Bhagat Ravidass / Guru Ravidass?

[Indysinghj]

PunjabKing your obviously not a sikh you must be one of these RSS (A Hindu pretending to be a Sikh) who are trying to destroy sikhism. Just because some of them don't have the same nishan sahib does not mean they do not follow sikhism.

Talking about sikh names, well if you look back when all sikhs were hindu's they all had hindu names, when they became sikhs they just added singh to it. So called low castes have been part of sikhism from the very start but when they were they were going to become amritdhari they were asked to keep there names so other sikhs knew they belong to low castes. This proves that sikhs till know we sikhs do not follow the Guru Granth Sahib, we follow the caste system more than hindus.

What about these days sikhs who have english names, most don't like to have the name singh in their name, does that mean they are not sikh.

You have sikhs from all backgrounds who follow sikhism in different ways, or have translated to the way that it suits them, punjabiking who gives you RSS girls the right to judge anyone. You have sikh temples were they sacrifice bukrah, you have sikh temples were alcohol is served as langar & you have sikh temples which serve meat etc, this is all against the khalsa panth or rehat maryada, they all call themselves sikhs.

I know baptised sikhs who attend mandirs and believe in all suspicious things in life & idol worship, what do you have to say about them. You jump to the chance to deny sikhs from low castes any position within sikh society, yet you don't have the balls follow sikhism yourself, Typical of you hindu RSS.

Only thing you have not disagreed with me is with the chamar sikhs who have contributed to sikhism. Chamar sikh temples are not all called Guru Ravidas Temples. You have chamar sikhs who have named there temples after the ten gurus, you have chamar sikh temples named after shahedd like bhai sangat singh, bhai madan singh & bhai jivan singh. Sikhs from all communities go there. Your mind obviously is not that broad, you only look far as your nose, you look at a few Guru Ravidas temples and you judge the rest of them in the world.

RSS followers like you have always tried to split the sikh community and finance is always on your mind, just the way you have proved in your reply. Guru Ravidas/ Bhagat Ravidas whats the big deal, is that gonna stop you being who you are or stop you being a wannabe sikh.

You don't have the right to judge anyone

I think you will find the majority of Ravidassia temples do not follow the khalsa panth or the rehet maryarda. If you ever seen these places they have some next symbol up instead of the khanda on the flags outside.

Why should we try separate this community? You cant call these temples Guru Ravidass 'sikh' temples as the sangat is not 'sikh', most have hindu sounding names/surnames. Also saying Guru Ravidass is incorrect as we sikhs beleive he was not a guru - he is bhagat. You sound like a choora/chamar indysinghj are you? - dont try changing sikhism! These Ravidassia are not sikh by their actions, ways and how they worship. Its people like you who are polluting our belief. If your choora/chamar then to become a sikh you must reject these temples and go to a proper sikh temple and do things the right way - but I warn you that we will not accept any nonsense like you been talking.

The only advantages I can think off if we do split this community is that then the temples can come under our control - donations from the ravidassia sangat can raise more finances for us sikhs, the land of their temples would boost our assets. We can audit them every so often to make sure they are doing things right etc.

[Indysinghj]

PunjabiKing if you ever go to a Gurdwara you bow to the Guru Granth Sahib Ji, Within our holy book a place is given to all sikhs from all backgrounds from Balmiki, Chamar, Nai, Julaha, etc this means you bow to them and give the same respect regardless of them being a bhagat or guru. The Guru Granth Sahib does not contain bani from all 10 sikh gurus, does that mean you don't believe in the gurus who don't have their bani in the Guru Granth Sahib Ji. The worst thing your probably not a sikh, you sound like a RSS or a hindu.

Yes i am a chamar sikh and proud, i have many family members who are amritdhari. If you don't know what your talking about then your better of converting to next religion

PunjabKing your obviously not a sikh you must be one of these RSS (A Hindu pretending to be a Sikh) who are trying to destroy sikhism. Just because some of them don't have the same nishan sahib does not mean they do not follow sikhism.

Talking about sikh names, well if you look back when all sikhs were hindu's they all had hindu names, when they became sikhs they just added singh to it. So called low castes have been part of sikhism from the very start but when they were they were going to become amritdhari they were asked to keep there names so other sikhs knew they belong to low castes. This proves that sikhs till know we sikhs do not follow the Guru Granth Sahib, we follow the caste system more than hindus.

What about these days sikhs who have english names, most don't like to have the name singh in their name, does that mean they are not sikh.

You have sikhs from all backgrounds who follow sikhism in different ways, or have translated to the way that it suits them, punjabiking who gives you RSS girls the right to judge anyone. You have sikh temples were they sacrifice bukrah, you have sikh temples were alcohol is served as langar & you have sikh temples which serve meat etc, this is all against the khalsa panth or rehat maryada, they all call themselves sikhs.

I know baptised sikhs who attend mandirs and believe in all suspicious things in life & idol worship, what do you have to say about them. You jump to the chance to deny sikhs from low castes any position within sikh society, yet you don't have the balls follow sikhism yourself, Typical of you hindu RSS.

