chatanga

"Our voices" ? yet you have claimed that you are not a missionary. Tell the truth. Do support the missionaries. You have already dropped several hints on here that you do. Be honest. Be a Sikh. Taksal is not a jathabandi. It is a Samprdai.

He wasn't angry about anything. He knew that he could get away with it. There are many different levels of interpretation of Gurbani. When Taksal or the Samprdais do katha the thing is all the different levels complement each other and help shardalus develop their own understanding further.But these missionaries do katha to tear down the existing thoughts and throw their own perverse thinking in it. eg Guru Arjan Maharaj fainted when he was on the hot tavi. What kind of a Sikh would say that about their Guru? Shahedan da Sirtaj, fainting. Only the missionaries. And yet there are some who would try and claim the Taksal are worse. What a joke. It's becasue of this relentless rubbish coming from the missionaries that makes taksalis amongst others so angry. Im not a taksali but i am very angered by these missionaries and their agenda. They bring it in because they are tyring to make a name for themselves in Sikh history. Like the original Singh Sabha, who's name they misuse repeatedly. The role of the Taksalis as is the samprdais is to stop these people from reducing Gurmat to some kind of weak philosophy. Sometimes that includes using violence to do so. But then again thats not new to Sikhs. The Bandias, ram Raiye, Niranjanie etc. Siksh fought physically with all of them. Next some supporters of these missionaries will say why did the Sikhs take to arms in the 1980s. calling them violent and all sorts as well.

OK so Professor Sarbjit Singh Khalsa deliberately twisting the story of Guru Gobind Singh baal-leela and making Guru Sahib out to be some pervert isn't worse. Insulting your own Guru, that's not bad in your view. No I dont get the story. Where have you got it from? If only 1 Singh was necessary then Guru Sahib could have stopped at one head on Vaisakhi. There was reason for five. Im not talking about Shaheeds. Im talking about people who are sabat soorat as you said in your post. You never mentioned shaheeds, only sabat soorat people. Now you want to bring shaheeds into it. You say you a "humble little searcher who is starving for knowledge" but then say this : That doesn't rate as humble. The best are those who wanted to portray Guru Sahib's baal-leela as some kind of perversion to you? The best to you are those that lied in Guru's sangat and said that it is against SRM to read to sing bani of Sri Dasme Patshah's Granth Sahib in sangat? If they are the best to you stay with the best and if those who oppose the nindya of their Guru and outright lies concerning Sri Dasme Patshah's Granth Sahib are mules, then I'm happy to be associated with mules. Because jameer/conscience can tell you to do one thing, but the greater achievement for the panth tells you to do another. The Sikhs weren't beggars of the Moghals that they accepted a jagir and Nawabgi from Zakria Khan. They put their own thoughts/conscience to one side and saw the benefits of accepting the jagir and Nawabgi. Those Sikhs are not traitors to the Panth. Baba Harnam Singh did not go to the badals to get anything. It was them who came to him. They were the ones who needed him. Harnam Singh put aside his feelings/conscience for the betterment of the Panth. Look at what was achieved from it, 40 members in the SGPC, Gurdwara Shaheedan in Darbar Sahib, and restarting of Dasam Bani from Delhi gurdwaras. If if Harnam Singh is pictured with ladoos, I dont care as the greater good has been started for the Panth. If Harnam Singh refused Badals then what of these could have been acheived? But would that have been ok and the 10% of the Panth that thinks as we do, would still be a corner grumbling about how we can't change anything. You speak some really bad words about Baba Harnam Singh. Wise up.

