever attained a little spiritual power, he started his own path. None could comprehend the Lord, but instead became mad with `I-ness`.16. Nobody recognized the Supreme Essence, but was entangled within himself. All the great rishis (sages), who were then created, produced their own Smritis.17. All those who became followers of these smritis, they abandoned the path of the Lord. Those who devoted themselves to the Feet of the Lord, they did not adopt the path of the Smritis.18. Brahma composed all the four Vedas, all the people followed the injunctions contained in them. Those who were devoted to the Feet of the Lord, they abandoned the Vedas.19. Those who abandoned the path of the Vedas and Katebs, they became the devotees of the Lord. Whosoever follows their path, he crushes various types of sufferings.20. Those who consider the castes illusory, they do not abandon the love of the Lord. When they leave the world, they go to the abode of the Lord, and there is no difference between them and the Lord.21. Those who fear the castes and follow their path, abandoning the Supreme Lord. They fall into hell and transmigrate again and again.22. Then I created Dutt, who also started his own path. His followed have long nail in their hands and matted hair on their heads . They did not understand the ways of the Lord.23 Then I created Gorakh, who made great kings his disciples. His disciples wear rings in their ears and do not know the love of the lord.24. Then I created Ramanand, who adopted the path of Bairagi. Around his neck he wore necklace of wooden beads and did not comprehend the ways of the Lord.25. All the great Purushas created by me started their own paths. Then I created Muhammed, who was made the master of Arabia.26. He started a religion and circumcised all the kings. He caused all to utter his name and did not give True Name of the Lord with firmness to anyone.

In Vaars, when all failed and humanity was crying and burning in the fire, Waheguru Himself came in the form of Nanak. Bhai Sahib says, “Aap Narayan Kaladhaar..” clearly means that Guru Sahib was Himself Waheguru.

You probably think with gurmantar- vahiguroo, sikhs can only get to sachkhand and with mool mantar sikhs get to karam khand, what a pile of bullocks. I cannot beleive tat khalsa mindset is discriminating between guru ghars mantars now, came from same sri guru nanak dev ji. It just amazes me.

I never made that claim. You yourself are making up crap and then refuting it. Reading Bani encourages one to do naam japp and naam raises the surtee to sachkhand. Both are important. Bani gives gyaan of naam and Waheguru. Naam gives muktee.

Other points have been addressed and need no repetition again. I only wrote this post to clarify what you misinterpreted and address the points that humans are not praised in Gurbani but only Akaal Purakh is. Guru Sahib, Waheguru, is also praised but no human beings, which you advocate. Bachittar Natak also states that previous avtars had failed and Bhai Gurdas Ji states that Waheguru Himself had to come. Bhatts call Guru Sahib the greatest and Satguru of all ages. Satguru is only One according to Gurbani. There are not and cannot be multiple Satgurus. Only Waheguru is the true revealed naam according to Gurbani. Raam, Hari, Narayan, Allah etc are man made and will have some effect and benefit humans but will not take anyone to Sachkhand. Only Gurmantar will. I think you are really brainwashed by sanatan sants who will go as far as rejecting Bani for the sake of Hindu mythology. Nice having discussion with you. Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh