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Guest Amandeep Kaur

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Guest Nipwan

I have seen this type of behaviour before. Especially in cults that have a leader whose doing some religious type of healing (the subject ends up in some type of religious trance and starts to shake and become uncontrollable, it looks similar to a fit and it seems that the subject is unaware of themselves completely). I think the scientific community is largely undecided as to what is taking place here, however many of them look at it negatively as some sort of mass hysteria type of phenomenon.

The main question is, which of the Guru's exhibited this type of process to reach enlightenment, did any of the Guru's assist their disciples in reaching enlightment using such methods? Is there ANY evidence that this type process or behaviour was prevalent amongst historical Sikh times or during the days of the Guru?

If the answer to this is No, then where did Ajit Singh aquire this from? My main reference is to the physical symptoms that are exhibited by the devotee (uncontrolled shaking, fits etc).

I think most people assumed that Simran was done in a Yoga like way, where the subject sits crossed legged, concentrates on God and performs NamJaap or recites a religious mantra. It is thought that that his how the Guru's meditated on God.

Adding to this, the wide assumption was that to help achieved enlightenment, one meditated on Gods name.

Would this type of method taught by Ajit Singh by classified as meditating on God?

These are several questions I pose to you for my own curiousity. I am only asking these to find out more, I do not have an opinion to whether this method of religious devotion is positive or negative.

Thanks

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Waheguru.

THE GOOD:

I have just started attending the Swindon diwans this month. Have only been to two so far.

I must say that everything Bhai Ajit Singh says 'feels' true, deep within. He explains Gurbani, not with his own words, but using other sections of Gurbani. He will answer your questions about Gurbani, using Gurbani and that surely can't be a bad thing?

In this Sunday's diwan he said there are 3 important things ("1. To say Waheguru", "2. To listen to yourself saying it") he said no matter how much you do this, it is futile if you do not do "3. Live your daily life honestly and truthfully as a gurmukh would".

None of this feels wrong to me at all. I also raised some questions with Bhai Ajit Singh at the end, as he welcomes as many questions from the sangat as they want to ask. He answered my question as a true Gurmukh and again his answer felt right.

This sunday's topic in particular was about 'Ninda/Chugli etc...' (I did listen carefully, although my eyes were on the Tabla player, as i am learning to play myself!!!). Bhai Ajit Singh also mentioned we should not bad mouth anyone (including other factions of Sikhs, other religions, anyone), as we are all God's creation. To see God, all you need to do is look around you as his creation is everywhere. If you bad mouth or find fault in anyone or anything, you are bad mouthing and finding fault in God's creation because ultimately he is the one true creator of everything. I don't like to think about things as being right or wrong (as that easily leads us to fear, hate, anger, suffering, as Yoda would say!), it also leads us to pride and ego. I like to look at things being on different paths in life and we have to try and focus ourselves to the path we want to be on. Ultimately, even this is in God's hands and we can only live according to his Kirpa.

So to summarise, everything Bhai Ajit Singh has said in the past two weeks feels right and i will be going again this Sunday. If not for anything but for the amazing Kirtan. The Sunday's diwan uplifts me for the week ahead, so again, it can't be a bad thing.

THE BAD:

The one thing i still fail to understand is why the guy sitting 3 feet to my right, lept up in the air like a frog and started having what one can only describe as "an epileptic fit". He accidentally knocked the turban off the guy sitting next to him when his arms were flailing around. He wasn't the only one this happened to, as there were several others, and a woman towards the end of the Diwan. When this happened to them, others had to restrain them and layed them down. The feet pointing towards SGGS (in this particular circumstance, when the person seems to have lost control of their body) does not worry me too much. I always remember hearing the story of Guru Nanak Dev Ji's feet pointing to Mecca and him telling the 'maulwi' that God is everywhere. So i'm not sure why we make such of a big deal about not pointing the feet towards SGGS, because surely God is everywhere. Is a bad person, who doesn't point his feet towards SGGS any better than a good person who lives his life according to SGGS but may point his feet towards it?

Getting back to the point. It was a real distraction seeing the fits and has got me thinking. Not about Bhai Ajit Singh and what he preached but the about the people that have the fits.

I also cannot comprehend or understand the following scenarios:

1. Did our ten gurus go through this stage of having fits?

2. Did Bhai Ajit Singh himself have these fits?

3. What would happen to someone doing Waheguru simran in their own at home, if they had a fit?

4. Is it all simply down to the way these people are breathing, which causes them to hyper-ventilate or simply starve themselves of oxygen because they don't know how to breathe properly?

