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JotSinghUK

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About JotSinghUK

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    Aae Mil Gursikh Aae Mil
  1. Buying Shastars

    WJKK WJKF I had visited city Brampton in Ontario few years back to visit my massi Ji and there was a store I can't remember the name now. But they were run entirely on non profit (they had a big yellow sign if that helps if anyone who lives there can comment) and they had them for sale. Sorry I can't remember more. WJKK WJKF
  2. WJKK WJKF Well I can see the resentment you harbour toward females (and the sense of entitlement you feel for having the luck to be born male). You and previous poster chatanga have in the last few posts managed to compare women to animals, disabled, and homosexuals or eunichs. Let me ask you brother why do you feel that male gender is so above women? And why do you think some souls are born male and some female? It is some big prize to be born male and we are above females on spiritual ladder? Because I thought gurbani says human body is precious not just males ones. The way you are both talking makes it sounds like no different than our Hindu casteist neighbours who think a woman was born only to serve and has to wait future lifetimes to have any chance to know liberation. But aside from that your tone made it sound like women are supposed to be the ones hiding behind us? Is this what you want? You think Is it what Sri Guru Gobind singh Ji Maharaj wanted?? Because bro I want nobody hiding and want us all standing together and think that's what Guru Ji wanted. I won't change my mind and I've spoken or rather typed my thoughts why. I don't see any other explanation than haume to explain you and his thoughts. Abnway my only purpose posting in this thread was not to engage in nonsense arguments. But to just point out about Lucknow Gurudwara Prabandhak Committee and the decision to uphold this principle and they have had several females do this in last few months as an example so it's not mere talk. Other cities will follow and have started to implement as well in india. Please forgive any mistakes. With Waheguru Jis kirpa we will all come to understanding. WJKK WJKF
  3. Of course! I am not advocating that the lipstick wearing tight jeans clad tarts be selected to do this seva! Or the likes of Harnaam Kaur. They have to be brought up with proper teaching and religious life. And I am a strong advocate for turban on Kaurs too. But I think part of attracting girls to religious life is full inclusion instead of a secondary position in Sikhi or else many will unfortunately go elsewhere, and that elsewhere is usually abandoning religion all together. What girls will be attracted to a religiously dedicated life if that life means always taking second place to men? Instead they will find other things to be interested in if you know what I mean. Other religions or more often no religion at all.
  4. WJKK WJKF chatanga ji Your arguments are the same old arguments and make no sense to me. Let me put it to you a different way. Why have not many women till now stepped up for any leadership roles let alone as panj pyaras? Honestly I believe the fault lies on us historically for conditioning women to believe they can't. We ingrained centuries of lack of self confidence into them making them believe they were entirely dependent on us and incapable for themselves. Now put this into perspective in medieval Punjab where even Sikh women were expected to marry early, have babies, serve their husbands and be obedient to male leadership. Even if the Gurus had said women are free to exercise authority over their own lives and make decisions for themselves, how many women do you think first of all had both the freedom to do so without repercussion from their family, had the self confidence to do so? And if even if they had the self confidence to do so, how many felt that they would be abandoning their 'duty' to obey and serve their parents and or husbands in the process? At least that's the position (or even worse) where we started from at the time of the Gurus. Women were basically incubators and servants. We can't escape that truth. That should exaplin to you why there could be no woman taking up religious life (it's even frowned upon by Sikh parents today for a daughter). You can't use that reality to say that's what our Gurus wanted just because it was the reality of the time. Move a bit forward and we have the message from the Gurus through Gurbani. But that message which was ingrained persists even today so imagine how many women actually felt they could step up. I realize we have a few examples like Mata Sahib Kaur Ji and female masands prior, and of course Mata Bhag Kaur Ji but most women would have thought they were special cases and that life was out of their reach. So through rest of 1700s onward women were still chained. Not by anything our Gurus wanted. They were chained by us. By male ego. This was not the doing of Guru Gobind Singh Ji. He did not intend to further chain women to a lower existence. And I am sorry you think that way and also that you think being born female is a lesser step on the ladder below us on the path to liberation, in my mind makes you no better than casteist Hindus (who consequently saw women as beneath even the lowest caste males such that they had to serve males for several lifetimes before hoping to be born male). So to answer why no female has as of yet participated in Amrit sanchars at Darbar Sahib? it has nothing to do the message from our Gurus or Gurbani. It's our male egos. In short males are feeling threatened to imagine women having equal status and so simply, they refuse to let women have the chance. Second it's partly women's fault as how many have actually overcome this centuries of ingrained lack of confidence, cultural influence and had the courage to actually step up and demand their equal place? However there seems to be a revolution starting. Lucknow Gurudwara Prabandhak Committee (Lucknow is my birthplace) has passed resolution to put it into practice across entire city and now two Gurdwaras have had a female as one of the Panj. Sadar and Naka Gurdwaras have both done so in recent months. Change takes time and maybe this is Guru Gobind Singh Ji's example now taking form. Now let me ask you if the Gurus had originally arrived in a different culture (let's use Amazonian) where women were encouraged to be warriors and not subservient by their culture, do you think it would have been an entirely different outcome? Since women were encouraged in that culture to lead in battles (I realize Mai Bhago did but that was not the norm where it was the norm in Amazon culture) and that included women leading men and this