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DTF last won the day on July 3 2015

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    Jeh Jaaeeay Thahaa Sohelay
  1. You're absolutely correct Ranjeet Singh that there is a correlation between increasing literacy and declining fertility. One would hope that Sikh females can have the intelligence to nevertheless gain education as they should but nevertheless attempt to maintain fertility at above replacement levels for the benefit of wider society and the Sikh Panth as a future consequence (as increased wages with better education would also allow them to). Well said Singh. Sikhs should be at the forefront of adopting children rather than expensive IVF treatments Actually it makes perfect sense as to why Pakistani's would wish to see us as Sikhs remain divided. Well said Canadian Singh Ji. Combatting female infanticide has to be prioritised with immediate effect.
  2. MISTERRSINGH: If I was a white guy who wanted to marry a Sikh girl and all I had to do was memorise verses from the Sikh scriptures and regurgitate them infront of a priest in order to make the marriage official, I'd struggle to keep a straight face. If the sanctity of the Anand Karaj hadn't already been adversely affected, this'll be pushing things towards "sham" territory. I'm amazed how Sikhs have jumped on this like it's a magical solution to this issue. Bhai Sahib Ji i understand your valid concerns but I strongly support educational parchar about Sikhi as a must for all couples regardless of background. It will reinforce knowledge of what Sikhi is all about and why the couples should be active members of the Sikh community and also raise their children as Sikhs. Though undoubtedly a few crooks might creep through the net the overall effect will be overwhelmingly beneficial to the Sikh Panth. MISTERRSINGH: The problem is we're a minority as it is. Our numbers aren't the strongest. We can't play at this stuff. We don't have that luxury at all. This is a half measure; a sticking plaster over a gaping wound. If I had my way I'd go the whole nine yards and insist the Akal Takhat pass a universal ruling that only those who've taken Amrit can have an Anand Karaj. Sure, it's throwing the kaka out with the bathwater, but then we'd see how many are truly serious about Sikhi. It'd punish those who have an affinity for Sikhi who aren't Gursikh (amongst other knock-on issues), but at least we wouldn't be open to accusations of double standards or racism, etc. There's just so many related issues that branch off from this seemingly basic problem; issues that will have a long lasting impact on things beyond the Anand Karaj. Oh well, I suppose all religions and philosophies go through periods of change where the problems and issues of the age affect them. It's to be expected as the years roll by. I shouldn't get too caught up in these shenanigans, I'm sure wiser and more knowledgeable Sikhs than I have a plan. I agree with you Bhai Sahib that people are simply not factoring the reality that in Diaspora societies we are surrounded by a 99% non-Sikh population (indeed even so in India outside of Punjab). However, I believe that this education about Sikhi is a step in the right direction. Anand Karaj being reserved for Amritdhari Sikhs might be a possible solution so long as a Sikh Marriage Blessing is available as an alternative at Gurdwara for all those others that desire their marriage to blessed at a Gurdwara. Does Guru Sahib (Shabad Bani) feel insulted or suffer Beadbi depending upon the convictions (that only Akaal Purakh can truly see) of those that circumambulate Guru Sahib? I personally do not believe so. BALKAAR: The only way we could ever be sure that the prospective bride and groom are practicing Sikhs is if they are Amritdhari. Maybe, but that might generate an even worse problem. If it becomes mandatory for budding couples to have received Pahul, is it possible that non-Sikhs might take Amrit so that they can then marry a Sikh? How will these infiltrators be weeded out? A test? We will just run into the same problem all over again. Perhaps we should just make the whole thing so protracted and complicated for those not of our people that the non-Sikh decides they would rather bail and give up than continue with the marriage, lol. Balkaar Singh Ji i think you rightly identify a lot of issues. Restricting Anand Karaj to those that profess to be Amritdhari like Sukhbir Badal whilst alienating the 90% of Sikhs that are sehajdhari and the 5% of that are Kesdhari non-Amritdhari's without offering the 95% majority of the community at least a Sikh Marriage Blessing as suggested would be a total recipe for long term disaster to our Panth's demographics. True. We should do our best to explain the benefits of the Truth of Sikhi but we can't really act as the thought police as only Akaal Purakh can judge. RANJEET01: A lot of good points made,maybe the best solution would be to have only Amritdharis have Anand Karaj. Speaking for myself, I think that if decided so by the Sarbat Khalsa that could be reluctantly supported however, with the vital fallback