What Is Gurmat's View On Devi Devte (gods/deities)?

[sher_panjabi]

Daas would like to share a question which a non-Sikh emailed me with and the reply to it. Thanks

Q/ What is the meaning of pauree (stanza) 25 in Japji Sahib, which talks about Brahma and Shiva speaking? What is the first Nanak's view of the Hindu devas? Does the Guru Granth Sahib at some point explicitly reject the Hindu devas?

A/ According to Gurbani Shiva, Vishnu, or Brahma did exist, however they are not given any importance or significance at all. These figures were kings of their respective times. Gurmat does not accept them as God nor as incarnations of God. Like any other human beings, they had virtues and they had weaknesses. Gurbani says:

jugeh jugeh ke raaje kee-e gaavehi kar avtaaree.

tin bhee ant na paae-i-aa taa kaa kiaa kar aakh veechaaree.7.

"In each and every age, God creates the kings, who are sung of as His Incarnations. Even they have not found God's limits; what can I speak of and contemplate? ||7||"

(Ang 423)

It is clear that these kings were normal people but people sung of them and made them out to be Avtars (incarnations of God) and hence they are refered to as "Devtas" or "gods". Similarly the Pharaohs were glorified and projected as living gods and as God who kept creation alive and were the creators of the world. In eastern tradition, for example in Burma or China, anytime the public saw the king or emperor people would lay down and postrate and revered the ruler as God or incarnation of God. For example these figures are sometimes depicted with ten heads or ten arms. This is not to say that they looked like aliens because they were humans. Rather the ten heads is an artists way of depicting that the figure had the power of ten people etc. However, Gurbani is totally clear that no one can put a limit on God and God is unborn. No human can claim to be God. Just as no drop of water can claim to be the ocean.

Gurbani is not a Scripture of Stories, tales or Mythologies. Instead Gurbani uses stories, characters and mythology as a "reference" to explain the Divine Truth about God.

Gurbani is clear that there are countless Brahmas and Maheshs and Vishnus and all are under the power of One Vaheguru.

nirunkaar prabh sadaa sulaamat kehi na sakai ko-oo too kad kaa.

brahmaa bisan sire tai aganat tin kau mohu bhayaa man mad kaa.

"O Formless Lord God, You are eternally intact; no one can say how You came into being. You created countless Brahmas and Vishnus; their minds were intoxicated with emotional attachment."

(Ang 1403)

The Vedic tradition believed that three deities were responsible for creation, sustenance and destruction of the universe - Brahma, Vishnu and Mahesh. However, Gurbani uses their reference and explicitly says that all the functions of the deities are in fact all present within Vaheguru – which means that one should give up worship of deities and worship the True One (Vaheguru). The fifth Pauree (stanza) of Japji Sahib says:

eikaa maaee jugat viaaee tin chele parvaaN.

jiv tis bhaavai tivai chalaavai jiv hovai furmaaN.

ek sansaaree ek bhanddaaree ek laa-e deebaaN.

"(It is believed that) the One Divine Mother conceived and gave birth to the three deities (Brahma, Vishnu and Mahesh who were given duties for creation, sustenance, and destruction). (However) the One (God) is the Creator of the World; the One (God) is the Sustainer; and the One (God) is the Destroyer. God alone makes things happen according to the Pleasure of His Will. Such is His Celestial Order." (Ang 7)

In the shabad "arbad narbad...." (Ang 1035) about creation, it is clear that there was no trinity and the origin is only God. God created these beings.

Furthermore, Gurbani is clear that all these beings are thirsting for the opportunity to get the human form because it is only in the human form that we can get Gurmat Naam and realise Vaheguru:

jis naamai kau tarsehi bahu devaa.

sagal bhagath jaa kee karde sevaa.

anaathhaa naathh deen dukh bhaNjan so gur poore te paae-i-Naa.3.

"So many gods yearn for Naam, the Name of the Lord. All the Bhagats (devotees of God) serve Him. He is the Master of the masterless, the Destroyer of the pains of the poor. His Name is obtained from the Perfect Guru. ||3||"

(Ang 1077)

And also:

brahm mahesh sidhh mun indraa bhagat daan jas maNgee.1.

Brahma, Shiva, the Siddhas, the silent sages and Indra beg for the charity of God's Praise and devotion to Him. ||1||

(Ang 1322)

In regards to the specific example of Pauree 25, Ang 5 of Sri Guru Granth Sahib jee:

aakhahi vayd paath puraan.

aakhahi parhay karahi vakhi-aan.

aakhahi barmay aakhahi ind.

aakhahi gopee tai govind.