Only thing you have not disagreed with me is with the chamar sikhs who have contributed to sikhism. Chamar sikh temples are not all called Guru Ravidas Temples. You have chamar sikhs who have named there temples after the ten gurus, you have chamar sikh temples named after shahedd like bhai sangat singh, bhai madan singh & bhai jivan singh. Sikhs from all communities go there. Your mind obviously is not that broad, you only look far as your nose, you look at a few Guru Ravidas temples and you judge the rest of them in the world.

RSS followers like you have always tried to split the sikh community and finance is always on your mind, just the way you have proved in your reply. Guru Ravidas/ Bhagat Ravidas whats the big deal, is that gonna stop you being who you are or stop you being a wannabe sikh.

You don't have the right to judge anyone

[punjabking]

Hahaha

Idol worshipping, meat eating, drinking etc anything against rehet maryarda and you still think that is sikhism? Then you have the nerve to try and say because I myself dont go against the rehet maryarda im an RSS or whatever. You make me laugh. Then you come on this site and refer to a bhagat as guru? lol

You admit your chamar and now your lecturing me about sikhism? How dare you! Now understand this and take the message home - A dog born in a stable is not a horse.

[VanHelsingh]

I wasn't even aware Bhagat Ravidaas Ji was referred to as 'Guru' by some quarters until my early-20s (I lived a pretty sheltered life since I was a kid). :biggrin2:

I can appreciate why the Ravidassia community refer to Bhagat Ji as Guru. But do I agree with it? No of course not. What can we do it about it? Nothing much. If they keep on heaping "bhaar" on themselves by referring to Bhagat Ji as Guru then that's their prerogative.

It's when our Gurbani and our Sikh traditions are threatened, then I agree we should act swiftly, i.e. disrespect of SGGS Ji, destruction of Gurughars, etc.

[Indysinghj]

PunjabiKing you call yourself a sikh, you say that you follow the rehat maryada then why do you follow the hindu tradition of castes, Why you believe their is a hierarchy, who are you to determine who is high or low, who are you to say who is a sikh and who is not.

Our sikh Gurus / Bhagats came to teach us that everyone is equal but we judge people on their traditions and way of life and why they do things different, we categorise people into groups and then try to segregate them instead of trying to unite them.

Instead of judging other sikhs, why not be a better sikh yourself. Having the title of Bhagat or Guru is not a big issue, it will not make you a better sikh or not knowing the answer, these are immaterial, by wasting time trying to distinguish which carries more weight is disgusting. Wasting your life trying to figure out why people differ to your opinion is sad. At least these Sikh Bhagats and Gurus are in the Guru Granth Sahib and we should respect that.

One more thing Chamar Sikhs also have their Gurdwara named after all sikh gurus and shaheeds and important figures in sikhism. In the time of Guru Ram Das he allowed chamar and other so called low castes in to the fold of sikhism. The four entrances in Golden Temple are for all people of all walks of life. We have white sikhs converts, its like saying they are not really sikhs when they are. Why judge people.

If you look up Chamar Sikhs from sikh history, then you will come up with Bhai Sangat singh whose appearance was that of Guru Gobind Singh Ji. Having this quality he helped with Guru Gobind Singh's Escape from Chamkaur. Read Up. You Have 40 Singhs of Chamkaur i.e Bhai Madan Singh & Bhai Jivan Singh who were also chamar sikhs. They also had their brothers and sons who became shaheed for sikhism.

You had Shaheed Beant Singh Kalsa who took revenge for the attack on Harmandir Sahib in 1984. His wife till today and family play a big role in Sikhism. The list can carry on but why we need to prove to you when you already have judges the Chamar Sikh Community.

Finally I don't know much on dogs and horses............. Obviously you must belong to the better out of the two..............we sikhs are SHER.

When you go to Harmandir Sahib Ji there is a sign outside before you enter for you "NO DOGS ALLOWED" you must of seen it

Hahaha

Idol worshipping, meat eating, drinking etc anything against rehet maryarda and you still think that is sikhism? Then you have the nerve to try and say because I myself dont go against the rehet maryarda im an RSS or whatever. You make me laugh. Then you come on this site and refer to a bhagat as guru? lol

You admit your chamar and now your lecturing me about sikhism? How dare you! Now understand this and take the message home - A dog born in a stable is not a horse.

[Khalistansingh99]

I think we should just call him guru cause he is the bani and all sikhs say bani ha guru ha bani so just as a respect lets just call him Guru cause we are disrespecting the Guru Granth Sahib Ji

[Akalifauj]

I think we should just call him guru cause he is the bani and all sikhs say bani ha guru ha bani so just as a respect lets just call him Guru cause we are disrespecting the Guru Granth Sahib Ji

In order to be Guru (true Guru), the person has to be chosen by the previous Guru; as Bhai Lehna Ji was by Guru Nanak Dev ji. By your reasoning, we would be grossly disrespecting Bhai Mardana ji by calling him Bhai. Instead he should be called Guru Mardana ji because Bhai Mardana writings are in Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji. It's not that simple. Bhagat Ravidas ji was chosen as to be a Bhagat by Akal Purakh. This shows even a Bhagat and "lowest caste" can reach the great heights of Sachkhand. Bhai Mardana Bani was added to show even the most lowly person (from Muslim background) with little education can reach the heights of Sachkhand. Vaheguru mystery is impossible to explain. Keep diving deeper into Gurbani. People call Bhagat Ravidas, Guru Ravidas out of ignorance and egoistical pride because they have made some kind of superficial connection to him like belonging to the same caste. By doing so, they reinforce the Brahmin caste system that destroyed their ability to be seen as humans.

