CharhdiKala

15 hours ago, BhForce said:

I see. I think the exceedingly small number of Jatt, Ramgarhia, Khatri or other such Buddhists must be the overly educated rich Delhi/Mumbai dwelling-type who have never had the fortune of being exposed to the real Sikhi, and instead have the misimpression that Sikhi  is simply about swinging swords around or some such and there is no spirituality in it.

They are exposed to a whiff of spirituality from some Buddhist that they meet in the big city, and they think, "I've found it. Real spirituality. Never would have experienced this in the small-time provincial atmosphere of Punjab. I'm becoming a Buddhist."

Whereas if we had gotten off our butts and preached the real meaning of our faith, we wouldn't have this problem.

You're right in someways. One of the biggest things in Sikhi is meditation and chanting the Waheguru mantra but I don't think even the majority of Sikhs know this. Sikhi is just seen as some 'warrior' religion that provides langar by a lot of people.

He said something dumb in his early 20s? I think most people do and yes he is Charles' son, just look at the resemblence between a young Prince Philip and Harry. They look very similar.

As for racism? Apne can be the biggest racists in the world. The way people speak of black people in Punjab is disgusting 'oh they have big lips', 'they look scary'. These are the things people openly say.

Then you have the East African Sikhs who used to refer to black people as 'boy'.

Sikhs can also be racist to other dark skinned Sikhs and Indians.

As for the Royal family they are dodgy. Just look at Prince Charles' friendship with notorious paedophile Jimmy Saville.

They are not a family to look up to as they are born into privilege and have not achieved much of note. It makes me laugh at how people bow down to them. I guess people love being slaves.

15 hours ago, Big_Tera said:

Yes our lot focus to much on being punjabi. Like we own the identity. Its not like we were the original punjabis. 

But we do put the p into punjabi as we dominate. through our culrure of music, dance and heritage. 

I would rather be known as a punjabi then a indian. 

We do pretty much own Punjabi identity these days. We are the only group that care about the language and are interested in its survival, most Punjabi singers are Sikh. This is so much so that even a lot of Sikhs don't know that there are Punjabi Hindus and Muslims, a lot of Indians outside of Punjab assume that Punjab is a 100% Sikh state, that is how much Punjabiyat is attached to Sikhism.

At the end of the day Maharaja Ranjit Singh and Jind Kaur were King and Queen. They were not saints who we should look for spiritual guidance. We all know that Ranjit Singh liked a drink or five. Ranjit Singh had multiple wives and lived a complete life of pleasure just like all Kings do. Sure he did good things for the panth but we shouldn't idolise him too much especially not as a model Sikh.

He's the only true strong King (in the literal sense) that we ever had and that is why we glorify him and have his portrait in Gurdwaras.

15 hours ago, GurjantGnostic said:

Citing music as a cause for societal degeneration started well before rap. 

Not saying rap isn't in this category, but heavy metal promoting racism, satanism, black magic, sex, drugs, violence, etc. isn't exactly wholesome, and has been effecting the uk much longer. 

Heavy Metal singers never sang about shooting and stabbing people in the same manner that rap does. Those heavy metal bands that promote racism, satanism were never played on mainstream radio or TV like rap music is.

But the biggest issue is boys growing up in fatherless homes.

16 hours ago, TejS said:

And I think a reason only Sikh people do it is because of the boastful nature of Punjabi culture, which our Muslim and Hindu counterparts have shed. Sikhi itself banishes any sort of egotistical behavior.

You're exactly right, we have these false narratives spread among the community of conquering Afghanistan, and defeating the Mughal Empire single handedly when none of this is true. And it seems like we're trying to make up for something, when the fact is that what our ancestors accomplished was more than enough given their population size.

I fully agree that we need to stop fighting other people's wars and get into fields that can lead to power, and finance is key to that.

We might be boastful simply due to the fact that we have always punched above our weight. The Sikh Empire was a great achievement and in all of the land that was ruled Sikhs must have been a total of 10% or less of the population but that was a long time ago and the empire itself didn't even last 100 years.

One of the biggest false narratives we spread is that Sikhs saved Hinduism from extinction. It makes me feel embarrassed as a Sikh when we say dumb things like that, it makes us look like a bunch of illiterate fools.

I don't think the boastfulness is a result of Punjabi mentality. It is due to Sikhism, even though Sikhism says not to have an ego. Hindus have India where they are the majority and Muslims have Pakistan and Bangladesh, we just have one state in India where we are a slight majority. We are always boasting because we want approval from the majority community. That is the main reason. 