SUMMARY:

Apart from the fits, I have heard or seen nothing bad going on at Swindon. In fact, they seem to be taking a fresh approach to things. In that Bhai Ajit Singh receives no money when doing Kirtan and was himself serving Parshadas to the sangat at the end; rather than sitting in some hidden room giving Naam in privacy. He made a point of doing it in the Sangat. There is no committee at the PMKC Swindon gurudwara as it is run purely by the sangat.

The cynic in me sometimes wonders if it is this 'positive' change that others are afraid of because it hurts their own pockets?

CONCLUSION:

So i have questions which need answering. Rather than thinking up answers of my own, i will ask Bhai Ajit Singh myself today. As he openly gives out his phone number and welcomes any questions.

In my opinion it is always best to get the news "Straight from the Horse's Mouth" as they say.

Once i have spoken to Bhai Ajit Singh, i will post his answer here, which i hope will clear both mine and the rest of the sangat's doubts about what is going on.

As for the lady who put up the original post i can say only one thing (not that i am wise or have much experience in life):

"Do what YOU feel is right within YOU. Anything you do whilst meditating on God, can only be right, if you did it with true love and affection for God. If someone is forcing you to do something then you will be living your life as a slave, which is wrong. Here our gurus have taught us to defend ourselves (not by pulling out a sword or fighting) but by exhausting every means available to us, before resorting to the sword."

Waheguru.

5.

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in sikh ideology we must be like the lotus flower.

the lotus flower sits and floats on the water and is totally uneffected by the water current or behaviour of the water. it just sits there and floats, uneffected.

that is how we must be. like and interact with this sansaar, but be totally uneffected by what goes on around us. just be focused on the goal of your destiny.

whatever is going on in you private life is your own, let it happen, and do not try to waver it one way or the other. if you can prevent a conflict, then do so. but if not, shake it off and dont let it shake your atma.

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Waheguru.

UPDATE TO PREVIOUS POST:

As mentioned in the post above i was going to contact Bhai Ajit Singh.

I called him this evening and did not realise that he has a full time job. He was still more than happy to take the time to answer my question.

To be honest a lot of what he said went over my head as i am still very new to not only Swindon but Naam japna full-stop. I have led a very manmukh jeevan and still do to some extent, so do not have the level of understanding about Gurbani that Bhai Ajit Singh does. I do however have access to 'Sikhi To The Max' which allows me to search myself to confirm what Bhai Ajit Singh was quoting from gurbani.

To summarise Bhai Ajit Singh said the following:

1. Not everyone goes through the stages of fits.

2. It is not something that would happen with you doing simran on your own in a room.

3. It is not due to a breathing problem/hyper-ventilation/suffocation etc...

4. It has something to do with us being in 'Tregun' and when we awaken our sleeping 4th stage ???

5. He mentioned words such as 6th house, 'Paun', 'Shabd Surt' ???

6. He said it could well happen to me and only then would i truly understand what the people having the fits are experiencing.

7. When people have fits they are basically in a state of ecstacy and do not want to stop/leave the state their in, the fits are them putting up a fight of some sort to not return from that state ???

8. The people who have fits are failing to do something correctly which causes the fits. They are then taught further techniques of how to stop having the fits and reach the blissful state, calmly, without injuring themselves or others.

9. The reason people don't see this happening in other factions of Sikhs is because these methods have become 'gupt' are only being rediscovered now ???

Bhai Ajit Singh said he would dedicate a future diwan to explain this whole 'fit' thing further in the coming few weeks and asked that i attend and both see and practice for myself, as it will further clarify why the fits happen.

Unless i have a fit myself, i don't think I'll ever understand exactly what the select few are experiencing and why. I guess that applies to many things in life. I could tell someone how nice a Mango tastes as much as i want but they'll never know what it tastes like until they taste it themselves. Even then, their tastes may differ and they may not like it at all! We are all individuals as 'manmukhs' but have all come from one god and realise this as 'gurmukhs'.

I will continue to go to Swindon because nothing that Bhai Ajit Singh preaches feels outside the Gurbani. When someone has a fit in the Sangat, Bhai Ajit Singh will try and break the fit by stopping the 'Waheguru' simran with 'WJKK WJKF'. The kirtan is also amazing as well as the Tabla player (who i am hoping to pick up some new techniques from!).

I will attend approx 10 more diwans as well as the one week course at the end of July.