[JagsawSingh]

Slippery slopes are dangerous. More dangerous still are blind muppets on slippery slopes. We've clearly got more than just a few of them here on this discussion. These fools are too silly to see how they are making a rod for the Sikh's back. Lets just analyse, for one moment, exactly what they are saying is "OK" and "Sikhism" to do.

By their reasoning, its would be perfectly "OK" and perfectly "Sikhi" for all Jullahe Sikhs to elevate the Bhagat Kabir to the status of not only GURU, but as the number one premier Guru. So, that would be a religion with 12 Gurus with one rising above all, i.e the one that came from their own 'caste.

By their reasoning, its would be perfectly "OK" and perfectly "Sikhi" for all Jatt Sikhs to elevate the Bhagat Dhanna Jatt to the status of not only GURU, but as the number one premier Guru. So, that would be a religion with 12 Gurus with one rising above all, i.e the one that came from their own 'caste.

D'ya see now what I mean by slippery slope and making a rod for our own backs ? There is no way in hell anyone in their right mind could describe any of the above as 'Sikhs' following 'Sikhism'. But here's the thing; the above is wild nightmare fantasy whilst the chamar thing is real....very real. Clearly, the supposed 'Sikhs' here supporting the chamars doing this are indeed 'out of their minds'.

[tarisingh]

Sadh Sangat Ji,

Just joined I follow this topic closely and so many others but never had time to respond.

The Ravidass people are not Sikhs and Bhagat Ravidass can never be our Guru despite what people say. Our Guru Shri Guru Gobind Sahib gave gurgaddi to Shri Guru Granth Sahib Ji and that's it. There is no further gurus after that. A bahagt would stay bhagat with all respect to Bhagat Ji's Bani but he can never be made Guru of Sikhs and Sikhs who call him Guru are NOT fit to be Sikhs.

In Birmingham Ravidass Temple and many other Ravidass Temples the Rehit Mariada is our Guru Granth Sahib is regularly blown away. It is neglected, not followed delibrately. Non Amritdhari Singhs or Monnae can be seen sitting at tabya of Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji. Jaikaras of Khalsa Panth are discouraged. These people have their own Jaikaras something like "bol so nirbhay,... etc. etc.". These people don't follow Khanda sahib as Nishan Sahib. Their bhaisa also don't have Sri Sahib too many times.

These people don't believe in Amrit Sanchar, some smoke tambaku and don't consider our Sikh Gurus and Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji as the supreme. I don't know why they keep Gruu Granth Shaib Ji and not follow our rehit mariada. Any place where our Gur Mariada is not followed, Sikhs should remove the paavan saroops of Guru Granth Sahib ji from there.

Still don't know why are these people allowed to keep Sri Guru Granth Sahib in their Ravidass temples when these people have no intention of becoming Singhs and taking Amrit. When these people say Ravidass is Guru and not Bhagat, they literally go against our Guru Sahibs who addressed Ravidass as Bhagat. Singhs must take notice of that. These people have diluted our Sikhi and when we complain, they talk about caste system and give excuses. Is caste system an excuse for going against Bani of Guru Sahibs and making their own guru.

What do they use Guru Granth Sahib for? collecting money in golak?

I have full respect for all religions and Bhagats Bani but we have to see, one side we struggle so much for our identity then in this case, they do what they like and if we complain then caste is thrown at our face. Past is past. They have no right to follow or keep Sri Guru Granth Sahib, if they can't follow Rehit Mariada and call Ravidass as Guru. Guru Sahib has very very cleary said "Rehit Piari Mujhko, Sikh Piara Naahin" and Guru Sahib drew a line with Sri Guru Granth Sahib as last and eternal Guru.

[tarisingh]

when you read bani out of shri gurur granth sahib ji and the baghta di bani starts, it will actually say on the lines of "bhagta di bani ravidas ji ki..."

:rolleyes2:

Good one mate. Case closed. When these Ravidass people say "Guru" Ravidass, they questions the bani of our Gurus. These people have no right to keep Sri Guru Granth Sahib in their buildings if they want to keep of following a Bhagat as Guru. Tomorrow, other sects in Sikhi would make their own gurus.

Singh should respectfully tell these people that Bhagat Ravdass is not Guru and if these people don't listen then bring back saroops of Sri Guru Granth Sahib from their places. Put conditions on these places to follow Rehit Mariada.

I have also heard that some of Ravdass gurughars are willing to marri Gursikh girls with non Gursikhs in their places in front of Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji. Is this ok? What are we struggling for then?