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chatanga

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Everything posted by chatanga

  1. chatanga
    We've been over this. kashmir was never "yours". By law of agreement it still isn't. You are talking about land. I am talking bout a very special piece of land. Our religious places are no ordinary places. They have the same place in our hearts like Mecca for. see how aggrieved the Muslims are about the mosque in Jerusalem? Its exactly the same for Sikhs. Just because you were majority in those areas didnt give you the right to claim it all. Like I said Muslims were about 55% but yet they were given 61% of the land mass. Why? You talk about 8 tehsils? Thats nothing. By right Sikhs/HIndus are looking at 20 Tehsils that should have come to Indian Panjab. If your country had looked after our religiously historic shrines like they promised to, maybe we wouldnt have that bitterness in our hearts and minds, but the waqf board instead have trried to sell off gurdwara lands and such.
  2. chatanga
    This "anonsengh" guest seems to be on of those sunny doad type guys. I think the Admins tneed to look at the things he is writing.
  3. chatanga
    It is not a mistake. It's something different. it makes no difference whatsoever to the Bir and fully conforms with Sikh thought. Why are you telling more and more lies on this forum? Bhai Mani Singh never had the bir, or any access to it. The history of Dasam Granth is hazy to you? The history of Sikhi is hazy as well. So you going to reject it all?
  4. chatanga
    Traditionally the parkash of Sri Dasme Patshah's Granth was done at the Takhts and chhounis/samprdai deras. No other Gurdwara that I know of had parkash of Sri Dasme Patshah's Granth that I have heard of so far ie Sri Nankana Sahib. I don't think that history is available. You want evidence that Sri Dasme Patshah's Granth was present? Read on... Where is this Vahi? The last person that I know of who claimed to see this Vahi was Giani Gian Singh and that was over 120 years. Where has it gone? Did one actually exist? The first concrete mention of Guru Gobind Singh giving gurgaddi to Aad Granth was written by Bhai Koer Singh in Gurbilas in 1751. Even those eye-witness writers make no mention of Guru Sahib giving gurgaddi to Aad Granth. ie Kavi Senapti , Dhadi Nath Mal. Ok, let's see it. Ok so we have the FIRST written evidence of the parkash of both granth in 1800s. Does that mean that the practice was only started 1 or 5 days before? That is a very poor argument to state that parkash only started from the time somone witnessed it and wrote it down. For this statement alone, you should be banned from this forum. Nothing personal, but if you are posting lies to confuse other Sikhs, then you have no place on a Sikh forum. Written in history? Where has the vidhi for Amrit Sinchar been written in history? What are the 5 k's according to what has been written in history? There are SO MANY things about Sihi that have not been written in history, but passed down through seena-baseena tradtions. You want to only beleive what is written down in history? That is a very slippery slope. Makes no difference how these words are written. The meaning is absolutley clear. There is no controversy. Both are equally valid. It's like any Sikh saying Satguru Granth Sahib or Sri Guru Granth Sahib. If you are creating posts like this, to me, it is very apparent where your thoughts are on this subject. It was only in the 1940s when the SGPC standardized SGGS (from having many birs with lots of differences in them) to the one that is being printed for almost 70 years now. So what? Does that mean the SGGS should be given less respect? Akali Ji died in 1823, the harmonium came to Panjab in around 1880s.
  5. chatanga
    So basically it's all rumours? You want to spread and perpetuate rumours on a Sikh forum?
  6. chatanga
    Bro, that is TOTALLY Pakistani narrative. Pakistan always denies having any influence in Kashmir or Afghanistan, but we all know what the reality is. There is a sizeable percentage of Kashmiris in Panjab. Its such a shame that these people had a vote to decide the reality of Panjab we see today. BTW didnt know they were Kashmiri. Had been told they claimed to be Arains. Yes true that Bengalis only had one script but that is because they were all centred on a very strong Bengali identity. Even during the times of the earlier Moghals Bengal was always acting on semi-independent lines. All 3 religions in Panjab had their own script but even that is not a mountain that couldn't be climbed. Partition was done on primary basis of Districts and secondary of Tehsils. Will try and pull up some figures on Gurdaspur. I'm talking about British Panjab. The muslims were approx 55% (it ranges from 52% to 57% depending on who you ask) but 61% of the land was given to be in Pakistan. You know what really aggrieves me. I mean REALLY aggrieves me to the point where I find it hard to even express my anger, is that there were at least 6 border villages where our religiously historic Gurdwaras are, inc Gurdwara Darbar Sahib. That place is so special to Sikhs, yet these border villages went to Pakistan even though they could have easily been awarded to India, on the basis that 55% of the population could not claim 61 % of the land. And look at those Gurdwaras now. Our precious heritage has turned to dust and rubble in this Pakistan. Only Gurdwara Darbar Sahib is functioning now, and that only after it was rescued otherwise it's domes had also fallen in. The other Gurdwaras have turned to dust and ruin. Wil dig some out. Yes they are, and you are as well.