"The Vedas and the Puraanas speak/estimate God. The scholars also who lecture (to others) also speak of God. Many Brahmas speak, many Indras speak. Gopis (milk maids who used to adore Krishan) and many Krishans speak of God."

(Ang 5)

It does not refer to a singular figure. There are many Brahmas; there are many Krishnas etc. There are many people throughout history who have been intellectuals, who have thought they are the creators etc.

The last line of the verse/ pauree is the key to understanding what Guru Sahib intends to tell us:

jayvad bhaavai tayvad ho-ay.

naanak jaanai saachaa so-ay.

jay ko aakhai boluvigaarh.

taa likee-ai sir gaavaaraa gaavaar.26.

"O Nanak! God is as Great as He wishes to be. The Eternal True Lord knows Himself (how Great He is). If anyone presumes to describe God (and how Great He is), then that person shall be known as the greatest fool of fools! ||26||"

(Ang 5)

Guru Sahib tells us that in the world there have been countless intellectuals and scholars and there will continue to be. But, till now no one has been able to work out how Great God is and how many blessings is He bestowing upon living beings. Infinite are His virtues and infinite are are His gifts. Without God, no one can know this. This work is not in the capability of humans. That human is the greatest fool who claims to have bundled together all of God's virtues and gifts.

Although English translations are useful and provide great knowledge to Sikh Studies. However, through literal word for word Panjabi or Gurmukhi translation to English causes the implied meanings of a Shabad (hymn) to be lost and for a reader with little or no knowledge of Sri Guru Granth Sahib jee, historical knowledge, grammatical knowledge, knowledge of similies and metaphors, knowledge of culture and tradition refered to etc, the true meanings can be lost.

[Guest waheguruji]

in Hinduism there are 33 million devtas (some say 330 million) but they have a Trimurti (3 King Gods)

1) Brahma (the creator)

2) Vishnu (the perservor)

3) Shiva (the destroyer)

IK OANKAAR the concept of Sikhism

IK - 1

OAN - a ancient a hindu mantra used by yogis because its sound decends the soul upwards this oan refers to the Trimurti Gods (ie Brahma Vishnu Shiva)

KAAR - means creator or Prakash (light) roop (form)

So Guru Nanak said IK OANKAAR meaning thers only 1 Prakash Roop of all these 3 Devtas that is Waheguru (the formless God)

i have one praise for Hinduism they have alot of Gyan (knowledge) but are let down by caste and useless rituals which were first condemned by Sant Kabir

when Muslims arrived in India on the basis of the Quran and Hadith they smashed idols and destroyed Mandirs but the Bani of Guru Granth Sahib Ji has shook the roots of Hinduism with unbelievable Gyaan to make them understand

Bhagat Namdev ( a Hindu Saint) realised this and said a Hindu is blind whilst Turk (Muslim) is blind in 1 eye (Bani Guru Granth Sahib Ji)

the word Raam comes very often in Gurbani and people are misled by these thinking it refers to Raam Chander but Sant Kabir says

i dont worship Raam Chander but only the true meaning of it which Raam the God which is present in everything

Raam Chander was one of the incarnations of Vishnu so was Krishna in Dasam Granth Kalki the one yet to come is mentioned about the word Kaal Ki (Destroyer Of) an age like Kalyug

then came Dasam Granth which people fear as being Hinduvaad but in reality Guru Ji has used Kaal Shabad for Akaal because Guru Ji saw Kaal (the destroyer) also an attribute of Shiva as Waheguru he could only destroy his enemies (in the form of Hindu Muslim armies)

in all Gurdwaras Dasam Granth Ji used to be Prakash but this was stopped then after the Bhog of Akhand Paatth Arti used to be done with Divas (like at Sri Hazur Sahib) this practice was stopped now the Maryada of Jot (Light) is being stopped people saying its Brahman Vaad The Jot is a symbol of Gods power in Prakash Roop

people are so caught up in how to get rid of Hinduvaad but at the same time are losing their history

[jassa]

there are devi devtas .... and guru angad dev ji was a follower of jawala devi .... they use to take jaths for darshan of jawala devi temple in hills .... on one of there visit they need to spend a night ... and they have heard of guru nanak patshah ... so whole jatha decided they should spend a night in there village and they will also do darshan of guru sahib .... in the morning guru angad sahib saw a lady doing jhaddu out side the house of guru sahib .... he recognised him .... it was jawala devi ... and on asking she told at this place she do seva and the things she got from guru sahib is distributed among his followers like him ....

this was the first meeting of guru nanak sahib and guru angad sahib ....