Shall I copy and paste the Guru Gobind Singh baal-leela story here? What love and devotion went into this story that Professor Sarbjit Singh Khalsa told? You say that you wont back up those because you havent heard their recordings, but here you are clearly backing the missionaries. Why are you like Thakur Singh saying one thing here and another on another topic? But doesnt matter to you because you give the impression that even though they can be wrong they are still worthy of your support? Why as a Sikh would you be supporting someone you know is 100% right? When did Guru Sahib ever say that? Was KPS Gill not saabat soorat? Was Giani Zail Singh not saabat soorat? beanta butcher? So you are correct in saying that Shaheed Bhai Sukha Singh (who killed massa ranghar) had no jameer as he was himself killed whilst fighting for Zakria Khan ? Baba Harnam Singh put his jameer to one side for the sake of the Panth. Just like the Singhs of old did when there was a bigger issue to deal with. As pointed out in another post the killing of Bhai Bhupinder Singh (which i abhor FYI) was from a shot fired from someone behind him. If the vehicle had been stopped Bhai Bhupinder singh would have had his face towards the attacker. But how would he get shot in the back of his head then?

You dont need to listen to every single recording of his to know whether he is right or wrong. I used to listen to Professor Sarbjit Singh Khalsa a lot when he first appeared because of his rebuttals to kamli Kamlesh. But listening on and on, it wasn't long before he began to show his true colours. Like any other "pakhandi baba" Professor Sarbjit Singh Khalsa built up his fanbase first and then when they were hooked showed his true colours. You have heard every recording of his?

Sant Jarnail Singh explained why he said it in a further speech. He said that "when you want to get them (the govt) to do something you press a delicate spot ( ie the govt love for the hindus in panjab). Sant Ji was right.

It a trick used by the missionary fanboys on this forum. They've been at it for a long time. Admins should check who are liking posts and compare the ip addresses.

Giani Thakur Singh comes out with different stuff all the time. People have now realised this. But it's good to see that you realised that Thakur Singh was making a lot of stuff up. The missionaries are not ahead of Taksal going towards Maharaj. Who can be moving towards Maharaj when they say naam simran is not necessary? No-one in Mehta Chowk is a pakhandi. Where the people doing nindya of Dasam bani for years at Delhi gurdwaras some kind of role models for you? Baba Harnam Singh himself engineered the resurrection of Dasam granth katha at Delhi Gurdwaras and the sangat overwhelmingly voted in the same party to continue this parchar of Dasam granth. Thats pakhand to you? Because Baba Harnam Singh stil has a lot of respect amongst the Taksal and Dal Panth and the other samprdais. None of the samprdais are against him. They are all with him. Like it or not, he has achieved some crucial things for the panth that would not have been achieved had he kept his "jameer" as you put it. Think about some of the words you use.

That was for the shish's upma. Respect for Baba Budha only. Remember Guru Arjan Sahib didn't really need to send Mata Ganga to Baba Budha Sahib for Guru Hargobind Sahibs birth, but he did.

So did those Sikhs who joined Zakaria become Zakria Khans garvehi? Or Adina Begs garvehi?

OK, let's move onto an example. When Guru Gibind Singh was young he took his bow and arrow and shot the pot of water that a woman was carrying. She went to Guru Sahibs home to complain to Mata Gujri that Guru Sahib has ruined this pot by shooting an arrow into it.. Mata Ji said to Guru JI "why did you shoot the gaggar (pot)"? Guru Sahib said I did it for her welfare. Both ladies asked how. Guru Sahib said look inside the pot. Inside there was a poisonous snake that died from Guru Sahib's arrow. Have you heard how the missionaries tell this story? Professor Sarabjit Singh Khalsa said in his video that "this is a prachalt story that our brothers never tire of telling. But tell me what happens to womans clothes when they are wet through? The clothes cling to the body " (he never went further but the insinuation was there)". Then he asked how could Guru Gobind Singh have done this ? How could Guru Sahib have broken the womans pot which then soaked her clothes and put her body on display? Do you see how Professor Sarbajit Singh Khalsa has not added another level to this story but tried to strip it of all dignity altogether? So this is where differences in views should be combatted. Professor Sarabjit Singh Khalsa has tried to make this story out as something seedy. So if you agree with me, then you will also take a stand against nonsense like this from the missionaries and Professor Sarbjit Singh Khalsa.

