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Kaurs In Punj Piarey


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i totally agree namstang. Original gurmat is dying out and becoming a romanticed modern 2007 religion that suits to modern standards. People even have the nerves to say Guru Maharaj did'n have 3 wives and come up with excuses and deny the Bani of Guru Gobind Singh maharaj because it does not fit in with their mindset.

The Granths of Sant Baba Gurbachan Singh bhinderwaleya should be translated into english and brought to the west so that the true essence of sikhism can be shown to the people. Sikhism is a philosophy that guides man towards succes, and not just a plain set of rules.

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These white american sikhs are going to move ahead of soo much sikhi wise and were just goingto be here argueing. They are amazing gursikhs. Majority of them keep the 5th kakkar as keski, they dont believe in caste and they wakeup at amrit vela. They will pay a big part in the on coming khalsa raj.

:WW: :WW: :WW: :WW: :WW:

Dass partially doesn't agree that statement above about 3ho.

Dass, has sent you a PM..read it

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Guest Hardeep_S_Khalsa
And right, if you wanna jump on the "men and women have different roles bandwagon" then why did guru sahib give women the same exact kakkars as the men, why did guru sahib even bless women with amrit? A weapon such as the kirpan (or sword) is thought to be masculine tool that one would expect only men to use, why would guru sahib give women a kirpan also?"

Now we are moving into a much deeper discussion. There are hardly any evidences to suggest that women took amrit in 1699 or even the centuries after. The names "Mai Bhago Kaur", Mata Sahib kaur and mata sundri kaur does not exist in any of the old granths written on sikhism. our holy Matas have never signed their hukamnammas with "Kaur" nor is Mai Bhago adressed as kaur in any of our old books, which suggest that women did NOT take amrit back in 1699, nor are there any historical sources mentioning women taking amrit.

this has nothing to do with inequality, because we have to look at what the main purpose of the khalsa really was.

The purpose of the Khalsa was to function as an army of God, as disciplined knights of Maharaj that were to uproot tyranni and establish peace. taking amrit back then meant that you would have to join the armed forces of Maharaj, and become a living martyr as there was a price on the head of every sikh. taking amrit back then was a serious thing, not as today where they hand out amrit to everyone, because when you took the saroop of Maharaj, then the mughals would hunt you down and kill you..

The men joined the forces, and the women stayed at home and took care of the children and brought them up to become great wariors for the sikh panth.

a wise singh once said "A man has to become a man by taking amrit, while women are born women"..

equality does NOT mean that everything has to be the same. there were no female Guru's but this does NOT mean that we do not have equality in sikhism or that the holy Gurus were hypocrites.

even among Nihangs, Nirmalas and others who have a lineage going back to maharaj(even naamdharis agree on this), then women did not take amrit back then. it only started happening after Singh Sabha..

i apologise for my english, as im not living in a english speaking country.

Are you saying that women did'nt take amrit in guru jee's times and women taking amrit has recently just started?

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QUOTE(Hardeep_S_Khalsa @ Aug 9 2007, 05:27 AM)

These white american sikhs are going to move ahead of soo much sikhi wise and were just goingto be here argueing. They are amazing gursikhs. Majority of them keep the 5th kakkar as keski, they dont believe in caste and they wakeup at amrit vela. They will pay a big part in the on coming khalsa raj.

Why?

Why are they going to move ahead sooo much in sikhi? Im not taking anything away from anybody, but why do people seem to think that for some reason people who have adopted sikhi from a non-punjabi back ground are/will be better sikhs than those with the punjabi background?

is it because we still have the 'white is better' mentality? does it make us feel better and more acceptable if 'white' people take on sikhi as if this somehow gives sikhi some sort of justification i.e. its like little kids saying 'look look if sikhi is good enuf for white people it must be good hey'. is this not racist against punjabi sikhs? tell me are they going to move ahead of gursikhs like bhai mani singh ji, baba deep singh ji, sant kartar singh ji? these 'white' sikhs existed during the 80's, and they saw their fellow sikh brothers and sisters being slaughtered, but i have not heard of a single 'white' person going into punjab to fight. punjabi sikhs from overseas went to punjab, so why not the whites? sorry if this sounds racist, but im tryin to explain that race, colour and continent have nothing to do with being a better sikh or not. it is your bhagti, not your colour that is important.

i guess wearing a keski is a sign of greatness as well now hey? damn all of us poor kes believing people.. were doomed!! give me a break. a lot of comments have been about how 'good' and 'beautiful' the sisters look in the amrit sanchar. lol this is wat our sikhi boils down to, if the bibia look good then it must be chardi kala!! lol

anyway rant over back to the question.

guru ji gave us equality yes. but this is not what the modern concept of equality is. for 2 things to be equal they must be EXACTLY the same. now using common sense, NO 2 people can be exactly the same physically can they? there are countless differences physically between men and women, so to say that they are equal is false, as clearly they are NOT!

spiritual equality on the path to god yes, cus that is the only thing that is important, spirtually we are all women, so yes on that we are equal.

