Bhagat Ravidass / Guru Ravidass?

[Akali]

GuruFateh!

I would like to know the Sangat's opinion on this matter. Ravidass was a Bhagat. The only issue is that certain elements of our community have made him into a Guru, hence Guru Ravidass. This is evident by the Guru Ravidass Temple on Dudley Rd, Wolverhampton and Guru Ravidass Bhawan on Union Row (off Soho Rd), Birmingham.

My personal opinion is that Ravidass was a Bhagat as there was only the 10 Guru's and the eternal Guru, the Guru Granth Sahib. I now quote Bhagat Ravidass's Shabad 'Sachi Preet.'

'Tumre Bhajan, Kahte jamh phasa

Bhagat heth, gaave Ravidassa'

I draw emphasis on the last line 'Bhagat heth, gaave Ravidassa.' This roughly translates to 'Sings Ravidass, the Bhagat.' This was written by Bhagat Ravidass himself and he refers to himself as a Bhagat NOT Guru. So why do some people in our community refer to him as Guru Ravidass?

I have heard people justify the calling of Bhagat Ravidass as Guru Ravidass by saying that he had a large following and that made him a Guru. But didn't the other Bhagat's have large followings also?

Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa, Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh!

[Jagmeet]

hm interesting point.

Look at the meaning of the word guru? wat does it mean? my guru can be drugs, my guru can be football. from a non sikhi perpective, yes he can be called a Guru.

From sikhi side, there are only 10 gurus starting from Guru Nanak Devi Ji to Guru Gobind Singh Ji. So from a sikhi point, he would not be considered a Guru of sikhi.

But then the knowledge he had, isnt that sikhi?

Bhagat Ravidass refers himself as a 'chamar' in Gurbani. It seems the followers proudly label themselves as this caste. From my personal experience, I see a lot f 'jatt' 'sikhs' slander low castes and vice versa. I have heard myself punjabis (i wouldnt call sikhs) say ' yes they are lower then us'. I have even met amritdhari gursikhs that are so proud of their caste, that they slander other gursikhs because of its.

this is where i forget the point im trying to make.. :lol:

[Surajsingh]

Bhagat Ravidas Ji is respected as Bhagat and every Sikh who follows Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji, calls him Bhagat rest is political propaganda on the basis of caste by Dalit community. They have no understanding of Bhagat Ravidas Ji’s bani recorded in Sri Guru Granth Sahib to begin with. Bhagat Ravidas Ji preached “Begum –Pura” philosophy where there is no hate or propaganda and people were living in harmony and Dalit propaganda starts with hate hence against his views.

[kurtas]

I saw recently that brummie Dal Dhesi (the same dhesi who honoured gurcharan mall with an award after he played his dhol at the opening of the naraqthari centre) had got some picture done of Bhagat Ravidas with a turban. The picture looked rather like the imaginary pictures of our Guru Ji by sobha singh. Looks like some people like to missuse the names of great Bhagats for their own selfish attempts to divide the Khalsa Panth on caste lines which go against everything our Guru Ji taught.

It is rather like the "thakaan" who have to name everything after "Maharaja" Jassa Singh Ramgharia. They even are disgraceful enough to name party halls after the great Jassa Singh.

[The Khalsa Fauj]

It is wrong to say that Ravidass was Guru. He was bhagat, that is what we call him.

Instead of saying 10 Gurus, say Guru Nanak-GuruGobind Singh.

[ms514]

Sat Sri Akal:

For the Sikhs, it is Bhagat Ravidaas. If someone so chooses to become a follower of Bhagat Ravidaas ONLY and believes that to be the only Guru, then by all means, say Guru Ravidaas. But such a person cannot be a Sikh.

The reality of calling Bhagat Sahib Guru is that many "lower caste" Sikhs have been ousted by "higher caste" Sikhs, and in return, have opened Gurudwaras proclaiming Bhagat Ravidaas, from a supposed "lower caste" as their patron and leader, their Guru.

[Binna]

I myself am a strong follower of Guru Ravidass Ji. In reply to the initial post regarding the confusion between Guru Ravidass being a 'bhagat' or a 'Guru', i would like everyone to question what the difference between the general meaning of a Guru and a Bhagat is? A Bhagat refers to a Holy Person who leads humanity towards God, and a Guru is a spritual teacher. So what does the content of a 'Guru's teachings consist, the correct standard of living & requirements in order to one day unite with God, a similar concept which a 'Bhagat' would lead. The only potential difference is that a Guru leads a larger following (sangat) where a Bhagat does not usually preach to attract supporters but preach to highlight injustices in practises of the world. In reference to the quotation 'Tumre Bhajan, Kahte jamh phasa Bhagat heth, gaave Ravidassa' from Guru Ravidass Ji's 40 shabads.I would like to say there are many meanings of the term 'Bhagat' in different contexts, the times when Guru Ravidass Ji lived (said to have been - 13th century), it is claimed that he spoke the 'hindi' language since he lived in a hindu community (Banaras Kanchi- India) and everyone part of that locality was restricted to follow anything but Hinduism. 'Bhagat' in the hindi dictionary defines a 'slave', meaning Guru Ravidass Ji in his shabad was potraying him self as a 'slave' towards God. From my understanding of my faith, the Ravidassia community regard Guru Ravidass as their Guru because he has lead a leading role in setting an example of the importance and reality in believing in God - The leader of all mankind and beyond. He showed us how an individual by himself can go through so much harsh reality to believe in the Holy Father, and how much we should appreciate our freedom to worship God and so we should to secure a place in his kingdom and heart. We class him as a Guru because we are followers of his teachings of humanity, equality ,universal brotherhood & far more! He taught us how to respect all relgious pathways and tolerance.