  7. chatanga
    Thanks for putting up a concise post. Long paragraphs/esssays are not really my thing on forums. It is can be applied to economics. It is an approach style. Do you get involved or not? do you have a laissez-faire approach to it? As I've said many times, you seem to have this attitude towards the 2nd biggest body of Gurdwaras and Management in the Panth. It doesnt bother you what sarna and co have done for the last decade or so in Delhi gurdwaras. Why ask when I can read your words? It's not so much what you write but what you don't write. Baba Harnam Singh cannot (IMO) do those things by himself or even with the Taksal. Those are objectives which can only be carried out with the greater majority of the Sikhs backing it. But the majority of Sikhs back badal and co. Sant jarnail Singh couldnt put an end to point no 3, why do you think someone like Harnam Singh who is nowhere near the level of Sant Jarnail Singh in terms of leadership and charisma, could achieve those? Both at some time in their live had/have a close working relationship with Akali Dal. Now coming to point no 4, who is polarizing Sikh thought? its the missionaries. They are tearing down each and every thing in Sikhi. look at what steps darshan rogi has taken, and this guy used to speak at delhi gurdwaras a lot. So you can't throw this mud at harnam Singh, as he has done his very best to combat this. He and the taksal are doing their utmost to keep Sikh trhought from polarizing.
  8. chatanga
    You need to take lessons from the Bengalis. They refused to give up their mother tongue for some hybrid manufactured language. they have my respect for that more than the Muslims who live in Panjab. I don't know about the CM of Panjab. I remember during a Kabaddi match in indian Panjab, the CM Shahbaz Sharif was invited to say a few words. He couldnt even put 2 Panjabi words together before he started talking in Urdu. Its a shame no-one turned the mic off so we had to listen to that.
  9. chatanga
    Of course it was only natural that the ML wanted Kashmir to be part of Pakistan because of its demographics. The difference was that the popluation counted for nothing. It was a princely state which that only the King had the right to make the decision. Plus the "K" of Kashmir was to be in the name of Pakistan. No K, would jhave meant the country could have ended up being called Paistan. If only Kashmiris felt same as well. If you have read extensivley on this you will have seen that Nehru has resigned himslef to losing Kashmir to Pakistan. The activiites of the Pak govt proivided him with a lifeline to take Kashmir. Gurdaspur had a muslim majority of 0.1%. The majority of the Muslims of Gurdaspur lived in the one of the tehsils that was awarded to Pakistan. Their numbers in Zaffarwal tehsil was a lot and the population in this tehsil was much greater than the others. That is why Gurdaspur had an extremely slight numerical advantage but when the situation was moved from a district level to e Tehsil, this decision was right. Muslims in Panjab were 55% of the population yet were rewarded 61 of the land mass. That in itself was extremely unfair. I have many books on Pakistan, and Kashmir, (many unread yet as I have that many), but if you think the tribaks invaded because they wanted to avenge muslim deaths in Jammu, you have been mislead. The initial rebellion in Poonch was against the King of Kashmir, because he was afraid of the Poonch regiments wanting to join Pakistan so he tried to have them disarmed. They rebelled and were holding their ground extremely well against the Kings other troops. It was decided to send in tribals to help them after the Dogra troops starting tgetting the upper hand. These tribals caused havoc wherever they went and after the hindu and sikhs were gone, they turned on the native population that was left. India had the chance to destory these tribals but were scared off of going to close to Pakistans border as they didnt want to be seen as threatening Pakistan in the world arena. It was not a hindu vs muslims thing. The King himself was leaning towards Pakistan until the invasion happened. The King wanted Kahsmir to remain independent but would have chosen Pakistan over India as the vast majority of Kashmirs trade was through Panjab (Sialkot/Gujrat) and it made economical sense to be in Pakistan than india. And thats really quite ironic isnt it? The ML starting fighting for something that would have come to them any way, and the Kashmiris wanting an independent state today have their state ruled by two other states. Kashmir, was not liberated by locals. they didnt have a pot to piss in. It was Pak army hardware, partialy financed by Hyderabad (indian) state, that gave weapons, food and soldiers to lead the tribals. I dontknow about Baltistan. Gilgit on the other hand was secured by a british army officer with Pakistan troops. I dont know why you want to peddle Pakistani state narratives here.
