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kam1825

Panj Piyareeaa instead of Panj Piyaray

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veerji.. i woudl ask you the same question "why?"

but maybe it's because you think more traditionaly... all the points singhs and singhnees have listed... don't they clarify anything... hmm... i would suggest you do reaserch on this topic.. it might help... :umm: ... and then you can share whatever conclusion you came up wid .. with the sangat i bet everyone's gonna appreciate that.. i don wanna leave it up to you.. but still if it's really getting to you.. then maybe you should search somethig that logically explains everythin.. ^_^

bhul chuk muaaf

waheguru ji ka khalsa

whaeguru ji ki afeth

Edited by simran_kaur

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Moderator's Comment : This topic was reopened to allow more members to post their views on this issue. Please do not attack anyone or post angry comments. We are here to discuss such issues and come to a conclusions as to which practises are worth keeping and which need to be changed.

:T: Someone is not listening

Yes we should follow Gurmaryada if u wanna label it that and not have female panj pyaree providing that we do the following

Have 5 pyaree of the same Caste.

Use the same Khanda and Batta.

Only have the Amrit ceremony at Anandpur sahib.

Carry out the ceremony exactly the same way as it was done by Guru Gobind singh ji.

By taking away the right of singhni's to be panj payares we are insulting our gurus who gave equal status to women if not higher than a man. Guru Amardass ji appointed 22 Manjis with women holding independent charge of four Manjis. Why did he not say that "Women can't be the leader because no woman before has done such a thing"?

If u can answer that question than please do so, because we need to know of a valid reason as to why women can't perform certain religious practises which men can.

Edited by Amardeep_singh

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^_^...

In Guru's court we are nto identified as a female soul or a male soul... ar we?.. i don't think so..

so should our appearense matter... ?? :umm: no.. then why are we thinking of it as a male and female issue... ??... we shouldn't .. because at the end it wont matter. As amrdeep virji said..

"By taking away the right of singhni's to be panj payares we are insulting our gurus who gave equal status to women if not higher than a man. "

Everyone's equal.... guru ji has already clarified that for us ^_^

I believe woman should be given the right to be the beloved five... ^_^

Waheguru ji ka khalsa

waheguru ji ki fateh

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Waheguru Jee Ka Khalsa Waheguru Jee Kee Fatah

Sadhsangat,

The katha that started this thread is now on Gurmatveechar.com it is the live katha in leicester recorded on 02/09/2003. please download and listen to the reasons yourselves then put your view on the thread. Baba Hari Singh will be touring the States, Canada and Europe next year. they said they will be happy to meet anybody to explain the Gurmat personally.

Kamalpreet Singh Pardeshi

Waheguru Jee Ka Khalsa Waheguru Jee Kee Fatah

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waheguru ji ke khalsa, waheguru ji ke fateh

Pyare jio, many of you seem very passionate about this topic, but I think most of you are missing the point.

I am not sure if any of you have done seva in the Panj, I did many years ago. I would not do it now. It is an extremely difficult seva to do. The level of your jeevan for this seva needs to be immense. To often it is taken too lightly. You are there representing the ShahenShah, Sahib Siri Guru Gobind Singh Ji. That is such a difficult thing. It is like having a kirpan continually on your head, ensuring you do nothing wrong, say nothing wrong, think nothing wrong.

It is not something for political correctness. Have bibian, or non-punjabis, or just men. This has nothing to do with it, and it is sillyness. It is purely about JEEVANS.

Before the Amrit Sanchaar, the sangat nominates Gursikhs who are considered worthy. They meet before The sahib Siri Guru Granth sahib Ji, and do bhagti together. The room is locked, and everything in there is a secret and kept in there. One by one each Gursikh is questioned about thier jeevan. They have to answer every question, and these are asked by the sangat. Only those who no-one can ever point a finger at, and have immaculate jeevans are selected by the Gursikhs in the room.

This just like in 1699 is as per Guru jis bhana. The highest jeevans, based on abyass, spiritual experiences, bhagti, seva, daswand, rehat, and so much more.

If at this point, all five are males, then this is fine. If a bibi is there, who jeevan is outstanding, then there is no reason not to give her the due seva, Similarly if a child reaches these level, then the same. The key thing i

s JEEVAN, just like in 1699, those 5 with the jeevans came forward. Anyone who understand spirituality will understand this, and how it is possible, and how the Kala Vartaas (spiritual energy flows).

So please lets get away from political correctness for its sake, and punjabism for its sake. It is the JEEVANS that matter. The seva of the Panj is so difficult and is not a battleground.