that all sehajdhari, kesdhari and other couples that desire for their marriage to be blessed at a Gurdwara are still able to receive a Sikh Marriage Blessing at their local Gurdwara at the very least. STARSTRIKER: They dont even know, that anand karaj's were only for amritdharis originally. Bro this is what anti-Sikh opponents of Singh Sabha ideology like to portray in some books. However, the reality is that sehajdhari and kesdhari Sikhs have always been accommodated in Anand Karaj and furthermore to this day couples where both spouses are from non-Sikh backgrounds are blessed in matrimony via Anand Karaj. Given how Hindu and Muslim marriages are predicated on money and the burden they impose upon the poor, it would break my heart if such couples were turned away in the future. Bhai Sarbjit Singh Rangila, Bhai Ranjit Singh Dhadrianwale, Bhai Panthpreet Singh Khalsa have also bought thousands into Sikhi via support for their subsidised Anand Karaj seva. JSINGHNZ: Anand Karaj has always been for Sikhs and never only for Amritdhari's "originally". Agreed brother but remember that Anand Karaj in of itself is an affirmation (if sincerely proferred) that the 2 participants are indeed Sikhs. Bro i don't think MisterrSingh Ji scoffed at the idea but rather had reservations as to how it too could easily be breached by insincere parties. But you are absolutely right to support this education about Sikhi to all couples (regardless of background) as only by educating people about the Truth of Sikhi will they believe in it and become a part of the Gurdwara Sangat and thus raise their children as Sikhs if we handle everything sensibly seeking to include rather than alienate. The Sikh Council's advisory is emphatic that youth cannot turn up to protest and block as that is very counter-productive to the interests of the Sikh Panth moving forwards. SIKHISTAN: And all Sikhs are supposed to be Amritdharis after 1699 Brother all Sikhs are meant to strive to become Amritdhari's but it is counter-productive to our own interests as Sikhs for the 95% majority of the Panth that are sehajdhari and kesdhari to be excluded from the Panth (as not being Sikhs according to your definition). HRMAN: Sir (we) are on the path of brahmins , then next (we) will say Only amritdhari can enter darbar hall ,Only amritdhari can read Guru Granth Sahib , Only Amritdhari can have langar at gurudwara . This is not Sikhi ,Guru Granth sahibji is not for so called "Sikhs" only .its universal thats why Guru sahib included the contribution from (Gurmukhs and Bhagats of previously) Hindu (or) Muslim (parentage) ....You ppl are doing just opposite ,you are doing beadbi of Guru Sahib . Bhai Sahib Ji i agree with the intent of your message. I can sincerely vouch that MisterrSingh is not part of the biprenwaad element determined to make Sikhi as small and microscopic a population as possible but was rather pointing out his fears for our Panth's future. I absolutely share your pain and frustration at where it seems some elements of the Panth want to lead the Panth. I strongly and fervently feel Anand Karaj should be made the number one mode for marriage within India as it would free hundreds of millions of poor families from the onerous financial requirements imposed by Hindu and Muslim marriages and that the same could be a springboard for millions to become new Sikhs as was the case at the height of Singh Sabha parchar in the first four decades of the 20th century. Just to add Veer Ji that the message of Gurbani is consistent and Dhan Dhan Baba Kabir Ji Maharaj, Dhan Dhan Baba Ravidas Ji Maharaj and Dhan Dhan Bhagat Namdev Ji Maharaj, for example, despite being born to Hindu and Muslim parents all roundly rejected everything about Hinduism and Islam and condemned both Hinduism and Islam as evil ideologies built upon slavery and oppression. Ancestry is irrelevant and conviction is everything in Sikhi. Brother, as far as I understand the course is for everyone (as it should be). Failure to commit to or understand Sikhi would mean the option of a Sikh Marriage blessing would be offered. Importantly people turning up in masks and hoodies to block a wedding being blessed at a Gurdwara would be avoided as that would have been disastrous in the long term had that been allowed to continue. Even a willingness to participate without full conviction or understanding shows an element of respect for one's partner's faith in Sikhi and via educational parchar that can be built upon into translating that into a sincere belief that Sikhi and Sarbat da Bhala are vital for the betterment of the world we live in. Anand Karaj in of itself has always been an affirmation that both parties are Sikh. This is an attempt to gauge a couple's sincerity on that. Bhai Sahib i agree that there may be cultural Sikhs who have such an agenda but there also others (including Amritdhari GurSikhs) who are absolutely horrified at the suggestions that a Gurdwara would close it's doors to those who wish for their marriage to be blessed at a Gurdwara (as opposed to any other religious or secular institution). Maybe I'm slightly liberal but I would