  10. chatanga
    Its also a attitude of not getting involved. It is exactly the word I wanted. Letting others do what they want without bothering about any consequences. You seem more bothered by the fact that Harnam Singh has done something about sarna and co, and also re-started parchar of Dasam Bani in dlehi gurdwaras. Not once have you appreciated this by Baba Harnam Singh. Instead you try and present it as a minor issue.
  11. chatanga
    The Kashmiri King wished to remain independent but Jinah wanted it to be part of Pakistan. The newly formed pak govt sponsored tribal afghans to invade and secure Kahsmir for Pakistan. This invasion made the King, hari Singh sign Kashmir over to india in order to get security from pakistan. If the tribals hadnt invaded Kashmir would have remained independent and a muslim majority country. In hindsight the pakistan move was one of grave folly. But unfortunately they haven't learnt the lesson. So many people blame Master Tara Singh whereas it was baldev Singh who sealed the fate of the Sikhs. The reality of the time was that Master Tara Singhs hand were tied. The Sikh community was at a disadvantage in more or less every sphere. There were no friends, only enemies, and most the energies of the Sikhs were spent fighting the creation of Pakistan. There was no plan B.
  12. chatanga
    What was stolen in Darbar Sahib? Baba Harnam Singh is not Guru Sahib, and no-one compares him with Guru Sahib. The comparison I made was between Baba Harnam Sngh and the Dal Panth when they accepted a jagir and nawabgi from the Moghal rulers. It was done with a purpose in mind to acheive a goal that otherwise would not have been possible.
  13. chatanga
    Years went on? How many years was there, and what happened to make Baba Harnam Singh more favourable?
  14. chatanga
    Lets bring another french word. Laissezfare . You would prefer this? You come across as viewing the ejection and rejection of the sarna group - read darshan rogi, dhunda and co from Dlehi gurdwara management and parchar as not being anything important, whereas I see it as vitally important for the Panth. How could this have been acheived unless the backing of badal dal was there? Fair enough but someone who is ill would want to have their symtoms treated first. This is the short-term goal. Then the eradication of the illness would follow. I'm sure that any person who feels ill will feel this. The root problem was festering and remained unaddressed for about 10 years unless Baba Harnam Singh addressed it. Yes thats right, he addressed it. Many people (inc myself) were whinging about what sarna was doing in delhi gurdwaras but could do nothing about it. If it doesnt bring any unity in the Panth, it will serve equally not to let the panth fracture further. Did Harnam Singh do this to achieve unity in the Panth? I dont think so. Did he do it to end the missionary nonsense in dlehi gurdwaras? yes. So there's the answer. Sant Jarnail Singh couldn't achieve unity in the panth, so it's really unfair that you would place this lofty goal on Harnam Singh's head. Your posts are too long to read. I havent been reading them, just taking the opening the paragraph. You asked what has Harnam Singh achieved with badal. To some the results are very apparent. To some they aren't.
  15. chatanga
    So you have no answer to your lie then. Better not to tell a lie in the first place.
  16. chatanga
    @Only five No answer?
  17. chatanga
    The difference is that Sarna would support the missioanry agenda and Badal would give Harnam Singh full liberty to pursue the Sikh agenda. This issue of having Dasam bani parchar in Dlehi gurdwaras seems like a very minor issue to you.I suspect with the blase way you write it you are quite angry at the re-emergence of Dasam bani parchar in Delhi gurdwaras. Thats up to you. For me Harnam Singh has achieved something here that I and most Sikhs I know would never have thought would happen. darshan rogi and his missionary bum-chums had been in control for years and casued so much mischief. Thats not an issue to you. I'm glad that Baba Harnam Singh has done something about it. Exactly. Baba Harnam Singh and the taksal have been given autonomy to preach proper gurmat throughout Delhi Gurdwaras. This will help the Panth grow and its interests will be defended. You want to take pahul from 3 banis ? go ahead. But I would also read Sikh history a little more as well if I were you. the Sikhs who took the Nawabgi and jagir had it rescinded after 4 years when the Moghals decided they were strong enough to start facing the Sikhs in battle. Then the Sikhs were left without a jagir and a defunct title. Does that mean they were foolish to accept the Moghals offer and got used in the process?
  18. chatanga
    Dr Sohan Singh gave up a very cushy job to lead the movement. He sacrificed a very good life for the movement. I would bnever call him a rat. Dr Sohan Singhs Panthic Comiittee had an image of being more brutal and less compromising than the others. Dr Sohan Singh was also the one who wanted to contest the electiosn but it was Bittu who threatened to kill him over it After that Dr Sohan Singh backed down. His Panthic Committee, although personally i would say he was against it, killed some 30 odd Sikh candidates. All of them very good men inc Baldev Singh Lang, a good friend of my relative. They had already killed Harminder Singh Sandhu which in me eyes is unforgivable. It was personal, nothing else. Sorry to both I missed the questions. Can yo re-post them? I wouldn't call these people as agents. they were genuine Khalistan ideologues. ISYF was the top org in its time.