The worst thing is, if you were doing this seva, and a sikh comes to you offering his/her head, asking you questions on Gurmat, and you cannot answer them as a Punj. Or if someone comes for Amrit and takes Amrit but does not know the Gurmantar, or something about rehat, or jeevan. It is then those who are in the Punj who are Guru jis Dehandaars. They are not filling his role. So please This seva is very Pavittar and hard, and lets only worry about getting JEEVAN WALE GURSIKHS there, and hope one day we will become one aswell.

waheguru ji kekhalsa, waheguru jike fateh

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waheguru ji ke khalsa, waheguru ji ke fateh

Pyare jio, many of you seem very passionate about this topic, but I think most of you are missing the point.

I am not sure if any of you have done seva in the Panj, I did many years ago. I would not do it now. It is an extremely difficult seva to do. The level of your jeevan for this seva needs to be immense. To often it is taken too lightly. You are there representing the ShahenShah, Sahib Siri Guru Gobind Singh Ji. That is such a difficult thing. It is like having a kirpan continually on your head, ensuring you do nothing wrong, say nothing wrong, think nothing wrong.

It is not something for political correctness. Have bibian, or non-punjabis, or just men. This has nothing to do with it, and it is sillyness. It is purely about JEEVANS.

Before the Amrit Sanchaar, the sangat nominates Gursikhs who are considered worthy. They meet before The sahib Siri Guru Granth sahib Ji, and do bhagti together. The room is locked, and everything in there is a secret and kept in there. One by one each Gursikh is questioned about thier jeevan. They have to answer every question, and these are asked by the sangat. Only those who no-one can ever point a finger at, and have immaculate jeevans are selected by the Gursikhs in the room.

This just like in 1699 is as per Guru jis bhana. The highest jeevans, based on abyass, spiritual experiences, bhagti, seva, daswand, rehat, and so much more.

If at this point, all five are males, then this is fine. If a bibi is there, who jeevan is outstanding, then there is no reason not to give her the due seva, Similarly if a child reaches these level, then the same. The key thing i

s JEEVAN, just like in 1699, those 5 with the jeevans came forward. Anyone who understand spirituality will understand this, and how it is possible, and how the Kala Vartaas (spiritual energy flows).

So please lets get away from political correctness for its sake, and punjabism for its sake. It is the JEEVANS that matter. The seva of the Panj is so difficult and is not a battleground.

The worst thing is, if you were doing this seva, and a sikh comes to you offering his/her head, asking you questions on Gurmat, and you cannot answer them as a Punj. Or if someone comes for Amrit and takes Amrit but does not know the Gurmantar, or something about rehat, or jeevan. It is then those who are in the Punj who are Guru jis Dehandaars. They are not filling his role. So please This seva is very Pavittar and hard, and lets only worry about getting JEEVAN WALE GURSIKHS there, and hope one day we will become one aswell.

waheguru ji kekhalsa, waheguru jike fateh

Very old post, but here is the answer to bhai Sahib jeevan side. If it's only about jeevan then why didn't Sri Guru Gobind Singh Sahib ji put one single woman in Punj Pyare in his time? He had 9 years to put in one Gurmukh Bibi, but Guru Sahib never did. Neither is their a Hukam saying woman can be in Punj Pyare. By putting in a woman in Punj Pyare, the Sikhs of today are saying we know better than Sri Guru Gobind Singh Sahib ji. Which is a direct insult to Guru Sahib. Those long nine years where not one single Gurmukh Bibi was put in shows that jeevan is not the only factor to take in when it comes to who will do Punj Pyare di seva. The soul does not have a gender, but Sri Guru Gobind Singh Sahib ji surely gave us gender names, Singh and Kaur. If Satguru Sri Guru Gobind Singh Sahib ji differentiated between a man and woman, then his Sikhs should have no problem doing the same.

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waheguru ji ka khalsa waheguru ji ki fateh.

personally my belief which may be wrong is that

its not about who stoop up 5 men or 5 women.. its two things any panj pyare have to represent the original panj pyare sahibaan in body as well as jeevan.. just as a singh saab je with a disability an amputation, blindness etc cant do seva in panj because the panj pyare have to be complete in body in order to be worthy of representing the panj pyare in body.

remember we say its just about wats inside.. like a bibi can be more chardi kala and khalas then a singh and thats soo soo sooo true.. but maharaj does pay attention to the external for example bana and we all know bibia and singhs are different externally.

secondly its not about the original panj but if your saying its because bibia didnt get educated or whatever the thats an insult to bibia because there were many brahmgiani bibia at the time of mahraj who neever stood for seva in panj.. ike mata gujri ji mata sahib kaur mai bhag kaur ji and many others ji :)

sant jarnail singh too opposes it.

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Oh Waheguru Ji , look what you just did! lol, a 7 years old post just got dragged out of its grave hehe tongue.gif

biggrin.gifbiggrin.giflaugh.gif

I couldn't leave an open ended fallacy filled response unansweredbiggrin.gif

Bhai Sukhjeevan Singh, just gave a better response than minebiggrin.gifbiggrin.gif

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