language barrier for converts?

[Khalsa_starr]

language barrier for new sikhs?

By Khalsa Starr

About half a year ago, i converted to sikhism. And even though i don't call myself a sikh yet (not amritdhari yet), i do try to follow as much of the sikh code of conduct to the best of my ability. (thanks to s1ngh!! again)

However, I have noticed something while going to the local Gurdwara - all of the talking in the temple was in Punjabi, especially in the main hall. The langar room was also a difficult place to navigate and talk with others since very few spoke fluent english. There were those who did speak both, but not very easily understood.

This made me ask a question: "is there a language barrier for new sikhs?" especially converts?. I asked this question because for new people, we want to learn new things and more about sikh teachings. Converts are usually very eager to learn more about sikhi (like myslef). However, it a little difficult to learn when you can't understand what is being said!

"I'snt a gurdwara supposed to be a place for learning and enlightment? not a place of confusion and isolation?"

-Khalsa Starr

After asking these questions, i then realized that i am probably not the only one who has run into this wall. While i already know some sikh history and the code of conduct, what about those who are just curious? or want more information? So far the internet has been my greatest teacher, but just think about it - isnt the temple and granth sahib supposed to your teacher?

I asked someone about this, and they said that the granth sahib should only be read and spoken in the "language of the guru's" aka punjabi. Well that's great and all, but to me (and others newbies), the "language of the gurus" is useless and pointless if you dont understand it.

So to make things even more interesting, the gurudwara doesnt even have any english words on the building or nearby to suggest that this is a sikh place of worship. Where is a curious mind supposed to go? Or the new convert? The internet first? come on, if the sikhims was really meant to be learned on the net, wouldn't the guru's mention it? I think not.

I decided to pursue this problem and see what can be done about it. Until then i (and others) will continue to sit on the floor in the main hall and langar room and wonder what our "teachers" are saying...

-khalsa Starr

If any one is interestied in this issue, I'm currently looking for fellow sikhs who are new (converts, or reborn) and sikhs who are open minded and can think "outside the box". I am thinking about setting up a group for this.

[UntitledSingh]

Waheguru Ji Ka Khasa

Waheguru Ji Kee Fateh

The Pure Ones belong to God

May God have success.

How are you Khalsa Ji, I guess things with your mom are better now. About the language barrier you are right. During the times of Guru Nanak the Hindu Brahmins were using a special language that the people didn't know. Guru Nanak choose the language of the people, which was Gurmukhi, then after the Gurus the language of the people became Punjabi, and now in the US its English. I also have trouble understanding things in the Gurudwara. Luckily in my Gurudwara there is a screen that translates the Kirtan from Punjabi to English so its easier. At home I read English translations of the Guru Granth Sahib, and when I go to the Gurudwara I feel lost when they talk in punjabi. I think they do that because they know that the majority of the people there can understand punjabi and not engllish. But times will change and are changing so they will have to use both.

Waheguru Ji Ka Khasa

Waheguru Ji Kee Fateh

The Pure Ones belong to God

May God have success.

[Yasmin]

Peace

I am not a convert but even while learning about Sikhism I can understand where this person is coming from as I do not speak Punjabi so it makes the learning process slower as you have to continually ask people what words and sayings mean that are second nature to punjabi speakers. If you are setting up a group i'm sure it would be helpful for many people

[Ikomkar]

Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa

Waheguru Ji Ke Fateh

The pure belong to God

Victory belongs to God

Please forgive me if I am wrong - but from my understanding, Punjabi is not the language for Sikhs. Yes, the religion started in Punjab and God sent his beloved messenger Siri Guru Nanak Dev Ji to that land to spread the Word of God, but the language is not strictly Punjabi.

The Siri Guru Granth Sahib Ji is a mix of many languages (16 I think). The five main ones being Sanskrit, Hindi, Punjabi, Arabic and Persian. All these combined are called the Gurmukhi or Gurbani (Word of God).

As directed by God, Siri Guru Nanak Dev Ji traveled the earth like no other man of any other religion has ever done. This is not a bias statement, evidence shows this. If you take the 3 other main monotheism religions of the world and their religious leaders this can be easily shown.

Moses the leader for the Jewish traveled in his life time from Palestine to Egypt.

Jesus Christ the leader for the Christians traveled in his life time within Palestine.

Prophet Mohammed the leader for the Muslims traveled in his life time within Saudi Arabia.

Guru Nanak traveled from Punjab to Mecca (Saudi Arabia) and back. From Punjab to Sri Lanka and back. From Punjab to Tibet (China) and back. From Punjab to Dhaka (Bangladesh) and back. If you put these distances out on the world map it goes around the equator twice.

For this extensive travel Siri Guru Nanak Dev Ji had to speak the language of the people as they were geographically scattered all over the world. Hence the Gurbani is a mix of languages and not just Punjabi.

Please forgive me if I have offended any misinterpreted this post in any way.

Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa

Waheguru Ji Ke Fateh

The pure belong to God

Victory belongs to God

[Ambrosia]

Sat Sri Akal Khalsa Starr -

I know EXACTLY what you are talking about. You know me. Im the other convert from Quebec Canada. I speak English and French. And yeah - I've been learning punjabi for a year now.

Its going well, but resources are scarce for conversational skills and sentence making. (not just vocabulary and the alphabet). What i have done up to now, i found a website with lots of vocabulary, printed them, and taped them to q-cards. I have a good 3 inch thick pile of q-cards with 3 words each on them. This works well. I also paired up with someone who speaks punjabi and english, and i try to make conversation in punjabi. Its good practice.

