Bhagat Ravidass / Guru Ravidass?

[Untouchable]

Bhamver Fateh Singh has provided an example of the oppression that Chamar and other low caste people experienced and I agree with what he/she is saying. In this day and age it is not as extreame because of laws and change in social status as people are becoming educated and richer. I also live in Birmingham and i grew up in Lozells, I go to Guru Ravidass Gudwara on union row. When somebody asks me what religion I am I say Ravidassia and I explain what this means. This my identity and we need to create an awareness.

The impression I get from sikhs (friends, colleagues) who do not know much about it is that it is some what distant to sikhi. We believe in the Granth Sahib, the teachings of the 11 Guru's aswell BUT we also believe in the teachings of our Guru Ravidass especially around EQUALITY. Guru Ravidass was not Hindu and like Guru Nanak he did not have any religion but GOD.

The reality is that people like power and if they can exercise this on others who are weaker (economically, socially) they would to make them selves fell superior.

[Mista Singh]

Untouchable -

I dont know a lot about Patarai but from what i have researched on Misls i have found that the Ramgharia Gurdwareh have nothing to do with caste as the Ramgharia Misl of The Khalsa Army was of mixed "castes" and not just for one particular caste.

The founder of the Ramgharia Misl was Sardar Khushal Singh who was a Farmer (Jatt) from the village Gaggo Booha in Amritsar. He was baptised by Baba Banda Singh Bahadur.

After the death of Sardar Khushal Singh, Nand Singh also a farmer (Jatt) of Sanghana took over the Misl and was the next leader. On March 29th 1748 in Amritsar Nand Singh re named the Misl as Sanghainan Misl which then later became known as the Ramgharian Misl.

The three Grand Sons of Hardas Singh a carpenter (Tharkan) from the village Sur Singh, Amritsar who was baptised by Sri Guru Gobind Singh Ji himself joined Sardar Nand Singhs Misl and one of the the three brothers Jassa Singh was apointed the Misl Commander. Later Jassa Singh became the Misl leader after the death of Sardar Nand Singh.

Ref. The Sikh Misls and The Punjab By Sohan Singh Seetal.

So from this it is clear Ramgharia had nothing to do with caste its just Tharkans named Gurdwareh after Jassa Singh and this became caste associated just because Jassa Singh was Tharkan which is wrong because Ramgharia Misl was a Misl of the Khalsa Panth which obviously denounces castes.

No disrespect to Ravi Daas followers but to put Ramgharia Gurdwareh and Ravi Daas Temples in the same boat is not right because Ramgharia Misl has been a strong part of the Khalsa Panth where as the Ravi Daas followers have nothing to do with the Panth.

Although i do agree that it is wrong for the Ramgharia Gurdwareh to be caste orientated, very wrong and needs to be stopped soon along with their party antics.

Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh

[chatanga]

Binna, i would liketo share a few facts wiv you. up until about the times of Baba Banda Singh there was no difeernence between any castes in sikhs. with the fall of the sikh raaj, the caste came back in, when brahminism crept back into sikhi.

the sikhs then divided themselves, and the lower castes ( to which i myself belong) received bad treatment at the hands of the uppercastes. with the emergence of ambedkar , lower caste people became politically aware and began to mould their focus into a " we ourselves" mindset. This included thier own religion, which altho structered around Guru Granth Sahib, has been changed here and there to fit in with the preferences of the chamar community. This religion has been noised to be based on Bhagat Ravidas, but he had to be transformed into Guru Ravidas, becasue Guru sounds much higher in status than Bhagat. A political party BSP etc has been championing the politiacl cause of low castes for 30 odd years now.

I tell you now Binna , and please tell everyone you can that the only answer to unity to Amrit. Come to the fold of the Khalsa brotherhood and take the protection of the Naam.

[Guest Dancing Warrior]

To some he was a Bhagath to some he was a Guru what does it matter, His accomplishments far out weigh anything any mortal could achieve today .

Using blunt harsh language now , what I detest is people not integrating both ways often hearing-

“we don’t go there it’s a chamarada’ Gurdwara”

“we don’t go there because its more of a Hindu temple”

And

“we have our own temple because we are discriminated against in India what‘s different here”

“why should we integrate? He was a Guru and they say he was only a Bhagath”

And so on and so forth, a lovely little system of clan apartheid.

[chatanga]

DW you are too right, sometimes im appalled at the langwij some of the different castes use towrards each other, and i think would Guru Ji ever approve of this?