Guru Nanak did not teach Baba Buddha anything. Guru Sahib infused all the 14 Vidya's into Baba Budha Ji with Guru Sahibs pavitar glance. Just as Guru Sahib never taught Bhai Mardana how to play rabab. Guru Sahib just told Bhai Mardana to play the instrument even though Bhai Mardana protested that he didnt know how to play it. Guru Sahib drishti alone can accomplish miracles.

Which panthic maryada has harnam Singh changed? Exactly. In our history the Sikhs have forged alliances with our enemies to defeat bigger enemies to acheive some goal. ie Nawabgi, alliances with Adina Beg and Zakria Khan/Massa ranghar, I cant remember off the top of my head. They were done with the intent to achive something that otherwise would have been difficult to achieve. The difference would be that Sant jarnail Singh would not have said that the previous understandings were wrong. Sant Ji would have given a different interpretation from a spiritual angle but would not have vilified any angles the other Sants approached it from. Whereas what we get from certain places today is nothing but nindia of established practices.

I meant your point was valid. Naam Simran could not have prevented 84 or the Sahibzadas shaheedi, you are correct. But the Naam Simran is the power behind the sword (or guns) that the Sikhs weilded in 84. Naam Simran is what built those 150 people upto taking on a massive army in a war they knew they wouldnt/couldn't win. Those 150 people didnt go and sit in a bhora either to do naam simran. But coming back to the point of this topic, The missionairies say that naam simran is a waste of time. They forget that the first 5 gurus were al about spiriutality and the sword was taken up to defend that spiriituality. If the missionaries beleive that naam simran isnt necessary but the sword (or activism) is only required why was Panthpreet Singh Khalsa the first (or second) to run from the morcha? Why not fire back at, or attack the police who were attacking them? The ones who sat and meditated (bhoras or otherwise) stood firm against oppression when it mattered. The ones who say its not necessary and we shouldn't "cover our ears or eyes" ran. Wheres the logic in that? Yes I agree. But when someone speaks lies or misinformaiton it is also our duty to fight that. I'll give you another example that has come to mind. Professor Saranjit Singh Khalsa said in his video that he met some Sikhs who told him "that at such and such a place their Baba made all the women go out of the sangat because Baba wanted to do katha of bani". I asked his fanclub what dera is that and what is babas name. They couldnt answer the question because they knew as well as I did, that there was no baba and no dera. Professor Sarabjit Singh Khalsa was making it up. So not only do we have a duty to speak the truth but also a duty to combat lies. A recent video has surfaced where Bhai Panthpreet Singh Khalsa has denied the Guru HarKrishan and Chhajju Jhiwar story as we know it today. His reason for his version is that "logically" it is not possible for a dumb person to speak, and neither could Guru Sahib get a dumb person to speak by placing a stick on his head. And yet these people are way ahead of Taksal? I'd rather be behind I think.