  19. chatanga
    The Hindus of Panjab were more stronger in the east. There they forced all the muslims out from areas like gurgaon and such. They certainly did not avoid any violence there. In central Panjab the Sikhs were mainly holding their own. In western Panjab, both Hindus and Sikhs were getting decimated. Speak for yourself. The only problem I have with the killing of Muslims on our side is that we didn't kill enough and made the grave mistake of letting any muslims live in East Panjab as Muslims. The minority of Sikhs that stayed in Panjab had to convert to Islam. Yet in East Panjab, our lot were still reluctant to let the Muslims go, adn then if they stayed , let them stay as Muslims. Today there are more Muslims in Jalandhar district than Sikhs in the whole of Pakistan and Afghanistan combined. Some 95% of the Muslims voted for Muslim League and Pakistan. They were ultimately responsible for partition. Even bhiaris or gujarati muslims, all those who voted for muslim league were responsible for pakistan. Amritsar from the 1941 consensus was 47% muslim. What? If it wasn't for Master Tara Singh and Gyani Kartar Singh, the Sikhs would have taken a hiding ALL over Panjab. Master and Gyani both knew that there would be a huge violent outbreak at partition and prepared for it. Using Master Ji's hindu birth against him is a low act. read about his life and you will see.
  20. chatanga
    Baba Ram Singh was credited with the first non co-operation movement against the British. I dont think it could be described a quit india movement. That slogan came in the 1920s-30s.
  21. chatanga
    Why would badal give Ram Singh recognition as head of the taksal if he had planted Harnam Singh as the head?
  22. chatanga
    "Singh?" No Sikh of the Guru calls darshan rogi by that name. You pretend that you don't support him, when its very apparent that you do. If you knew a little more about bullets hitting bodies then you would know that that the momentum of the bullet would take the object with it, instead of travelling towards the shooter. If you knew even more about shootings you would know that not all shots have exit wounds, and not all exit wounds are bigger than the entry wounds. Nice try though. However as the photo that we have seen only shows one wound, it is not been said whether this is the entrance or exit. And with shotguns the entry can easily be as big as the exit, if not bigger as the bullet fragments as its being shot (expereince in watching people being killed by shotguns.) Do you want a link to some Jkaur? (to add to your experience?)
  23. chatanga
    And everyone can be better than "Professor Sarnjit Singh "Khalsa/dhapali" who tried to make his Guru out to be some kind of pervert.
  24. chatanga
    Fair enough this photo makes him gimli. But thats a small price to pay if some turaiya avastha Sikhs want to call him gimli, for me. This is one of those results. This would not have been possible without "gimli", but i would rather have "gimli" and other taksalis doing katha than dhunda and jachak.
  25. chatanga
    5. Helping get rid of Delhi's Malechh committee of Sarna and co, and restarting katha there including katha of Sri Dasme Granth Sahib. The above accomplishments are a great acheivement if you were to consider what the situation would be like had this not been done. All these things were in place when Sant Jarnail Singh and Baba Thakur Singh were alive. While more Sikhs were religious definitely it is wrong to put these regressions at Baba Harnam Singh personal responsibility. The original plan was to support Badal which meant that Badal had to commit 40 SGPC seats to Sant Samaj. These 40 Sant Samaj nominees won their seats but the congress party took the elections to court where there was a stay of power so the previous SGPC continued as was. The case took 6 years to reach a verdict. If these Sikhs had been able to take their place in SGPC there would most likely have been a great change. I agree with you here. Baba Harnam Singh could have and should have done more to move badals hand against the ravan sena. However the problem here was that Badal did not want to pursue these cases himself as it would have made more people aware of the crimes of the ravan sena. With Kaunke's case, I beleive it was given to the CBI of india to investigate. Not sure, but Harnam Singh should definitely have kept this issue alive. It is unfair to blame Harnam Singh for these. He had a plan to chnage the SGPC but it was foiled. PLus this was always there when Sant jarnail Singh was there, but no-one blamed him for corruption even though at times he was close to Akali Dal leadership because of the morcha. The Sant Samaj originally came together for the SGPC elections which unfotunately they were unable to see through to the end. After this various leaders as such who really had no desire to involve themsleves in any politics left. Those warm relations were there for a purpose. As i have said many times here, in the life and death struggles of the Dal Panth, even they made political/military alliances with the moghals. I wouldn't criticize those Sikhs because they beleived they were acting in the interests of the Panth by siding with an enemy that had committed pogroms against them many times and killed thousands and thousands of Sikhs.
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