genuinely like to see hundred of millions of Anand Karaj's throughout India and the world whereby two erstwhile non-Sikh spouses come into Sikhi and escape the lies and financial obligations imposed upon the poor by Hinduism, Islam and Christianity. Sikhi can be hundred of millions strong in a short amount of time this way with a new expanded Khalsa Fauj of millions able to do seva globally for the poor and the oppressed as a consequence. I recognise that may not be the path on which we are headed on currently given the determination of a small but vocal minority to turn Sikhi into a small exclusive biprenwaad cult practice that continually encourages the exlcusion of people from it's ranks (rather than the opposite as our opponents do to their advantage and our consequent disadvantage as a small minority). If a person says they are a new Sikh, adopts the name Singh or Kaur, can demonstrate knowledge of Sikhi and confirm their conviction of it and gets married by way of Anand Karaj ... what more do you possibly want them to do bro?
  3. Absolutely brilliant and inspirational Singhs. That's a true GurSikh and real Sikhi in action (Sarbat da Bhala). If we focus on trying to emulate the actions of this GurSikh then the Sikh Panth can flourish for the benefit of all. Look at the positive PR generated by this Singh in contrast to the usual negative PR we often generate recently. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y7cT2bUJxic https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N2Etz40yrpo https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bZhFTMeS22g
  4. Proactive Bhai Sahib excellent posts as always. I fully agree with you that Sikh numbers have deliberately been deflated by the centre in every census all the way between between 1951-1991 particularly by excluding sehajdhari non-Punjabi Sikhs. However, I am not sure if our numbers in Punjab have been deflated in 2001 and 2011. In fact my suspicion is that they been massaged to hide the massive inward migration into Punjab which would not look good for the governing Badal Dal & BJP coalition. The fact that these numbers were delayed by 4years indicates to me a political calculation was done to keep Sikh masses in a slumber about our numbers. The wholesale proliferation of Balmiki and Dera Ballan apartheid mandirs in Majha and Malwa in this decade (particularly since the majority of those from the said so-called backgrounds were still Sikhs until 2011 is indicative of this gameplan being operated by our enemies). We do need to take the numbers seriously.
  5. Following that line of logic (true) Sikhs constitute not much more than 2% of the Punjab population. The Sikh Panth includes non-GurSikhs. 2% minorities don't really tend to be able to defend themselves against state sponsored Genocide and discrimination. Undoubtedly they have Ranjeet but due to their billion plus co-religionists we don't always perceive this. We need to strive to include all so-called HP's that attend Gurdwara as fellow Sikhs to reduce native HP numbers further to boost our own. Essentially we need to turn Hindutva tactics back on those that hate Sikhs. The best Gursikh candidate to defeat the Badals in 2017 is HS Phulka Ji of the AAP. The AAP already hold all four Malwa MP seats. Exactly SikhKosh Ji. Sher Singh Ghubaya (MP for Firozpur) as a Sikh of Gujjar ancestry himself has spoken of the urgent need for parchar to Gujjars given that we do not utilise Mata Gujjar Kaur's ancestry as an educational inroad to facilitate greater parchar to them. The problem is we are not significantly better than other communities. The British ruled all of India with 100,000 men. My conclusion from our dire state is that perhaps we do not possess even 100,000 true Gurmukhs in Punjab as I firmly believe that every one of our problems can be solved via our own individual commitment aligned with like-minded Sadh Sangat. Us constantly railing at Brahmins is not helping us communicate the great examples of Gurmukhs like Shaheed Bhai Mati Das Ji and Shaheed Bhai Sati Das Ji. Particularly since a huge percentage of the Amritdhari Sikhs in Jammu & Kashmir and Uttarakhand are of originally Brahmin ancestry. Granted that the present PM of Pakistan is also of 100% Brahmin ancestry and so are most of the Pakistan flag waving Kashmiri leaders in India but we still desperately need to do more parchar to the Brahmins rather than simply railing against them on a generalised basis imho. No nation, no base and no Raj will ever occur any time soon if we become a minority in Punjab by the 2021 census. So all of us Sikhs need to unite and to smash biraderi and jatha-based segregation within the Panth straight away. Without addressing the problems of female infanticide, drugs, biraderi apartheid, illiteracy, cancer, poverty, alcohol addiction as primary priorities no Raj will ever occur. Once we have a 100% united, 100% literate people, 100% free from drugs Raj will become 100% inevitable - and not just in Majha and Malwa where we still remain a majority but througout all of India (as a pre-cursor to global Khalsa Raj - which means rule via justice for all).