That is exactly the problem. Who ruled jyot and dhoof are hindu or hindu exclusive rituals? If Hindus do it does that mean as Sikhs we cannot do it? What if we do it for a different reason? You're sharing a video that missionaries brought out to try and claim that Baba Harnam Singh is dismissing Dasam Granth as just a translation? Wouldn't you have known this yourself as parts of Dasam Granth which have been translated are labelled as such in the writing. It's pretty obvious isn't it? What logic was there when Guru Nanak asked Bhai Lehna to climb the tree and pluck sweets from the branches? Don't make the mistake of confining Sikhi to logic. The are people called naturalists who fully beleive that humans should not be forced to wear clothes. In the West that is. Their reasons are logical to them, but does that make being naked wrong from a logical point of view? Even in this day and time, there are still women in thbis world who no not keep their upper body covered. To them it's logical. The reason they don't openly deny it, is because Sikh Rehat marayda has 3 banis from Dasam granth as part of Nitnem. The gurmat gian group profess to only follow Sri Akal Takht Sahib, but this is only when it suits them. Professor Sarbjit Singh Khalsa openly acknowledges Professor Inderjeet Singh Ghagga's views on Dasam Granth, indeed Sarbjit Singh even made a video of him hitting Jaap Sahib with a stick. Then he aslo made a video of his group doing Jaap Sahib paath because people started to oppose him. Ok. lets take one example, a quite debated example. "Dev Shiva bar mohe ihe". No Sikh beleived that Guru Sahib was praising "Lord Shiva" of the Hindus when he wrote this. But the missionaries keep claiming that this is the reason why we should not follow Dasam Granth. Because to them there can only be ONE interpretation of the word "Shiva". But in Guru Granth Sahib there are countless references to "Hari,Ram" etc but if there can only be one translation of "Shiva " in Dasam Granth why not the same for Guru Granth Sahib? This is why they are insulted. They are using devious tactics to get uneducated Sikhs to beleive that Dasam Granth is a hindu conspiracy. Even Prof Sarbjit Singh Dhunda told lies about Dasam Granth and this shabad in sangat. He said that according to Sri Akal Takht maryada (SRM) only the banis of SGGS, BHai Gurdas and Bhai Nandlal are to be recited from gurdwara stage. People who have never read the SRM beleive him. But it doesnt actually say that. It says that the writings of the Guru's can be recited from gurdwara stages, which means that Dasam Bani can also be recited. But people who don't know this end up thinking that there is some hindu conspiracy. Taksalis have been at the forefront of the panth for about 40 odd years now. They recogise that there is a sinister movement coming from the missionary college which is turning Sikhs from having "sharda" and "bharosa" in Gurmat, to basing their faith on science and logic. Sikhi is way above science and logic.

This is where Sikhs get attached to people's personalities rather than the Guru. It is a very valid point. telling the truth is never nindya but the Professors at Gurmat Gyan College have already made their feelings clear on singing Guru Sahib's Bani and Naam Simran. They ask "if Naam Simran could acheive anything, then why did Darbar Sahib get attacked in 1984?" "What use was Naam Simran then?" This video that someone posted: I was listening to it and it goes along the usual lines. Sikhs not using their own intellect enough, thehn moving onto "pakhandi babbe". Then a story about how some baba did this and said that. I will share something with everyone here that I picked up from facebook. Some guy had made a post about Dhunda doing katha where he told this story: "I was going to the entrance of DarbarSahib and there was a dog sitting in the place where people walk through water to clean their feet ( I personally cannot remember what it is called). The dog walked off as some people approached. After the dog had gone a man came up and as he passed through the water, he scooped a little drop to put in his mouth. So I waited at the entrance for this man to come out, (after doing matha at Sri HariMandir Sahib) and then I told him that there was a dog sitting in the water just before you came and you drank from that same water. The man then started to put his fingers in his thraot to induce vomit. This sounds so made up, and other people commented on this story could not be possible. Then on facebook to back this story up, a photo appears, photoshopped with a dof in the water thing. The dog is bigger than the people in the photo and its so appaprent that its fake. These kinds of stories inc how it is manmat to do matha or pay respect to Nishan Sahib etc all come from the Gurmat Gian Missionary College (which is where the name missionary/ies comes from). A large part of their modus operandi is to start with normal issues but then also to gradually bring in their true agenda. Then there is also the deliberate mistelling of sakhis to confuse people and turn them away from Sikh history.

That looks a lot like a missionary website. The articles there are not in any great depth but simple translations of some lines of gurbani to try and back up what the writer thinks. I have read the article of " is gurbani counting beads" which is a missionary article on malas/rosary. The writer has tried to used some lines which contain the words "mala" to portray that using malas is anti-gurmat. I wold advise members here not to fall prey to this type of missionary nonsense. JotSingh, I would also recommend www.gurmatveechar.com if you really wish to understand Gurmat in a greater depth.