was the norm, do you think those circumstances would have still produced all male Gurus, and five males when five heads were called for? It's not likely. Since the message in Gurbani is universal and for all, and even Khalsa is universal and for all and not just medieval Punjab, then how can we use the example of medieval Punjab which included a suppressed and subservient existence for women which we still perpetuate today, and claim that's what our Gurus wanted for all time and all cultures? Unless you are trying to claim that Sikhi and the Khalsa were also only meant for medieval Punjab and if you think that then you have a very narrow minded view and are one of the reasons why Sikhi has not spread like other religions. Lastly, now that we are no longer in that cultural time and place do you want to see women leave Sikhi for better pastures (mostly atheism) because they are now globally surpassing this idea that their existence is here to serve us and produce babies? Because continuing to push them to a lower subservient role will donone of two things, drive them away from Sikhi completely because they feel there is nothing in it for them, or they will start to rebel and demand their equal rights. And we are seeing both now. There is not only one petition which was submitted to Akal Takht in recent times by the way. This was only the most recent. We are also seeing women leave Sikhi in droves mostly to abandon religion altogether which is tragic. In the end women can actually cause the death of Sikhi if enough leave. We will get smaller and smaller in numbers. So we have a choice. And including them as equals actually fulfills Gurbani's message of equality and does not actually explicitly go against any recorded message from our Gurus. Please stop using tradition as a reason as that is a very weak reason. When a tradition involves marginalizing a group, that tradition needs to stop. as for marriage, for obvious reasons you need a male and female. Married life the aim is to produce offspring and live life of householder. Obviously two males or two females or a eunuch can't do that. Thats why anand Karaj is between a male and female. And that has nothing to do with argument of who can administer amrit. The rule for disabilities has been explained by Akal Takht themselves that one needs to be physically fit to sit in bir posture which can be physically demanding obviously requiring limbs. They require to be able to speak to recite and have their arms and hands to physically prepare the Amrit. They require their vision to see the initiate and the eyes are the window to the soul and the eyes are actually acting as vision for Guru Ji through the Panj, so that's why they need to conform to those standards, and none of this requires specific gender. Though we disagree on this doesn't mean I aim to disrespect in anyway so Inappologize if any of this came across that way brother. WJKK WJKF
  5. Ahh but bro there is a reason why one needs limbs. You can't physically prepare Amrit without the correct body parts. So that makes sense. But women do have all the correct body parts. And my argument has nothing to do with differences in physical bodies anyway. My argument is based on two things: That Guru Ji has never explicitly disallowed women. Nowhere in any written document does it explicitly say "women are not allowed" it's been taken for granted that the word Singh suggests it, however Gurbani itself uses the word Singh to speak of the lion species male and female both. The word man is used for all of mankind. There is also no historical evidence to show that women were never part of it before. Remember just because there is no written accounts we can find, doesn't mean it didn't happen. And why does a different last name have to mean that Guru Gobind Singh Ji intended to keep women 'in their place' so to speak? I always thought the reason for Kaur was that we have gender neutral first names and also that women instead of having to take husbands identity on marriage would always keep her own identity. It was supposed to be liberation for women not just a different set of chains for them. Secondly Guru Ji gave full rights to the panth to make decisions. This is the major important point. He would never have given full rights to the panth to make decisions, and then when a decision is made which was based on Gurbani's message of equality (Gurbani is our living Guru and primary source of morality) agreeing that Kaur's should not be marginalized or treated as lesser in Sikhi, and then be angered that same decision was made. A decision he gave the power to the panth to make. Again the correct Rehet Maryada is the one given to you by Panj Pyaras and if they specifically say women can equally do all seva as males (and this has been verbally stated at Amrit sanchars even here in the U.K.) then who can argue with this Guru given authority? Isn't Guru Gobind Singh Ji supposed to himself be there in person when five Sikhs come together?? Who are you to disagree with them? Have you stood in their place as one of the five during an Amrit sanchar and felt his presence yourself? Also, you are using what was a very pertinent social reality of that time which meant that women were very much in a degraded position in society as someone aptly put it a few posts back, as "broodmares" which parents desired to marry off as early as possible, to be then controlled by a husband (never having any real authority over their own life and fearing being killed if they disobeyed - yes even by Sikh parents and this is an unfortunate reality and blemish on our culture even today) and you are trying to say that horrible social norm for that time and place is actually his hukam for all time, whilst completely ignoring the message in Gurbani which is beyond time and is for everyone and says all humans should be seen with a single eye of equality. You can't take an injustuce form our past, which happened to exist at the time of the Gurus (and explains why there were no female Gurus or female bhagats or even the first five Panj Pyaras) you can't use that injustice which was forced upon women of that time to justify more injustice for all time stating it is his 'hukam'. I am sorry you can't see past your prejudices but you won't change my thoughts bro. Doesn't change that we are all in this path together and we should respect one another.
  6. Sangat Ji WJKK WJKF I hope it's ok, I just wanted to share a website which I think has a great in depth explanations of Gurbani and deeper spiritual meanings in plethora of articles on all possible subjects. I am in no way connected to the author, I just found his website to be a gem and wanted to share. Reflections On Gurbani http://www.gurbani.org/articlemenu.php
  7. Sikh Women And The Politics Of Hair