  6. StarStriker Singh Ji no worries at all and no need to apologise at all dost. I know how passionately you care about Sikhi so I knew that you meant it from a point of view of defending Sikhi so its all good. Despite all Sikhs having different opinions from time to time, we are one indivisible united Sikh Panth and nothing can stop us if we become United and stay United (no pun intended) on the biggest issues that matter.
  7. The vast majority of new Sikhs in the early 20th century embraced Sikhi out of conviction prior to Anand Karaj. However, a not insignificant minority of the huge number of new Sikhs in that era came into Sikhi via Anand Karaj (particularly as wives). StarStriker bro use your logic on this for a minute. Muslims were a majority in those area's in 1947 (agreed). Pakistan wanted all of Majha, Malwa and Doaba in Pakistan in 1947. Now bear in mind the statistic that the Sikh percentage of the Punjabi population grew by more than 73% between 1901 to 1941. Imagine that happening happening in the next 40 years from now - that would be the equivalent of 20 million new Sikhs on top of our current numbers. So let's say we have 1000 Muslims in a village in 1947. That same village used to have 450 Sikhs back in 1901. But due to our Panth's population percentage as a proportion of the whole increasing by more than 73% during 1901-1941, the Sikhs in the same village now number 780 people, that altered the equations drastically (in terms of Pakistan not managing to annex Majha, Malwa and Doaba in 1947). So in short if Singh Sabha parchar and Anand Karaj had not bought the new Sikhs to the Panth that they did between 1901-1941 there was every chance the Muslim numerical supremacy would have made avoiding a Genocide of Sikhs in Majha, Malwa and Doaba much much harder to fight off. Take the Kharku Lehar after 1984 as an example. Do you think Sikhs would have better able to battle Congress if we had a 73% bigger population or not? The answer is obvious. Numbers matter. And I stand by my point that if the new Sikhs that came into Sikhi between 1901-1941 had not bolstered Sikh numbers to the point where we could combat and fight back the east Punjab Muslim death squads with broadly comparable numbers then east Punjab may well have ended up in Pakistan at the time. By the way it wasn't just your grandparents that fought to prevent the planned wholesale Genocide of Sikhs in east Punjab in 1947 and their planned subsequent annexation of east Punjab into Pakistan it was everyone's ancestors (including my own) as the choice was simple, either we fight to save ourselves in at least east Punjab where we had comparable numbers to the Muslims or we faced complete Genocide at the hands of Jinnah's Muslim League death squads. Exactly Ranjeet and think where we would have been in 1947 had Giani Ditt Singh Ji's Singh Sabha parchar not been instrumental in increasing Sikhs by more 73% proportionally between 1901-1941. It doesn't even bear thinking about if the Sikhs had not managed to valiantly save east Punjab from the Genocide that Jinnah and his cohorts had planned for Sikhs there. Ok that's good to read Cisco Singh that a Hindu Mandir wedding was avoided and that the marriage was rightfully blessed at a Gurdwara.