8 hours ago, TejS said:

I'm not saying we should give up the Punjabi language, what I'm saying is that we need to give up Punjabi  cultural dominance, and buckle down on the Sikh identity more. We don't need Punjabiyat to dominate our way of thinking and behavior, because frankly, its not a very good way of thinking.

The SGPC not converting Ambedkar's Dalits was the greatest mistake in modern Sikh history. The elitist attitude of the SGPC led to Ambedkar concluding that Sikhi was only egalitarian on paper, and not in practice. Sikhi lost out on a lot of potential followers with that decision, and I'll argue that elitist attitude stems from Punjabi culture. 

We should not be obsessed with Punjabiyat, and instead be "obsessed" with Sikhi and its way of life. 

The only way I see this happening is if Sikhi spreads out to other ethnicities, however our own, such as in the case of Ambedkar, become an obstruction to that spread. 

That elitist attitude exists in all states in India not just Punjab. The upper castes in all states look down on the lower castes. Anyway Ambedkar was right, the vast majority of Sikhs believe in some form of caste system. Maybe it will go away in a couple of generations.

Even Muslims in Pakistan and India  practice some form of caste system. It is too ingrained. At the end of the day if someone is born into a higher caste and has power of lower castes, why would he want to give that up?

Personally I would like people in Punjab to become more literate and educated. Punjab is not know for academics and that is what needs to change.

It's a completely different scenario for Sikhs as compared to Punjabi Muslims and Punjabi Hindus.

Pretty much all Sikhs are Punjabi, 95% if not more. Whereas Muslims are from all over the world and Hindus are the majority in pretty much all states of India.

So Punjabiness will dominate our way of thinking and behaviour. All of our leaders will be from Punjab, our literature will be in Punjabi because there is no need to communicate in any other language to other people.

Gurmukhi is a Sikh script, it was invented by our Gurus so we will never let it go and Punjabi Hindus will never feel completely comfortable adopting it for this reason, hence why you see many Devanagari signs in Hindu dominated Jalandhar.

I've even heard that Dr Ambedkar and his followers (non Punjabis) were considering to convert to Sikhism but the SGPC didn't want that as it would have reduced their power and actively discouraged it.

The most holy shrines for Muslims are in Saudi Arabia and for Hindus they are in Benaras in Uttar Pradesh, for us they are mostly in Punjab. So again Punjab is more special to us than it is to Hindus and Muslims.

Sadly Sikhi did not spread to the same extent as these two religions. For a religion to spread it needs support from rulers and the only time we had a Sikh king in Punjab he was busy building more Mosques and Mandirs than he was building Gurdwaras. When we took over Delhi we handed it back a few days later to the Muslim Mughal King, just handed it back! Compare this to King Asoka who sent Buddhist missionaries all over India and to the far east.

We are so obsessed about Punjabiness because it is the only place in the world where we are a majority. It is like the country we never had.

As TejS said I think the Kara is not just associated with Sikhs just like the name Singh is not associated only with Sikhs.

I work in IT in the UK and see Hindus who come from all parts of India  wearing Karas and I'm sure it has nothing to do with Sikhism. Maybe Hindu Punjabis might wear it for those reasons but not other Hindus who hardly have any interaction with Sikhs or Sikhism in their life.

As for the area in front of Harmandir Sahib being cleaned up, I think this is a good thing. This is our holiest place and needs to be kept in good condition. Look at the outside of St Peter's Basilica, Mecca, St Paul's Cathedral, it is all very clean and modern. India is a dirty country and Amritsar is no exception, so much of it is absolutely filthy. Hopefully what they have done outside Harmandir Sahib can be pushed out further.

As for obesity, I went to Punjab in 2007 and again earlier this year, nothing's changed, Punjabis/Sikhs are still as fat as ever and don't know when to say no. In fact some people take pride in being fat, thinking they are thakra when in fact they are fat slobs! Punjab is the most obese state in India.

Blame it on our diet which consists of ghee, paronthe, kulchas and couple this with laziness and relying on cheap labour from Bihar. I also read that Punjab has the highest amount of alcohol shops per square metre in the world. It looks like Punjabis love consuming unhealthy things.

I think this article is 20 -30 years too late. Yes back in the 1960s, 70s, 80s and even 90s a lot of Sikh men who came to the UK from India drank excessively. This was due to them working in physically demanding jobs in factories, foundries and that too working excessive hours. They used drinking as a coping mechanism - to deal with the physical pain and lack of social life. With the excess drinking came the other problems like wife and child beating.