    I'm not even sure what to call Harnaam Kaur. She started out seemingly innocent but then somewhere fell completely apart. The modelling in skimpy clothes, the tattoos, the bearded wedding photo shoot (though she was not engaged), alcohol openly, I remember a photo from a long time ago she was clearly wearing a gatra in the photo. What happened?
  8. It doesn't matter that they were in male bodies. The awareness behind every human is not the body or the gender of the body. It's pure jyot genderless. In that cultural time in India you hardly saw women even in public gathering at all (even today you hardly see women at public gatherings). In that time, a female form as Guru would not have been listened to (and possibly not even now as some of you still harbour this same resentment deep inside). It's same question as why the Gurus were all high caste. The message of equality can not come from those in the lower position (at least not without a lot of blood). Slave masters claiming that slavery was wrong meant so much more than slaves claiming the same. It was same for women. In that time women were little more than property, the Gurus in male form claiming all humans were equal meant way more than if a female was Guru claiming the same. As for Panj Pyaras hardly any women being at public gatherings back then how many women do you think were actually present? And what about all the males who did not give their heads they get to ride on coat tails of the first five simply because they have the same genitalia? If physical form is that important to copy then again I ask why not also copy their eye colour, skin colour etc? But I am betting you don't have any issues with a white Singh doing this seva am I right? So why only the gender? I bet you also don't see a problem with males putting the patashas in the Amrit and if everything must be copied as original why does that not bother you when this should always be female then? Why doesn't a Singhni always be present with Panj Pyaras at Nagar kirtans accompanying Guru Granth Sahib Ji? It is because we seem to get all defensive when we feel a lowly woman is encroaching on something we feel entitled to. But when it's something they should have special we don't care. All this is moot. Can you not see past the cultural necessity of the time where women were very much marginalized and would not be listened to? Anyway this is my own thoughts and if you disagree that's ok but I still feel it's yourself your are ultimately hurting because you are so trapped in duality you can't possibly think that the conscious awareness behind the body of all humans is one and the same. By refusing to try to see it you are only hurting your own progression. By the way Rehet Maryada is whatever Panj Pyaras give to you. Panth and they have full power of decision making. Rehet Maryada can change over time, Gurbani can't. It's timeless.
  9. Sikh Women And The Politics Of Hair

    I Am not married yet but I prefer Singhni with dastar and body hairs don't bother me at all because they are natural. It's society which made body hair on a woman labelled as masculine. In reality it's just hair and all humans have it. I personally think that Kaurs with dastar are beautiful and feminine in a way that isn't worldly.
  10. What is the point of paying for Akhand Paath?

