Bhagat Ravidass / Guru Ravidass?

[sikhlionz]

Untouchable/Binna please note multiple IDs are not allowed on the forum.

I will not comment on whether he is truely deserved of Guru or Bhagat title as spiritually i'm obviously nowhere near that level and i have a lot of love and respect for his Bani which is part of the beauty of Guru Maharaj.

We cannot separate off and deny Bhagat Ravidas from the wider Bhakti movement and the formation of the Sikh religion. Bhagat Ravidas was himself a disciple of Bhagat Ramanand - whose Bani is also in Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji. Kabir, Pipa & Sain were also disciples of Bhagat Ramanand alongside Ravidas who became Bhagats and their Bani is also part of King of Kings Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji Maharaj.

Our Gurus have immense love and respect for Bhagat Ravidas. Guru Raam Daas has also said about the spiritual greatness of Bhagat Ravidas ji that people from all four varnas (castes) fell on his feet because of his spiritual attainment. An extract from this hymn is given below on Ang 733 of Dhan Dhan Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji Maharaj:

rivdwsu cmwru ausqiq kry hir kIriq inmK iek gwie ]

ravidhaas chamaar ousathath karae har keerath nimakh eik gaae ||

Ravi Daas, the leather-worker, praised the Lord, and sang the Kirtan of His Praises each and every instant.

piqq jwiq auqmu BieAw cwir vrn pey pig Awie ]2]

pathith jaath outham bhaeiaa chaar varan peae pag aae ||2||

Although he was of low social status, he was exalted and elevated, and people of all four castes came and bowed at his feet. ||2||

nwmdyA pRIiq lgI hir syqI loku CIpw khY bulwie ]

naamadhaea preeth lagee har saethee lok shheepaa kehai bulaae ||

Naam Dayv loved the Lord; the people called him a fabric dyer.

KqRI bRwhmx ipiT dy Cofy hir nwmdyau lIAw muiK lwie ]3]

khathree braahaman pit(h) dhae shhoddae har naamadhaeo leeaa mukh laae ||3||

The Lord turned His back on the high-class Kh'shaatriyas and Brahmins, and showed His face to Naam Dayv. ||3||

ijqny Bgq hir syvkw muiK ATsiT qIrQ iqn iqlku kFwie ]

jithanae bhagath har saevakaa mukh at(h)asat(h) theerathh thin thilak kadtaae ||

All of the devotees and servants of the Lord have the tilak, the ceremonial mark, applied to their foreheads at the sixty-eight sacred shrines of pilgrimage.

jnu nwnku iqn kau Anidnu prsy jy ik®pw kry hir rwie ]4]1]8]

jan naanak thin ko anadhin parasae jae kirapaa karae har raae ||4||1||8||

Servant Nanak shall touch their feet night and day, if the Lord, the King, grants His Grace. ||4||1||8||

Seperating off the 'Ravidassia community' is counter-productive because Bhagat Ravidas was against segregation of all kinds. In the following Shabad:

http://sikhitothemax.com/Page.asp?SourceID...p;ShabadID=1364

Bhagat Ravidas speaks of Begumpura - we need to think carefully what steps we need to take if we wish to see Begumpura. Love, unity, equality and inclusiveness will help us get there and erode all barriers.

So since our Guru - Gurbani belongs to everybody equally Guru Maharaj is all-encompassing. The only difference by going down such route is due to mistreatments of recent times which are better healed with love which leads us back to Sikhi. If you're keeping near-Amritdhari rehit why not take baptism and keep kesh and 5ks? All of the greatest Bhagats kept long uncut hair.

Up to this point you have my love and respect. However regarding the Radhaswami community i disagree with their distortion of Gurbani and misuse of elements of Sikhi. I believe the 5 sacred words used by them are Jot Niranjan, Oankaar, Sat Naam, Sohan(g), Rarankaar? please explain the meaning of each

[Binna]

Bhamver- Of course i agree on your point about worshipping faithfully on the pathway in which you have opted, i respect all religious pathways , they all lead to one outcome ,the teachings may be taught in different ways but mean the same thing. My faith has only taught me equality, to love, and care. But this does not mean you forget about the history and roots of your religion.

Chatengu- Thats a very big judgement you have just made, from childhood i have always payed an equal amount of respect for all gurus and relgious leaders. God is One, but there are many ways to unite with Him. I have never inidividualized another because of his/her faith. Talking about 'Lipservice', im sorry but you are no1 to prejudge my personal thoughts (no offence). If someone's teachings or faith is different this does not mean you don't respect other powerful and divine Gurus, infact from learning about them your knowledge increases the respect you have. You have a little misunderstanding, I do not disagree with anything the Guru Granth Sahib.

Naam- we have guddi nasheen Sant, who bless you with naam, when they feel you are capable and ready to attain.

For more info: http://www.gururavidassji.org.uk/mainpage.htm

Jai Ravidass

Sach Hai Naam, God Bless.

Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh!

[Binna]

Exscuse me, I do not have a multiple ID! The other user is a member of my family.

[chatanga]

Binna i say you pay lipservice becos in one sentence yousay you respect all gurus equally, and in the next you say we do not adhere to the 5 ks. The jyot of the Gurus is one. So you can not say i Beleive in one Guru teachings 100 % and in the other Gurus teachings 50 %. This is why i say lipservice. Its nothing personal.

If you dont disagree wiv Guru Granth Sahib, why wiv Guru Gobind Singh?