If men and women were designed to be completely equal, then why cant fathers give birth to their chilideen? why is that role reserved for women only? hasnt guru discriminated against men on this point? as someone already said, women give birth to humanity, and the men (in role as panj singhs) give birth to the khalsa. if women are also to give birth to the khalsa, then please guys line up and let me see you giving birth to ur little babbies too, its all about equality after all.

and in the amrit sanchars, why do singhs only remove their trosuers? i hope the people supporting the notion of women taking part in this role, will also argue that women should also remove their salwars, pjameh in the amrit sanchar. its equality after all.

in the amrit sanchar, the panj singhs HAVE to sit in a certain way, they cannot cross their legs and sit on the floor, or sit on chairs or lie down, cus the way they sit has an effect on the amrit yes? this is a physical action having a spiritual effect on the amrit. so, if the way we sit (the physical) has an effect on amrit, wouldnt the fact that the person sitting having different physical organs also affect the amrit?

the fact is most people crying about women not being able to act as singhs in the amrit sanchar have probably never done sangat with gurmukh kaurs. the elder kaurs will mostly laugh at this notion and tell u to shut up. funny thing is you will then say that they are culturally restricted and have been made to think this way by men over allll these years. poor poor chardi khala kaurs!

anyway as singh has said.. this has been discussed to death! check out the old threads!

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Are you saying that women did'nt take amrit in guru jee's times and women taking amrit has recently just started?

Yes this is what im saying. there are no historical refferences to women taking amrit before the coming of Singh Sabha...

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Guest Hardeep_S_Khalsa

We will see in the upcoming khalsa raaj what role white sikhs will have. I think their awesome gursikhs, leaving their previous religion and embracing sikhi. I am inspired by them. :WW: :WW: :WW: :WW: :WW:

The reason why I think they will move ahead is because they don't believe in caste and are not prejudice. When one comes from another religion, into sikhi, look at allthe dificulties and hardship ones have to go through: Work, family, friends, job and also lifestyle.

Waking up at amrit vela, doing naam abyiaas and nitnaam.

Stop eating meat, drinking alcohol and other drugs.

Growing hair and wearing dastar

Family pressure

Going to work, seeing friends and family with new roop of Guru Gobind Singh

The majority of white, black, hindu, muslim and budhist gursikhs have to go through these changes and it all comes down to love. Thats why I have a lot of respect for them.

:WW: :WW: :WW: :WW: :WW: :WW:

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Guest Hardeep_S_Khalsa
Are you saying that women did'nt take amrit in guru jee's times and women taking amrit has recently just started?

Yes this is what im saying. there are no historical refferences to women taking amrit before the coming of Singh Sabha...

Are you saying then bibia can't reach the 4th stage of sehaj or can't merge with god. To become a gurmukh you need the perfect GURU which is Guru Granth Sahib Jee. Guru Gobind Singh jee gave 5 pyare his roop and guru jee instructs every sikh to go through the amrit initiation ceremony. This is wear 1 gives his mind and head to guru jee. From that day, the gursikh which recieves amrit can only achieve the spirtual heights of sehaj, anhad shabad and dasum duar opening.

AMRIT IS COMPULSORY FOR BOTH GENDERS: MALES AND FEMALES

Also bibia are allowed to do keertan on stage, whats wrong with that??

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Are you saying that women did'nt take amrit in guru jee's times and women taking amrit has recently just started?

Yes this is what im saying. there are no historical refferences to women taking amrit before the coming of Singh Sabha...

Are you saying then bibia can't reach the 4th stage of sehaj or can't merge with god. To become a gurmukh you need the perfect GURU which is Guru Granth Sahib Jee. Guru Gobind Singh jee gave 5 pyare his roop and guru jee instructs every sikh to go through the amrit initiation ceremony. This is wear 1 gives his mind and head to guru jee. From that day, the gursikh which recieves amrit can only achieve the spirtual heights of sehaj, anhad shabad and dasum duar opening.

AMRIT IS COMPULSORY FOR BOTH GENDERS: MALES AND FEMALES

Also bibia are allowed to do keertan on stage, whats wrong with that??

Hardeep singh ji,

There are three layers of one amrit ceremony- one intiation(outer intiation- khanda batta) amrit, second most important is naam amrit, then third amrit is bhramgyan amrit attained by kaamiya of naam amrit.

No one is denying that sikh women didnt had naam amrit, off course they had naam amrit , otherwise they be nirguraie falls into category of guru maharaj ji tuk- gurmantar hin prani kokar, shokar...

i think point here discussed by sikha that there is no puratan resources mentioning that women had khanda batta da amrit (outer intiation). No one is disputing that they didnt had any amrit at all. They might have just had - naam amrit along with naam jugti/vidhi via kirpan amrit or naam amrit alone by mahapurshs in panj pyares seva. This is what we are trying to khoj.

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