However the current generation (those born in the UK) do not go these same extremes, sure they might get hammered at a wedding or go on a heavy drinking session on the weekend (like every other ethnicity in the UK) but they are not doing it every day like the first immigrants to the UK did and they're not coming home to beat their wife and kids.

It's like with forced marriages, sure it may still go on in the Sikh community at a very slight amount but nowhere near the level it was back in the 70s, 80s and 90s, yet you will still get articles stating that it is a big problem in the Sikh community. It doesn't help that the president of the Black Sisters organisation in Southall keeps on going on about her own forced marriage ordeal that was back in the 1980s.

13 minutes ago, BhForce said:

You serious bro? Sikh Sangat is all those who believe in Sikhi. 

There are local Sikh sangats, as well, as indicated in the Sikh Rehit Maryada, and as also referenced in Hukumnamas from Guru Sahibs.

So you think you can dismiss an essay in 6 posts (with references) with 2 lines?

What specifically from above do you deny? Did you read it? If you don't want to read it, fine, but don't deny that Sikhs aren't responsible before the Sangat.

It's quite surprising that someone such as you who is posting such good pro-Sikh posts about keeping our Sikh population numbers up and looking out for threats from Muslims can post the above.

If times have moved on, why even bother about Sikh population numbers? Who even cares? Who cares if Sikhism or the Sikh panth lives or dies?

And if this isn't the 18th century anymore, it's certainly not the 16th or 17th century anymore, either, when Guru Granth Sahib ji was written. So why should we even bother with a 16th/17th century writing?

What are you on about, bro?

I am going by what the average Sikh is like. If you are talking about Amritdhari Sikhs who follow everything to a tee then I understand. However do you honestly think the average Sikh will voluntarily go in front of a Sikh Sangat and apologise for what they have done?

I'm just trying to be realistic.

Apologies for offending anyone.

What is the Sikh sangat?

Times have moved on. This isn't the 18th century anymore.

54 minutes ago, jkvlondon said:

not true at all that's just propaganda see this thread:

 

Interesting.

The same thing is happening with the alcoholics and drug reputation of Punjab. I went earlier this year and expected to see junkies and alcoholics everywhere but did not encounter a single one. They tried to say that 70% of Punjabi youth are drug addicts when in fact the truth was that 70% of all drug addicts are youth which is probably true in almost all countries in the world.

13 hours ago, jkvlondon said:

I call bull on the Hindu figure as they are the ones most likely to kill their daughter in utero...it's the same across all the northern hindu dominant states

We are just as bad if not worse.

41 minutes ago, Ranjeet01 said:

I have to disagree with the 1.6 because that would mean that Punjab has a fertility rate on par with western countries. 

There are also plenty of non NRI people getting married so I do not buy into that. There is no shortage of brides or bridegrooms with all the palaces and hotels telling us otherwise.

What use is there in lying? If anything that will make people have more children if they think their demographics are under threat.

1 minute ago, Ranjeet01 said:

Firstly, when I go to Punjab the average Sikh has 2 kids or more.

I don't know how they come to this 1.6 fertility rate figure. I dispute that figure.

Secondly, even though the muslim fertility rate is coming down (and that is due to them educating their women), even educated Muslim families still have higher fertility rates than the rest of the population. 

Thirdly,  I dispute the fact that Ravidassia are "oppressed " . If Dalits behaved like Ravidassia they would open their own temples and not even bother with the cash and prizes they receive from christian missionaries.  If anything Ravidassia are empowered. Nobody has stopped a Ravidassia going to a Gurdwara and do stuff that a normal sangat member does. Where their issue is with the power grab issues that a tiny minority within their community want. 

Like all politics. 

I can see where the 1.6 comes from. A lot of Sikh women go abroad to marry NRI Sikhs, leaving less women behind. 

The whole fertility rate of Punjab is 1.6, so it's not only the Sikhs who are having less kids, even the Punjabi Hindus. 

Punjab is a relatively more affluent state so people may be having less kids in general, whereas in places like Uttar Pradesh, Bihar etc people have more and this is what props up the Hindu population.

Maybe due to the drink and drug culture in Punjab less people are getting married?