So are yours. They make no sense to me either. They smack of feminism and nothing else. A very dangerous trait. Leadership roles? God you sound so much like satkiran/harkiran. Leadersship roles, seeing everyone with one eye, long repetitive posts... Humans are made to err, but are the Gurus? Couldn't the Gurus be capable of raising women from their status' in their religions to something more in Sikhi? Bibi BHani did so much sewa of Guru Amar Das ji, but Guru Sahib gave gurgaddi to her husband. Was that unfair? Was Guru Sahib damaging her or other Sikh womens confidence by not considering Bibi Bhani ? But the reality changed with the Gurus an Sikhi did it not? Did Guru Sahib raise women from their status' in their previous religions? Here is another point where you sound like satkiran/harkiran. She tried to claim this and it is a most untrue statement. Sikh girls are ot leaving Sikhi because of any perceived thought of discrimination over not being allowed to serve in Panj Pyare. No Sikh girl has ever left Sikhi because of this. Thankyou! First you were saying we need to look on all with one eye of equality and discard the human gender. Now you are saying the human gender is imnportant. You need male and female physical bodies to produce offspring. That is the law of nature. In Sikhi the pyares have to be male, with no missing limbs or digits. Even if the tip of one finger is missing that disallows a male. You do not need to be physically fit to sit in bir asan. It is very posible to hold that position for the duration of amrit sinchar (about 45 mins). Anybody with a missing finger or toe or ear can hold bir asan. But are they allowed to participate in Panj Sewa? No, they are not. Eyes? Vision? People can see without eyes. People with eyes are blind. That is quite a ridiculous assertion. Eyes are windows to the soul? Not in Gurmat. Then also eunuchs can participate because there is no "explicit" recorded message from the Gurus. To add to this then Sikhs can say "we don't need to take amrit/wear the 5 K's because there is no explicit recorded message from the Gurus either." What about if someone says to you "there is no recorded message from our Guru's to have Singh/Kaur in your names?"

That's not your decision to make. Forced? So Guru Gobind Singh Ji was wrong to take back the Sikh who had been forced to convert to islam?

So many times the same things get discussed. yet the arguments are the same over and over. It would have been god if yhou had done a search on this topic and read a little more. However since the debate is raging here i would like to add a few things directly addressed to you brother. You're right. It is in the SRM, but the question remains why there has not been one amrit sinchar at Sri Akal Takht Sahib since the SRM was forced on the Panth in 1945 which has included women. Ask yourself why. Forgiveness is not necessary brother as we are all learners. But I want to ask you why you have limited the "soul" only to humans and not applied it to each and every living thing from plant life to animal life to human life. These are the churasi lakh joon that all souls pass through to obtain the "rattan" of human chola. What if someone said tomorrow we should give amrit to horses because they have served Sikhs very well? And then I want to ask you why eunuchs or bi-gender or people of no gender should be excluded? They have the same soul that you and I have. Further to this I want to ask you if the soul literally is Waheguru then why are marriages between man and woman the only ones allowed in Gurmat? Why cant two men marry each other? They both have the same soul don't they? Are you married? If not will you be looking for a soul or a woman? IN those times, high and low castes never sat or ate together yet Guru Baba Nanak spent many years with Bhai Mardana and ate at the house of Bhai Lalo. Why would a revolutionary Like Guru Sahib be afraid of nominating at least one woman as Guru? The message of equality cannot come from those in lower position but the people of higher position still move beyond words to prove a point. eg a slave master claiming slavery is wrong but yet holding those slaves as slaves means what exactly? A slave master would free his slaves as an example. And that is precisley what this is all about. The physical bodies. Homosexuals, have the same body parts as other humans but they are not allowed to be part of panj pyare. Brother, there are many things in Sikhi that are not written by the Guru's explicitly. But the tradition should go a long way, an extremely long in telling us what the Guru's instructions were. Guru Sahib gave the Panth to make political and social (miri) based decisions. Not religious ones, where the Panth can decide to change the protocols of Sikhi. Imagine 20 or 30 years down the line, the majority of the Sikh Panth decided that the 5 ks are not necessary, could they decide to discard them? In the same way the Sikhs cannot change one word of gurbani or the protocols of Sikhi that started from our Gurus. So which spirit is in Guru Granth Sahib then, if it isn't Guru Gobind Singh Ji? Some jathas in order to subvert the status of Sikhi may make these kinds of changes but they wil never earn the blessings of Guru Sahib. Be careful of what you say bro. Or should I say harkiran? You are bringing up the same arguments she did, and indeed I wonder if it's you again? How does someone repeat EXACTLY the same arguments over and over? If you say that this is an injustice as I have bolded, then you are calling the Guru unjust. If Guru Sahib wanted he had the power to have any number of women attend and stand up when calling for a head. Guru Sahib is sarav-shakti-maan. Guru Sahib is aseem-shakti. Guru Sahib had the power to do anything, and even could have made a woman Guru, or included women in the Panj Pyare. Guru Sahib gave his life for another religion yet was still unjust? Are you saying that Guru Sahib was too scared to conform social conventions of their times? I am sorry that you think so low of your Guru.