I think i will be in a better position to post a more meaningful reply in August sometime. Who knows i may even persuade Bhai Ajit Singh to post his own reply to this thread!!!

I don't feel i am in any position to dismiss or do 'Ninda' of something i have no understanding about, after only attending two diwans.

History shows how our own gurus toiled for years before getting their message across.

I think we are so entangled in this rat race of a world, we expect answers immediately to everything.

I believe the saying goes something like this: "Sehaj Pake So Mitha Hoey, Kali Agey Toey'

Every morning when we wake up:

1. When we first open our eyes, if only we thanked god for giving us sight

2. When we first hear something, if only we thanked god for giving us hearing

3. When we first say something, if only we thanked god for giving us a voice

4. When we first touch something, if only we thanked god for the hands he has given us

5. When we first stand on our feet, if only we thanked god for giving us a complete body

I understand there may be people who have some sort of disability but whatever they still have functional, the above can still apply for those bodily functions.

If we could go through our daily routine remembering the above, no problem would ever seem like a problem.

I thank god for giving me a full able body and have been using a new technique which is working wonders for me.

Every time i face a problem or am about to get angry/worried about something, i close my eyes and imagine if i were blind. My problem, anger and worries disappear!

We spend our lives criticising and moaning and rarely stop to thank god for all he has given us.

Waheguru

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Guest Gurleen

As a Sikh youth living in a western society I have two question that I am unclear about. I have done some research regarding the consumption of alochol and having boyfriend/girl. I still wasn't able to get a clear answer. Therefore, I was wondering if drinking alochol a sin within our religion? and having a boyfriend/girlfriend also a sin?

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Guest SSP

I LOVE SWINDON!!

JUST COME AND SEE SHALL SEE FOR YOURSELF, FORGET PEOPLE WHO CLAIM OR ACCUSE THIS PLACE AS ONCE YOU ATTEND YOUR'LL KNOW YOURSELF WHAT THEY ARE REALLY TRYING TO PROMOTE >>> THE PATH TO WAHEGURU IN ACCORDING TO GURU GRANTH SAHIB!

WHAT HAVE YOU GOT TO LOSE!

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Guest J Singh

gurfateh, lets address the issues presented here:

Ok, so today I went to Swindon and saw with my own eyes that all rumours I have heard are 100% true. This place has mahraj's parkash but does not feel like a gurdwara but more like a cult.

^^why did it feel like a cult? because the sangat have been together for 3+ years and we all know each other and treat other each as family?

In the sangat there are many people some lying down on the floor with their feet facing towards mahraj making groaning sounds and crying etc. The prgrammes basically consists of katha and saas girass simran. At first everything seems fine (although I did think it was a bit strange for ppl to be lying down in the gurdwara)

^^ ppl lying down on the floor have gone into sehaj/sunn there bodies are dead but there minds are awake. bhai ajit singh did explain this openly but you failed to include this in your analysis.

Then some ppl start going crazy and I don't mean like in josh or anand, they literally look like they are having a epileptic fit.

^^ No, we aren't going crazy we are passing through the tats (elements) of the body causing shaking, we do not feel any pain infact we feel anand but when we are being broken it causes us to cry as the shabad is taking us home but we are being stopped. I am stressing the 'we' because i speak from practical experience. oh and believe me it can take alot more then 3 singhs to break the shabad.

After the simran the katha began this basically consisted of Ajit Singh saying that to open ur dasam duaar is very easy and all you need is the right jugti.

^^

jugtis are only given to those who do the practical.

Basically these ppl are brainwashed by him. Although he cunningly doesn't call himself a baba, he is as bad as the worst pakhandis out there. He makes the sangat believe that brahmgian is just around the corner and the way to reach it is by coming to the programmes and getting the jugti from him.

I can totally understand why sangat are so hooked they go there with the hope of getting naam.

^^ naam is only given by the satguru not by bhai ajit singh, this was explained in the diwan 'bin nami mukt na bhavi koi bin

satgur ko naam na pai' I fail to see how he is a pakandi or baba? did he ask for money? were ppl touching his feet?? Please explain the baba aspect.

they totally ignore the fits, they ignore the ppl that are lying on the floor with their feet facing towards maharaj v.disrespectful imho (I think these ppl are suppossed to have reached some high avastha and are in total anand hence the lying down in bliss LOL.gif ) Also they leave these ppl lying down through the ardas?! If they can't even get this sort of basic maryada right how can they even dream of brahmgian?