[Untouchable]

Bhamver Fateh Singh, firstly I did not know if this is your actual name or a name that you like to use hence me questioning your gender.

I think you did not entirely understand the point i was trying to make. I am not trying to put Ramgharia in the 'same boat' as Ravidassia - what purpose would that serve?? what would i achieve or prove by doing that??

My point is that there are sects within Sikhi that choose for one or another to go to specific Gudwara's.

I understand your point that Ramgharia came about from Misl of The Khalsa Army but ask yourself what is it recognised as today??. Regardless of how it was originated, people ultimately see it as a caste in today's society.

[Mista Singh]

When i said "in the same boat" i meant that the Guru Ravi Das Temples are not a part of the Khalsa Panth and that Ramgharia Gurdwareh are a part of the Khalsa Panth, although i agree that the Ramgharia Gurdwara is seen as a caste based Gurdwara in todays society.

Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh

[Binna]

Dancing Warrior and Chatanga.

I agree with the foundation of your message around segregation. However, Ravidassia is not something that happened over night. We are talking about something that started in the 13th century. Our guru done alot for poor and socially disadvantaged people and he has had a profound impact on on the Chamar community (not all Chamar's are Ravidassia) up until today.

You can appreciate that Guru Ravidass's followers ranged from Rani's, Raja's, poor, rich, Brahmin's people from all sections of the society. Some of his followers were actually the very people that used to hate 'low caste people' and supported their pursecution.

So we do not choose to separate ourselves for self-righteous reasons but historically it has always been like that. We also beleive in the teachings of the Guru Granth Sahib and respect all the Guru's alike. We do not adhere to specific standards such as the 5 K's - created by Guru Gobind around the time where mogul's were enforcing muslim religion ruthlessly. If you come into our Gudwara you will see photos of all the Guru's including the other ones e.g. Baba Farid Ji and Kaveer Ji.

You see Bhamver Fateh Singh spoke about his grandmother's memories of 'low caste' people being abused by 'higher caste' people and not being aloud in Gudwara's to bow before the Granth Sahib. The Hindu's done the exact things to us ('low castes') when we wanted to go to the mundir. So Centuries later we face same prejudice again when we want to worship the Granth Sahib in which is our Guru's bani. You cannot expect people to just sit down behave and take crap all their life (excuse my french) eventually they will do what they have to so they are FREE and ALOUD TO LOVE GOD IN PEACE.

Chatangu.

I quote your comment: "Come to the fold of the Khalsa brotherhood and take the protection of the Naam".

I have officially accepted Ravidassia Naam Pajan. This is very similar to Amrat Dhari. I do not eat any animal products, I do not smoke drink etc. I have 5 sacred words which are actually the same as the ones issued by Rada Swami. We also do the Parths in the morning and evening and Simran.

I do not appreciate people asking other's who are obviously at peace with their religion to join another. This i find disrespectful as it is insinuating that my religion is somewhat inferior or not good enough. So please do not say this to me and the Sikh religion does not support this type behaviour. God Bless you.

[Mista Singh]

Bina - Waheguru has got a plan for everyone so aslong as your following the path thats been set for you thats the main thing.

Just a quick question though you say you got Ravi Dasia naam which is similar to taking Amrit? In what way is it similar and where did the baptism/ceremony originate from?

Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh

[chatanga]

Dear Binna

i dont beleive you when you say you respect all Guru's alike. I dont beleive that you have the same repsect for Guru Gobind Singh as you have for the others, and i beleive you are just paying lipservice when you say you do. Amrit and the 5 ks were not created by Guru Gobind Singh but revealed by him on the order of Akal. And Guru Ji rebuked the hill chiefs saying these people you call lowcastes ( ie u and me) will recieve patshahis. Now you have given up patshahis and made up your own religion.

Upto a point people of our varna (the 4th) were at one wiv the upper 3 varnas in sikhi. Until caste system came in, and then the lowcaste elders being fed up with the higher castes made a break. a limited one at that. it was the right thing to do at the time maybe, but it was not one made in accordance wiv sikhi. thats why me telling you this 5 name stuff is just something that somone made up becase of his treatment, and its best to leave manmade stuff and come back to what the Guru Granth Sahib says. A lot of what happens in Bhagat Ravidas places of worship ios centered around sikhi, but you have the odd few pratices that have been introduced by people. NOT Guru.

What is Ravidasia nam bhajan and its origins? Or is it another thing that the elders have made up to distinguish themselves from sikhi.

chatanga