was discussing this idea with someone and it reminded me of this topic i had made here almost 10 years ago. Glad to see that someone else had the same idea and turned it into something special.

Is this hukumnama or a translation of it available to read online anywhere? If not a book where it is written? Thanks Yes please. Thanks. I heard it a long time ago (poss 10 years) but would rather not have to trawl through all my tapes to find it. I never knew that Baaj Singh survived Delhi. Had always thought he was shaheed. If you consider the sakhi of the Sikh boy who was shaheed (even though his mother protested that he wasn't a Sikh) it seems a little weird that Baaj Singh would prefer to survival rather than shaheedi with his comrades. Where are you reading/hearing that 4 of the 5 Pyaras remained with Baba Ji? From what I have been told. at Gurdas Nangal, there was a difference of opinion over tactics. The same scenario at Anandpur Sahib when some Sikhs were of the opinion to leave the Qilla and fight the enemy/escape. Baba Binod Singh Ji was of the opinion to face the enemy and fight whereas Baba Banda Singh wanted to hold out against their seige. Those that wanted to try and escape the seige/fight the turks left with Baba Binod Singh but they were not held back by Baba Banda Bahadur either. He gave all the Sikhs there the choice to remain or chance their luck. Bhai Rattan Singh Bhangu is not the only writer to have written this. BHai Kesar Singh Chibber has written the same in "Bansawalinama". It would be great if someone could. I would like to read them as well. Thanks. If anyone wishes to listen to ongoing katha of Panth Parkash here is the link: http://www.gurmatveechar.com/audios/Katha/02_Present_Day_Katha/Nihang_Giani_Sher_Singh_(Ambala_wale)/Pracheen_Panth_Parkash_Katha/Nihang.Giani.Sher.Singh.(Ambala.wale)--Pracheen.Panth.Parkash.Katha.-.Part.01.-.2014-10-01.-.Sri.Guru.Panth.Prakash.01.mp3

Dhunda when there began to be opposition to his teachings in Panjab, released a video of the missionary college doing Jaap Sahib paath, which turned the diehard miss naris against him. They were dissing him left right and centre. Since Ranjit Singh came on the scene they have clamoured around him as he is hugely popular in Panjab. Ranjits singhs diwans are not about Sikh any more, but to diss Harnam Singh and the Taksal.

That is not a severe beating. it is only a few thappar/punches. No-one who had a good beating like this guy deserved would be able to sit up for his picture like that. he would have been lying on a manja like poohla was. A few weeks ago, there was the incident of some youth being hacked to death in Panjab for allegedly selling drugs(remember allegedly). There was also a case where some muslamaniacs battered some guy in Peshawar University for not being radical enough. Students in a university!!! Yet in a Gurdwara where Sikhs are armed to the teeth, and where there are no dearth of weapons, no-one thought to really hurt this cretin. I mean really hurt him.

Good to see that the recent 3 day program in Kenya, had lots of Dasam bani sung and quoted. Good to see that this "intellectual" lord singh did not have the effect he desired on the Sikh Council of Africa.