^^ again, those that have died through the shabad and gone to the dasam dwaar or at least the 5th taat are trying to smaah, this was explained in the akath katha on how to pass the 5 tats, this stops after a short while, shame, and you get even more anand as you start to leave this body - again from practical no just hear say.

Why didnt you confront bhai ajit singh of these issues like you said you would? He openly said has anyone got any questions.

I can tell you from practical experience that me and my friends have been going for nearly 2 years...and since we have been going we have started drinking amrit, passed thru the 5 tats, my granddad has been going to 6months and he has shabads and amrit rass...i could go on but ive addressed every point here, this singh doesn't know what is happening, he doesnt knw the anand we experience when we experiencing the shaking/fits. Why don't you come again and address your questions to bhai ajit singh and he will be happy to answer them openly in the sangat.

you claim to be part of the khalsa panth yet you havent even gone into his desh.

So this means any random person can drink amrit provided they attend every sunday at the prabh milne ka chao gurudwara and listen to bhai Ajit singh ji. I cannot belive for 1 second, cause I saw with my own eyes ppl who drink on a daily basis and are involved in wrong types of practices, not even kesadhari sikhs let alone amrit dharis, shaking during the simran or rather drinking amrit and connecting to the shabad, as you would say. So why go thru all the hassle of taking amrit from the panj pyaras and reading nitnem saheb , rehraas saheb , etc. on a daily basis or spend time with the satsangat or do seva. Are all these people who do this wasting their time? It is ridiculous, I don't know what bhai ajit singh is doing and what is he trying to prove but I found it very disturbing and weard.

You feel safe and secure when you are in the gurudwara, but here it was strange and frightening. You feel happy and contended when you come out of the gurudwara after listening to gurbani but here it was uneasy feeling and heavy heartedness.

Name one gurudwara where ppl are stopped to go out or to the toilets. Take pictures or use cameras to film any programme(kirtan etc.) but here you were denied of all this and your freedom. If this is for the better why is it so hidden? Why sikh guards roam around the hall during katha and simran checking on the sangat?

Freedom is the first thing we learn as a sikh as said 'pritham bhagauti simar ke guru nanak laee dhiyae' which says first remember the sword , which represents our freedom.

Don't ask any questions from bhai ajit singh cause he is going to convince you with the answers,as it would not be the first time anybody asked him this and the answers are tried and tested already to shut one up. Guru granth saheb ji can answer all our questions and bless us with amrit or naam, and no human has the power to provide it by any means.

No one has the power to let you drink the amrit and break the connection to the shabad on their wish except waheguru itself. To my knowledge Bhai Ajit singh is no different to the other babas around punjab with a dera.

A person who cannot say a clean shabad from Jaap saheb ji and Japji saheb ji, which we must read every morning as a sikh, assuming that he has been an amritdhari sikh for a long time now, How one can believe he will make anybody drink 'Amrit Ras'. BIG WORD.

PPl who are experiencing these fits, I hope they keep well and may waheguru help them. Just One last thing, Waheguru will not shake you when you recite its name, it will instead calm you and give you peace, not tears.

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Guest Mr S

To "J Singh"

This is the funniest post I ever seen. To say that don't ask him questions because he will give you the answers is just hilarious! That’s just funny, you must of been a failure at school (as your grammar shows it), just sitting there and not knowing what your teacher was going on about because you didn’t want to ask because you will get the answers.

Just because you don't experience these things doesn’t mean they don't exist. That’s the thing with people like you, you question gurbani which in turn leads to the question that you obviously don't pay attention when you are reading gurbani. It’s real easy to condemn, which I thought wasn't a habit of a Sikh but you sure do set an example of how a munmukh lives their life, Congratulations.

Bhai Sahib never once himself said he gives all this amrit raas out, he specifically states you need to go to the panj pyaar but these panj pyaar being those that are outlined in gurbani. How can you send someone in front of them if they don’t take the responsibilities seriously enough and don't appreciate what amrit is, for you it may be a joke but it isn't. You don't walk into an exam unprepared now do you, takes time and effort, and you need to prepare yourself, which in turn you will appreciate more once you achieve it.

Another thing, don't lie about how your not allowed to go toilets, that’s just sad. The sewadars are there for the sangat, which if you don't know because there is limited space, the sewadar just direct you where to sit so no one gets disturbed and also because when an elder or someone gets up after sitting so long they can assist them. You can use your freedom to go out when you want as people like you have different intentions to those who attend. Obviously you don't realise this because you rather twist and make up stories which again is a habit of a munmukh.