(As result of Guru Ravidass Ji being a low caste (Chamar) he faced unbearable casteism and unfair prejudice and therefore he was not permitted to follow any faith or worship God , however his powers & divinity with God couldn't stop him from doing anything.He proved to all the discriminates , that NOTHING could stop a man from acquiring the devotion & presence of God within himself, by performing amazing miracles.)

Guru Ravidass Maharaji Ki Jai,

Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa, Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh!!

[Binna]

I myself am a strong follower of Guru Ravidass Ji. In reply to the initial post regarding the confusion between Guru Ravidass being a 'bhagat' or a 'Guru', i would like everyone to question what the difference between the general meaning of a Guru and a Bhagat is? A Bhagat refers to a Holy Person who leads humanity towards God, and a Guru is a spritual teacher. So what does the content of a 'Guru's teachings consist, the correct standard of living & requirements in order to one day unite with God, a similar concept which a 'Bhagat' would lead. The only potential difference is that a Guru leads a larger following (sangat) where a Bhagat does not usually preach to attract supporters but preach to highlight injustices in practises of the world. In reference to the quotation 'Tumre Bhajan, Kahte jamh phasa Bhagat heth, gaave Ravidassa' from Guru Ravidass Ji's 40 shabads.I would like to say there are many meanings of the term 'Bhagat' in different contexts, the times when Guru Ravidass Ji lived (said to have been - 13th century), it is claimed that he spoke the 'hindi' language since he lived in a hindu community (Banaras Kanchi- India) and everyone part of that locality was restricted to follow anything but Hinduism. 'Bhagat' in the hindi dictionary defines a 'slave', meaning Guru Ravidass Ji in his shabad was potraying him self as a 'slave' towards God. From my understanding of my faith, the Ravidassia community regard Guru Ravidass as their Guru because he has lead a leading role in setting an example of the importance and reality in believing in God - The leader of all mankind and beyond. He showed us how an individual by himself can go through so much harsh reality to believe in the Holy Father, and how much we should appreciate our freedom to worship God and so we should to secure a place in his kingdom and heart. We class him as a Guru because we are followers of his teachings of humanity, equality ,universal brotherhood & far more! He taught us how to respect all relgious pathways and tolerance.

(As result of Guru Ravidass Ji being a low caste (Chamar) he faced unbearable casteism and unfair prejudice and therefore he was not permitted to follow any faith or worship God , however his powers & divinity with God couldn't stop him from doing anything.He proved to all the discriminates , that NOTHING could stop a man from acquiring the devotion & presence of God within himself, by performing amazing miracles.)

Guru Ravidass Maharaji Ki Jai,

Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa, Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh!!

[Mista Singh]

When my Bibi was alive i asked her about this and she said that back in Punjab when she used to visit the Gurdwara like some of the Sangaat mentioned above what happened was a lot of "higher" caste Sikhs never let the "lower castes" come around and get involved with Sikhi.

Everyone knows this is wrong and has no place in Sikhi but it happened. So the "lower" castes were forced to make their own following and started following Bhagat Ravi Daas Ji's teachings and this led to the Guru Ravi Daas Temples.

My Bibi said she used to see people get beat up and thrown out the Gurdwara simply because they was "lower" caste, what a disgrace :D

I dont see anything wrong with it at all because they do not claim to have anything to do with the Paanth, they do not have a Nishaan Sahib on their Temples and they dont claim Bhagat Ravi Daas was a Guru of Sikhi, so whats the problem? Everyone needs a path to follow and every Sikh knows Bhagat Ravi Daas teachings were truely Chardi Kala. So let them do their thing and follow their path.

This Hindu caste system has plagued our people, lets not let it blur our vision of people any longer. Every soul on this planet is equal.

Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh

[Untouchable]

For people to understand and evaluate any information which does not fit in their normal belief pattern they first must be open minded and non-prejudice.

I would like to point out that Ravidassia are not the only people that have their own Gudwara's. People from various sects of Sikhi (e.g. ramgaria, patarai) have their own gudwara's aswell.

To be a true Ravidassia means that you are at peace with yourself and the world around you and the foundations of Guru's teachings is equality. It is true that Guru Ravidass was a Chamar and what he done for low caste people is unforgetable. Poor people faced unimaginable levels of oppression in those days and unfortunately so called 'low caste' people still feel it today.

I understand that The Guru Granth Sahib regards Guru Ravidass as a Bhagat but as another member said what is the difference?. The question i ask myself is why was he classed as a Bhagat and not a Guru??? Guru Nanak Ji travelled a long way to meet Guru Ravidass - why??? Guru Nanak spent time with him and took Guru Ravidass's Baani which is in the the Granth Sahib today. What did he need to do to qualify as a Guru????? For me I see this another form of Hirarchy and Prejudice.

If you you keep treating people different and see them as inferior to you they will not hag around and take it, eventually they will go off and follow their own direction and what they believe in. And they will get stronger, look at the Jews, they were persecuted and look at them now.