At the end of the day Khatri, Jat, Rajput and Ramgarhia Sikhs still look down on low caste people, it's changing with the younger generation but those who are 50 and above will use disgusting terms for low caste people. I have seen this in Punjab and here in the UK, even Amritdharis are guilty of this. If you are being treated badly and not being accepted by a group then obviously you will want to move away from that group, only a fool would stay. This is why Islam was able to get a foothold in India and also Christianity.

13 hours ago, MahadrasSingh said:

This is what the rss don't want us to know, the hindu population is losing its will to expand (much like us right now) and their fertility plummets. Our muslim freinds on the other hand have the energy to want to spread so they keep pumping out babies (though their rate is slowing down as well). Our kaum should definitely start having at least 3 kids a family.

Having multiple kids is not the answer at all, all it does is lead to worse living standards and poverty. Are there enough jobs to go around in India for all of these extra kids? The answer is no.

2 kids per woman is enough to maintain a population and in a third world country the last thing people need is more people when resources and land are limited.

You will find that muslims are the poorest and least educated people in India and a lot of that is due to their rapid breeding and going to school in madrassas. Having said that even they are having fewer kids nowadays.

India made a massive blunder in not having population control in the 1950s and 1960s when people were having an average of 5 kids. When India got independence in 1947 the population was 350 million and now it is 1.2 billion! Talk about a massive blunder on the government's part!

Right now the birth rate per Hindu woman is 2.1, for Sikhs it's 1.6, Muslims it is 2.6 and Christians it is 2.

A low birthrate and an extremely poor sex ratio really doesn't look good for Sikhs in the future. Sikhs really need to put an end to female foeticide and get better education. The literacy rate is only 75%.

As for Hindus treating Dalits badly, do you think Sikhs are any better? Ravidas Sikhs are moving away from Sikhism due to the rampant casteism found amongst Sikhs, you know it's true.

On 17/02/2018 at 11:57 AM, Ranjeet01 said:

We are a canary in the coalmine community. 

I agree in part of what you say. But there are particular mechanics of how muslim communities move into areas where there are Sikhs. 

There is always a section of the muslim community that looks to what Sikhs are doing. They will notice where the Sikhs are moving to.

They seem themselves as better off than other muslims but they do not want to live amongst other muslims, because they are very aware that "Pa*** f*** things up". 

They do not say these things in front of other muslims but will privately admit these things. 

They will move into areas where there are Sikhs but what follows after is a deluge.

An example I can provide is that Sikhs in Slough are moving into South Bucks, places such as Farnham Common, Farnham Royal, Iver, Stoke Poges, Gerrards Cross. 

These areas are now to Sikhs as to what Langley in Slough used to be for Sikhs 25-30 years ago.

When I look at Langley now, it has turned into a complete dump. It used to be a more affluent area. There are a parade of shops on London Road (where there is a Fire Station), these shops have been replaced by a grocery shop with all fallen fruit and veg (it's a complete mess), there is a very popular Punjabi restaurant and right next to it is a halal kebab shop.

It's like muslims sniff out where the Sikhs are and then try to stamp their halal mark.  Very parasite like behaviour.

I suspect these greener affluent areas around Slough to become the same given 10-15 years from now. 

There are a parade of shops in Farnham Common. It's quite nice, it's got a couple of pubs, a Tesco and Sainsbury shop, a Costa Coffee place and a couple of restaurants. 

I despair what that area is going to become like. Once some i****t decides to open up a grocery shop, just watch how with the pin point accuracy , some Pakistani guy decides to open up a halal based business and watch how the goreh move out and the area go seriously downhill.

UK Sikhs will prefer goreh because the instinctively know it is the goreh that are the glue the hold things together, once they are not there things begin to unravel.

I know that I am saying some unsavoury things but I have had to look at the hard truth. 

We are not good at maintaining standards.

We turn into the 3rd world animals that we are when we are in a large numbers. 

I am also a 3rd world animal.

These are just my opinions and things I have had to reconcile in my head.

You're right, I'm also from the Langley area but it is still a good area especially the areas where apne are the majority like Upton, Langley Road. Trelawney Avenue has always been a dump.

The grocery shop that you talk about isn't that bad to be honest. The worst thing apne and all Asians do is the endless gaudy extensions with the pillars and light brown doors, ripping out the grass in the front garden and putting concrete there. It ruins the look of the area.

From what I have seen apne will move to an area where gorai are the majority (as more apne arrive the gorai move out), then the pakistanis come and finally the Polish. We are just economically better off than the pakistanis and when they do better themselves and want to move to a nice area then Apne are already the majority in that area.