Another thing, is while reading the banis at home, i read the gurmukhi and the english both. When you see a word or phrase repeating, often you can tell what that word means.

I appreciate learning the punjabi and the gurmukhi meanings because the phrases in the banis have a slightly different feel/colour/shade/texture than the english, and sometimes a slightly different meaning. Like... not having pronouns "He/She"; it is often written very directly "adjective is", like in Jaap Sahib for example.

As for going to Gurdwaras, I have been to one also a few times in Montreal. When I entered the door, I think they thought i was lost. But when i showed that i actually did intend on going to the Gurdwara, they motionned me to take off my shoes and socks, and wear a cloth on the head, wash my hands, etc. They then got the one person who spoke english there to talk to me, and he gave me a small booklet that outlines what sikhism is (in both english and french). Since my first visit, they dont talk to me, as they know I am aware of the procedures and have seen me there before.

As for service in Gurmukhi... i dont understand what they say - they talk so quickly! I do know the mool mantra though, and some key phrases, i can recognize. At first, it was very hard... because i felt like a total stranger... language is a huge barrier. People also tended to stare a bit, as I was the only white canadian there, but thats ok.

I bring my banis with me when i go there in the early afternoon, and i read them there, so i can read the english meanings. The best part is to know you are close to Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji, and that the Guru has lead you there - language barrier or not, man are we lucky! On some visits, i have been lucky to have people approach me and ask me if i like sikhi, how i got into it, am i learning punjabi... would i like some tea... :doh:

... lol i have to go, i may add more tomorrow...

Ambosia

[Khalsa_starr]

Has any one thought about creating English only (or mostly english) Gurdwara's?

It would be a good idea, since there are alot of youth and older ones who don't speak, or speak little punjabi. I myself would like to learn punjabi, but others might not want to do that.

Creating "custom" gurdwara's or programs in existing gurdwara's that feature engish only speakers would create a sense of belonging and welcome for many who would rather speak in their own language whether that would be English, German, Hindi, etc. The custom tailored gurdwara would entise would-be sikhs or ppl who are curious for info on sikhi. possibly many "hidding" sikhs like me before would also come out of the dark as well.

One small step is to ask gurdwara's to put some sort of english signage nearby to explain what the building is for. Just puting a khanda sign on the gates or door is not good enough.

I will create a group (msn possibly) for ppl interested in creating ideas and acting on them. It's time for change, not wait for later.

[naam_jap]

Usually, speakers in Gurudwara's talk in punjabi. The main reason being that people understand it.. But if you talk to them, to explain in english, they would be more then glad too.

Punjabi is not that hard to learn, once you know the meanings of basic words... just make sure you have a regular practise of it everyday. Once you know it, you will feel great to have spent the time and effort in learning it.

May Guru ji bless us all seekers

[Sony]

the most impotant thing to understand is the paath and kirtan going on.. speak to ur gurudwara sahib to have a screen and projector set up for sikhitothemax, most gurudwara sahibs that i've seen in toronto now have this.

i think this would help out a lot

[Ambrosia]

SSA -

Yes, i was thinking the same - Not everyone can learn a language easily also. It is a difficult task... worthwhile though...

but yes... A Gurdwara should be welcome to ALL - and that includes language. (But, you cant bend as far as having every single language in the world... just cant happen). BUt if there is a significant amount of english or french (language other than..) then it would be really nice to have english services.

On my way home... i realized, i couldnt even tell when was the beginning or end... la la la im lost as to what exactly is happenning at the Gurdwara. I feel very shy about Langar (free kitchen) because i can hardly communicate with them... its confusing and sometimes uncomfortable. I cant imagine anyone who is just curious, to walk in easily. It takes a lot of courage, as a stranger. But, yet again... that is also a test... nothing should stop us from going to see Guru Ji!

I think it would be a good idea to start a Study Group in English kind of thing. That would help. But i dont think we have to try and ask for an english service also... but gather together sikhs who speak english, those who cant understand punjabi very well... or anyone who wants to join... and you can study together and have discussions, and can build a sense of community, togetherness... that way.

Ambrosia

[Khalsa_starr]

Punjabi is not that hard to learn, once you know the meanings of basic words... just make sure you have a regular practise of it everyday. Once you know it, you will feel great to have spent the time and effort in learning it.

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my frind and I were talking on the phone, we both agreed that there is a slight problem with languages at the temple. I didn't mention my ideas to her, but we did touch up on the subject.

What needs to be soon, is some form of english sessions or services and some sort of english signage needs to be put up so more of our english speaking sikhs could understand whats going on, and also for the public to realise what this place is. I agree with you that punjabi should be learned (i'm doing that myself!). However, in the mean time while some of these sikhs (including me) try learn punjabi, there should be some sort of english (or other language) services available to them and the public.

I was shoked to learn that many of the younger generations and some of the even the older ppl don't understand punjabi! Not to mention, probably more can't even read gurmakhi.

Now, isnt our youth supposed to understanding and carrying on the word of sikhism? and isnt the future of our religion in our youth?

Well how will that be when most of our youth don't even understand or can't read what's is being tought? Please, somone tell me how that's it possible, i would like to know.

This might be a small factor in why some of our youth find it a little dry or boeing at the temple becasue they don't understand what's going on or what is being said. I even at times found myself being a little tired of listening to something i didn't understand.

Times are changing, and more ppl will want to be sikhs - ppl who don't neccesarily understand punjabi. We need to start bringing in a few changes if we want to change with the times. I don't honestly like it, however it is for the greater good and it will make going to temple a little bit more enjoyable for some.

I am already, going to talk with president of the sikh society here in Vernon.

-Khalsa Starr