Also the Gaddi Nasheen sants , are u talking about SAnt Sarwan DAs and Sant Garib Das? And without the Sant's approval you cannot take Naam?

chatanga

[Guest Dancing Warrior]

Carrying on from what chatanga stated,

“its one and all, or none at all!”

also

“Na hoonda Kalgia wala, raj hoonda moguala da”

We owe our freedoms to the founder of Khalsa path Dasam Patsha Sahib Sri Guru Gobind Singh Ji Maharaj who stepped up to the challenge of both social reform and the tyranny of the mogul oppression To put it bluntly he gave it the two finger salute and empowered us to do the same.

Its your choice,

step out or wallow in.

[sikhlionz]

Exscuse me, I do not have a multiple ID! The other user is a member of my family.

both of the accounts are new - your family is very interested in this particular topic :D

Rather than sending personal messages let's discuss here. With regards to Bhagat Ravidas and Gurbani you have our love and respect. However regarding the Radhasoami Fraudsters - Veerji you are not the first person to be tricked by these kind of pakhandi babay. The cult has fractured with the same scam being used under a million different pakhandi dehdhari "sants" to dupe innocent people like yourself into their deras. I'm sad to tell you that your "guddi nasheen sants" are part of a similair setup.

A true follower of Bhagat Ravidas would follow Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji and all ten Gurus and would join the Khalsa.

Gurbani was revealed as Divine to Guru Nanak Dev ji. It is through Revelation from the Lord Himself that we have the Mool Mantar and Waheguru GurMantar.

These 5 sacred words are not from Bhagat Ravidas. Radhasoamis copy and distort aspects of Sikhi. Some of these 5 sacred words (Jyot Naranjan, Oankaar, Rarankaar, Sohang, Satnaam) are copied from Gurbani. could you explain the meaning of Rarankaar? what are the origins of the words do you expect us to believe any of your babay had Divine Revelation on par with Guru Nanak?

Why does your cult believe in the same 5 sacred words as Radhasoamis? Radhsoamis don't even believe in the singleness of Vaheguru. They believe in five Gods namely Kaal, Brahm, Parbraham, Sohang Purash and Satpurash.

In Gurbani Brahm, Parbraham, Naranjan are all one and the same thing. Vaheguru himself controls the whole world and there is no negative force in existence parallel to Vaheguru. Nobody is a challenge to Vaheguru.

RS has no faith in Kesh. Then why does their "guru" - keep kesh? "Gurinder Dhillon" used to cut his hair and trim his beard. Why did he stop cutting his hair and beard after he became the guru of RS and why did he start wearing a turban? Same reason "Sant Hari Das" and Sant Niranjan Das" kept beards and turbans. Obviously it was not because of spiritual reasons since you guys don't believe in any connection between spirituality and kesh. The sole purpose of them wearing turban and long hair is to mislead Sikhs and other innocent people. Can you give any other reason?

The moment you follow any leader before our 10 Guru Sahiban and Siri Guru Granth Sahib jee, you cease to be a Sikh. If these cults are so great why do they rely on using Gurbani of Siri Guru Granth Sahib jee Maharaj to preach their cult?

all this does is keep people following pakhandi babay, keep people segregated, and keep people away from the kind of society Bhagat Ravidas was trying to create.

[proactive]

Binna

You are quite mistaken if you think that your sect/organisation goes back all the way to the 13th Century. Ravidassi is a movement that owes its origin to the 1950s and 1960s. It is so-called lower castes from Punjab who had come over to the UK and with their money been able to set up Ravidassi organisations. Even the birthplace of Bhagat Ravidas has been built or renovated with money from UK Ravidassis. The lower castes in the place of his birth are quite oblivious to his 'Guru' status. Teachings of Ravidass have been virtually forgotten in UP the place where he was born, it is only due to the inclusion of his Bani in Guru Granth Sahib that Ravidassis have access to his teachings. In Punjab very few of the lower castes describe themselves as Ravidassis and this is also the case of these people outside of Punjab as well. As far as I know I don't think the Ravidassi experiment has been attempted in US or Canada yet. Elevating Bhagat Ravidas to a Guru is just an attempt by one section of the community to segregate themselves from the others. Using excuses as 'we were discriminated against' doesn't hold water. For some people the only way to keep power in their community is to segregate it. If the discrimination excuse was the reason then why is it that Sikhs from Chuhra background haven't set up someone as a Guru for themselves. The Gurus were without caste and only those who cannot understand their teaching need to look elsewhere for Gurus of their own caste.

[chatanga]

proactive, thats a good post, but you have to have some understanding of why the chamars took the step they did, alto it was the wrong step to take. they had been on the recieving end of the high castes and they felt that they wanted/needed to give the higher castes sikhs the heave-ho. However the times have changed and especailly outside of india , very few people give the caste system any merit. So the greivances that the chamars ahd and they were genuine issues are not really there outside of India, where as you say the Ravidas movement took place.

I am so sad for these people becos in order to prove their seperateness from Sikhi, they have in some places made an idol of Bhagat Ravidas and began to worship it. They started by shunning sikhi, now they have even turned their back on Bhagat Ravidas.

chatanga

[Eagle Hunter]

Sat Shri Akal

I want to answer against your opinion about my Satguru Ravidass

Dear Akali

See

[chatanga]

Sat Shri Akal

I want to answer against your opinion about my Satguru Ravidass

Dear Akali

See

is that it?