[Guest s133k_s1kh]

there are devi devtas .... and guru angad dev ji was a follower of jawala devi .... they use to take jaths for darshan of jawala devi temple in hills .... on one of there visit they need to spend a night ... and they have heard of guru nanak patshah ... so whole jatha decided they should spend a night in there village and they will also do darshan of guru sahib .... in the morning guru angad sahib saw a lady doing jhaddu out side the house of guru sahib .... he recognised him .... it was jawala devi ... and on asking she told at this place she do seva and the things she got from guru sahib is distributed among his followers like him ....

this was the first meeting of guru nanak sahib and guru angad sahib ....

Well Guru Angad Dev Ji never went to Jawalamukhi shrine (distt. Kangra). It was Bhai Lehna Ji (later got the name Angad) who used to lead a batch of worshippers to jwala devi's darshan after his father, Baba Pheru Mal's demise.

I havent heard of this lady brooming outside the house so no comments on tht one :D .

Hinduism is based on mythology. Personally, i don't knw if devis/devatee existed and i dont really care. all i knw is we all should believe in ONE.

[Guest Papi]

instead of going throught these "masands" i'd rather have direct contact with AKAAL :D

[Revolutionary]

Some Hindus may argue "why is there an upside down lotus flower on golden temple? does that not represent Devis/Devtas"

The answer is Yes. It's upside down for a reason - because even THEY bow down to Guru Ji!!

As Paapi Veerji said, why go through the hassle of a bachola.. go straight for Akaal! :D

[sher_panjabi]

The symbolism of a lotus flower is used in Gurbani. It symbolises remaining pure in society.

It "also" could be linked to Hindu devte (i.e. Brahma) however, in Gurmat the only reason for using Lotus flower in Gurdwara art (i.e. the dome) or anywhere else is to represent to remain pure and untouched by society... like the Pure Perfect Guru is in Kaljug to help us.

Bhul Chuk Maaf jee.

[harsharan000]

The Bani says:

Ekas bin sabh dandh hae.

Apart from one Wahiguru Akal Purukh, everything else is temporary, is perishable, thus is false.

These deites have a role to play in the creation, they are also not free from karam.

Unless, be them, or any jeeva/ soul, get hold of Naam or Shabad Guru, all are prisoners in the mayavee creation, with the only difference, some have golden chains, some silver chains, and some other with iron chains on them.

But in the end this means, none is free in this part of creation, and bound to the chaurasee ka chakar, or the wheel of births and deaths; unless by His Gurparasd, we hold on to Naam, to reach our Nijh Ghar, Sach Khand.

Nanak Naam jahaz hae, jin chareeya se utareeya paar.

 

Sat Sree Akal.

[harsharan000]

 

Dhan Dhan Satguru Arjun Dev Maharaj tells us the about SupremeTruth in Raag Bhairao, and something upon the title of this thread:

In simple and clear  words He says:

ਸਤਿਗੁਰੁ ਮੇਰਾ ਪੁਰਖੁ ਬਿਧਾਤਾ

Sathigur Maeraa Purakh Bidhhaathaa

सतिगुरु मेरा पुरखु बिधाता

My True Guru is the Primal Creator Lord, the Architect of Destiny

 

ਗੁਰ ਜੈਸਾ ਨਾਹੀ ਕੋ ਦੇਵ

Gur Jaisaa Naahee Ko Dhaev |

गुर जैसा नाही को देव

There is no deity equal to the Guru

 

First of all He says: the Primal Creator, the Lord Himself, is my True Guru(the dispenser of darkness, with His Light of Naam / Shabad), and then, absolutely nobody, nor any devi, devtay, gods, trinity, is equal or similar even slightestly, to Him. Gur jaisa nahee ko dev.

He Wahiguru Akal Purukh, Himself only, is oooch, apaar, Beant Soami,.

Sat Sree Akal.

 

[harsharan000]

 

Bani Raag Gondh, Sree Guru Arjun Dev Maharaj

 

ਕਰਣ ਪਲਾਹ ਕਰਹਿ ਸਿਵ ਦੇਵ

Karan Palaah Karehi Siv Dhaev |

करण पलाह करहि सिव देव

Shiva and the gods lament and moan,

 

ਤਿਲੁ ਨਹੀ ਬੂਝਹਿ ਅਲਖ ਅਭੇਵ

Thil Nehee Boojhehi Alakh Abhaev

तिलु नही बूझहि अलख अभेव

But they do not understand even a tiny bit of the unseen and unknown Lord

 

From the above couplet of Dhan Dhan Satguru Dev Maharaj, it is quite clear, that no gods, nor even of the trinity, though Shiva may be.....but absolutely none of them do know anything of  Alakh (unseen), Agam (unaccesible), Abhaev (unknown), Supreme Lord Wahiguru Akal Purukh.

 

Sat Sree Akal.