Mobile phones are turned off so it does not distract others and recordings are available after the diwan, they don't stop you because they actually give you recordings. What you forget is that this gurdwara promotes what gurbani states whereas your used to going to the usual gurdwara of gossiping and to the attachment of the materialistic world. Discipline is essential, which has long been forgotten.

You go on about Freedom of speech but what you forget is use that freedom when its true. Bhai Ajit Singh claims no title, all he does is preach what people forget which is taught by us by Guru Granth Sahib. He doesn't take no money and has a full time job with a family to support and devotes his time to the Sikh faith.

Instead of being a coward and making up this stories why don't you either approach Bhai Ajit singh or anyone in the sangat with the questions or if you think you can help people change their life for the better than please start so we can be enlightened.

Not trying to be rude or insult you in anyway just stating the facts to what they are so people who read this are not pushed away from sangat because of your lies and deceit. Give others a chance to change their lives for the good so they don't gain the same habits as yourself.

Feel free to visit the pmkc.co.uk website which shows how diwans here and in moga are not a joke, many diwans have taken place at Singh Saba Havelock Road, Park Avenue, Kings Street, Kingston, Leeds and across Europe & UK. Also mentioning thousands of Sikhs going to Amritsar in India just recently with no problems at all, with the approval of Akal Takt. Look on the website and your accusations will be squashed so your just wasting your time trying to pick at something which isn’t.

All the Best xx

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Guest 5ingh

WJKK WJKF

FAO : J Singh

AMimRqu sdw vrsdw bUJin bUJxhwr ]

a(n)mrith sadhaa varasadhaa boojhan boojhanehaar

You say u read gurbani i have simply taken a pangtee from guru granth shaib jee page: 1281.

How can you say that people cannot drink amrit if gurbani says amrit sadhaa varasadhaa! but only those who really have pyaar and devote time to recite gods name can drink amrit day and nite (boojhan boojhanehaar).

Also gurbani clearly states god is in everyone so why are you discriminating clean shaven people! So clearly that means you read gurbani but it has no effect on you as you dont have atal porsaa (100% faith) on guru jee.

Take a step back i would recommend and go with an open mind and zero your knowledge (for example if there is coke in a glass and you want to put water instead you will have to empty it and then refill it). Sikhi is practical! try it and you may enlighten others about gurus jees message.

Also waheguru is not an it! please respect gods name! as i would not call you it but bhai sahib or singh jee!

WJKKWJKF

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Guest satamk

As a Sikh youth living in a western society I have two question that I am unclear about. I have done some research regarding the consumption of alochol and having boyfriend/girl. I still wasn't able to get a clear answer. Therefore, I was wondering if drinking alochol a sin within our religion? and having a boyfriend/girlfriend also a sin?

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As a Sikh youth living in a western society I have two question that I am unclear about. I have done some research regarding the consumption of alochol and having boyfriend/girl. I still wasn't able to get a clear answer. Therefore, I was wondering if drinking alochol a sin within our religion? and having a boyfriend/girlfriend also a sin?

yes drinking alchol is sin because, this distrubs our mental state, as we will not be able to know what we are doing after drinking alchol. so nasha, drugs are really not in sikhi. having boyfriend and girlfriend is also not in sikhi because this comes under kam. as u probably have heard kam , krodh, lobh, mobh and hankar. Untill we get married we should not have any grilfriend or boyfriend. I hope this has answered ur question

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wjkk, wjkf

I have being reading this topic about bhai ajit singh ji. All i wanna say is please stop gossiping. Just by siting next to the computer and typing on online is not gonna take u anywhere. If u r really not agree with him, then u either talk to Bhai Ajit singh personally. He will be happy to talk to you. If u still not happy with him then, keep ur thoughts to ur self. I have being attending swindon for very long time. I had many questions, all my questions are answered is approprite manner. all these rules that are set in prabh milan ka chao, is to prevent other sanagt geting distracted and to take the full advantge of the simran as well as enjoying it. It is not set to prevent ur freedom. We all sangat attended the diwan to learn something as we consider it is our school. Please do stop this topic. I am really gratefull to the mebers of sikh sangat, who are trying to tell people what is the truth....and explaining more in details about the rules and akhath katha in diwan so thanks

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Guest UNKNOWN

i can assure you that ajit singh swindon speaks only from the bani and nothing else. his main thig that he does is waheguru japp.

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