  8. Look at the statistics Ranjeet Singh Ji. 32% of the Punjab population are from a so-called scheduled caste background. So in Pakistan those same castes were not allowed in to Mosques or to bury their dead in the same graveyards and hence mostly became Christians. But with Pakistani Punjabi's mostly being Muslim Jatts, Muslim Rajputs, Muslim Gujjars etc despite exclusion and discrimination against so-called lower castes the same population that became Christians only amount to 2million out of a Pakistani Punjabi population of 100million as Muslims have the highest percentage of so-called higher castes among religious communities. Similarly with the Hindu's the so-called SC comprise 16.6% of their population so if they all leave Hindu ranks en masse it won't plunge the Hindu's into minority status within India. Agreed that Jatts like Dhillon of the Radha Swami's and Sidhu of Dera Jhoota Sauda are hoodwinking their overwhelmingly poorer flock but why should we as Sikhs allow conmen to demographically harm the Panth? Conversely, in our case communities that were strongly associated with Sikhi right from the start (Ravidassia and Mazhabi) are being fed a narrative that they are better off leaving Sikhi and becoming de facto part of the Hindu fold as Balmiki and Dera Ballan apartheid mandir adherents. The net effect of which is that if 25% of the Punjab SC population (=8% of the total Punjab population) decides to swap the Truth of Sikhi for the lies of Hindutva apartheid philosophy over the next 6years then Sikhi becomes a minority in east Punjab by the time of the 2021 census. Agreed about Hindutva thinkers not considering the sword arm aspect but make no mistake that due to our own stupidy of not eradicating biraderi differentiation they are outboxing us big time. The last 31years prove that beyond doubt. Sikhi is not the problem. It is us Sikhs who are the problem who are ignoring Gurmat's clear instructions to us that we must destroy all traces of biraderi differentiation and matrimonial apartheid within our Panth.
  9. Nevertheless Ranjeet Ji the point still stands. In as far as that Hindu's did not block wherever the marriage was conducted with the Pandit mumbling his nonsense. Whereas Sikhs will forever be associated in the couple's mind as the people who "blocked" them from having their marriage and arguably most special day blessed at a Gurdwara. Ironic given that it was always so-called high caste Qazi's and Pandits that pushed many of Punjab's poorer non-Sikhs (that these Qureshi caste Qazi's and Pandits vehemently despised) in the early 20th century to get married via Anand Karaj and consequently swell Sikh ranks as a result. Without the Sikhs that came into Sikhi via Singh Sabha parchar and Anand Karaj's of that era there was every chance that Jinnah could have annexed Malwa, Majha and Doaba into Pakistan in 1947 had the numbers been different.
  10. That's exactly the point Ranjeet Singh Ji. Sikhs are not meant to have any affiliation to caste whatsoever. But the fact that some still do in 2015 and have even seen fit to segregate the community matrimonially and for worship purposes at separate Gurdwara's is a shocking indictment of us 316 years after 1699. How can we prevent Hindutva divide and rule tactics being employed against us via Balmiki and Dera Ballan Mandirs to push us into a minority in Punjab by the 2021 east Punjab census when half of the bhekhi's out there won't marry their sons or daughters to those from similar backgrounds as Dhan Dhan Baba Ravidas Ji Maharaj or Bhai Jiwan Singh Ji to cite two examples. A community that practices matrimonial apartheid 316 years after 1699 is rotten to the core and should expect more discrimination and oppression from larger political entities going forward if it cannot reform itself.
  11. Ranjeet Singh Ji i personally don't have any statistical analysis to support the common sense inference. But let's take the case of the Walsall marriage that was blocked recently this month. The couple just went ahead and got married at a Hindu Mandir subsequently without issue or protest. I would hazard a guess that they might feel more welcomed by the Hindu community as a result. And that they might feel happier bringing up their children attending Mandirs in the future as a result.
  12. StarStriker bro if you look at the link on Hrman Singh's OP the link for figures is available there. I'm not quite sure about if 80% of Haryana becoming Sikh would have been realistically achievable given that the Jatts have always been notorious opponents of Sikhs in the 1947 Pakistani Genocide of Sikhs and comprised the majority of the Delhi police in 1984 like the Jatt Sajjan Kumar but we should still try our best with parchar even now. But for definite if we all work unitedly as a Panth (putting aside our differences to focus on what unites us) we can increase Sikh numbers to over 100million in our lifetime and from that point on future generations can start to dream of sehajdhari Sikhs becoming a majority throughout India. The consequent result of a massive increase in Sikh numbers will be that as the overall numbers for the Sikh Panth increase so will the numbers and quality of the Khalsa Panth increase just like in 1699 when we saw our Panj Piare coming from as far apart as Gujarati, Orissa, Dravidian, Potohar and Hastinapur geographic origins not to mention their different biraderi origins which Sikhi eradicated.