    Forgive me if I have said anything wrong, I just think the point is to at least listen to it while it's being recited or as someone above said it's the easy way out. And what do we get just knowing someone else is doing the paath and we aren't even concentrating on the meaning? I think a better way to host paath is to be physically present at least, if not he one doing the actual reciting. Local Gurdwaras can do it and that would facilitate that much easier. But paying someone long distance doesn't makes sense to me.
  11. Liberal extremism is only bad when pandering to everyone to fit in western society (or any group including Hindus, Muslims etc) however women have been given equality by our Gurus so there is no pandering there. If you think so please show me one Gurbani tuk which says women should have a secondary role or lesser place in Sikhi. Because I have never found one. And though not explicit with gender I have found many tuks stating that as Gurmukhs we are to see everyone equally. Though to be fair it does say also that those who can do so are altars indeed and this is a great example. Just because we are stronger physically we think we are superior and should have more privilege over them when Gurbani does not support this. Despite our physical bodies, Gurbani says that we are judged on our actions alone. Therefore a woman of high avastha should be judged on that and not her gender which she had no control over. On grand scheme of things, everything is one. There is no duality. Akal Purakh IS everything and everyone. Our separate consciousness is an illusion created by this duality. In fact even our bodies are illusion. The Gurus knew this. If we continue to perpetuate the illusion by privileging some and limiting others on things which are out of their control like their gender which is only for procreation, then we only serve to solidify the illusion caused by duality. If we instead realize that every soul literally is Waheguru then it's not so hard to see how can you limit anyone based on caste colour gender or anything else. You are essentially delving further into duality by telling someone no they can't do something no matter how high their spiritual level is. In reality you are hurting yourself more than them. A brahamgiani their main realization is seeing past this illusion and seeing all as one. When we surpass duality then we begin to realize the divine in our own self. Im not saying anything should be changed, rather I am saying Sikhi always considered all humans equally. What some Sikhs have done or thought (yes even Sants) will be based on what they were taught from whatever samprada they originated. We already have several sampradas disagreeing on several different issues and claiming they were originated directly from Guru Ji so how can this be? The answer is human thought, locked and isolated in this physical reality and separated from the true ONEness of all. The reason I say even Sants is not to cause disrespect at all. A sant is someone who follows exactly religious life and has high knowledge but that knowledge will be based on the path they took to reach that level, which we know there are several different ways. But a Sant is not necessarily a Brahamgiani (they could be) but the two are mutually exclusive. In Gurbani there is a tuk which says when one realizes within that HE IS ME and realizes their own self, then what more is there to be done? When someone realizes that he IS me (The divine within) then they realize that everyone else is also that same divine jyot. That includes women. So no I am not pandering to anyone and I don't have a problem with women doing seva as Panj Pyaras because I try to see past the body and see the light within. I'm trying to see past duality which I think is our whole point of existence. Please forgive me sangat Ji if I have said anything wrong.
  12. Dasam granth

    WJKK WJKF If you have iPhone you can download iSearchGurbani which has both SGGSJ and DG on it. If you are not opposed to electronic version that is.
  13. Wow this thread seems to have derailed init? You know the Gurus all taught that all humans should be treated equally and it's in Gurbani right? It says one should be judged only by his/ her own actions (something in ones control) and not by what body or gender we happen to have been lucky (or unlucky) enough to be born in (something out of ones control). Also it should be pointed out that a petition is not necessary as it's already in Rehet Maryada that it can be either. If some of you are so caught up on following exactly the original why stop at gender? What about same eye colour, same height etc? And in that case a woman should always be the only one allowed to add the patashas? But reality is that these same and loudest nay Sayers don't see a problem having a man add them? Anyway either can be done by either as long as they have high avastha and strict Rehet. But I posted in other forum as a guest you know that entire city of Lucknow all Gurdwaras have agreed to uphold Rehet Maryada and several Gurdwaras have now had female Panj Pyaras and this was not opposed (loudly anyway) and mostly welcomed. It's a good start! The news was from April. https://www.google.co.in/amp/m.timesofindia.com/city/lucknow/gender-bender-women-panj-pyara-at-sadar-gurdwara/amp_articleshow/58231304.cms
  14. Sangat Ji, i have been noticing a disturbing trend of especially here in the west, instead of doing paath themselves will pay for the paath to be done in Darbar Sahib on their behalf? What is this nonsense and what does anyone get out of paying for others to do paath in their absence? Isn't the point of paath to do on ones own for gian? My family for example do it ourselves and we all take turns even the young ones who can read. And we do langar during and do all the seva ourselves. Isn't that the point? I think it's ritualistic for one to pay others to do it while they go party or watch the television etc. Pointless!
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