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BhForce

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  1. Questions from an ignorant manmukh, vol.1

    The passage reads: Vol I, Life of Guru Nanak, p51
  2. Questions from an ignorant manmukh, vol.1

    Well, I guess you answered my questions #1-3, but not #4, so go ahead and do that, please. It seems that you do accept the idea of punishment to the extent of the crime, which seems fine to me. Just like you were upset, I would be upset if there were no punishment for the evil deeds that people commit. I think that some people take the idea of a "loving God" too far, and think that they should be able to do whatever they want to do, and have no consequences. I don't think you are saying that, though. As far as Hell, it seems it depends how you define it. I guess you thought "hell" mean "eternal hell". I would think hell is a place that you get punishment; the length of the punishment is up to God in regards to your misdeeds. As for your question regarding the possibility of redemption for people in hell, yes, the Sikh scriptures do speak to that. First of all, there is a hell in which sinners are thrown: ਸਲੋਕ ਮਃ ੪ ॥ ਜੋ ਨਿੰਦਾ ਕਰੇ ਸਤਿਗੁਰ ਪੂਰੇ ਕੀ ਸੁ ਅਉਖਾ ਜਗ ਮਹਿ ਹੋਇਆ ॥ One who slanders the Perfect True Guru, shall have difficulty in this world. 14148 ਗਉੜੀ ਕੀ ਵਾਰ:੧ (ਮ: ੪) ਗੁਰੂ ਗ੍ਰੰਥ ਸਾਹਿਬ : ਅੰਗ ੩੦੯ ਪੰ. ੧੦ p 309 ਨਰਕ ਘੋਰੁ ਦੁਖ ਖੂਹੁ ਹੈ ਓਥੈ ਪਕੜਿ ਓਹੁ ਢੋਇਆ ॥ He is caught and thrown into the most horrible hell, the well of pain and suffering. ਕੂਕ ਪੁਕਾਰ ਕੋ ਨ ਸੁਣੇ ਓਹੁ ਅਉਖਾ ਹੋਇ ਹੋਇ ਰੋਇਆ ॥ No one listens to his shrieks and cries; he cries out in pain and misery. ਓਨਿ ਹਲਤੁ ਪਲਤੁ ਸਭੁ ਗਵਾਇਆ ਲਾਹਾ ਮੂਲੁ ਸਭੁ ਖੋਇਆ ॥ He totally loses this world and the next; he has lost all of his investment and profit. ਓਹੁ ਤੇਲੀ ਸੰਦਾ ਬਲਦੁ ਕਰਿ ਨਿਤ ਭਲਕੇ ਉਠਿ ਪ੍ਰਭਿ ਜੋਇਆ ॥ He is like the ox at the oil-press; each morning when he rises, God places the yoke upon him. However, there is the possibility of redemption: ਜੇ ਗੁਰ ਕੀ ਸਰਣੀ ਫਿਰਿ ਓਹੁ ਆਵੈ ਤਾ ਪਿਛਲੇ ਅਉਗਣ ਬਖਸਿ ਲਇਆ ॥ But if he should come again to the Sanctuary of the Guru, then even his past sins shall be forgiven. ਗਉੜੀ ਵਾਰ¹ (ਮਃ ੪) (੧੩) ਸ. (੪) ੨:੮ - ਗੁਰੂ ਗ੍ਰੰਥ ਸਾਹਿਬ : ਅੰਗ ੩੦੭ ਪੰ. ੯ p307 So, yes, I think that Sikhism does envision the kind of thing you're talking about (temporary punishment leading to cleansing and then forgiveness).
  3. Questions from an ignorant manmukh, vol.1

    Welcome. I would like to ask: 1. Why would it bother you if there were a hell? 2. Do you think people should or should not receive punishment for their deeds? 3. If yes (or even if no), do you think Adolf Hitler should receive residence in paradise in exchange for killing 11 million people? 4. What was the exact passage from Macauliffe's book?
  4. Instead of just posting some links and expecting hundreds of different readers of your post to click through and trawl for the data, why not just post it in the first place? Anyway: % of Muslim prisoners: 16.7% (154 prisoners) % of Muslim in B'ham: 21.85% % of Sikh prisoners: 3.3% (30 prisoners) % of Sikh in B'ham: 3.02%
  5. What does Sikhi say on slavery ?

    Right. I mean the Janam Sakhi that you have that refers to the episode.
  6. What does Sikhi say on slavery ?

    "yes" as in you agree with me, or you don't? The article states that Keturah was the 2nd wife of Abraham after Sarah died, as stated in the Bible. Why do you say " it is clear that she is not the mother of Ishmael" when the article you posted says: "There is no explanation of Keturah’s lineage. Some suggest that she was Hagar. Others say that she was a different woman entirely." ?
  7. What does Sikhi say on slavery ?

    Yet another episode from outside Gurbani, highlighting the importance of sources other than Gurbani for Sikhi.
  8. What does Sikhi say on slavery ?

    ਸਭ ਮਹਿ ਰਵਿ ਰਹਿਆ ਪ੍ਰਭੁ ਏਕੈ ਪੇਖਿ ਪੇਖਿ ਨਾਨਕ ਬਿਗਸਾਈ ॥੩॥੮॥ Sabh Mehi Rav Rehiaa Prabh Eaekai Paekh Paekh Naanak Bigasaaee ||3||8|| The One God is pervading in all. Gazing upon Him, beholding Him, Nanak blossoms forth in happiness. ||3||8|| ਕਾਨੜਾ (ਮਃ ੫) (੮) ੩:੧ - ਗੁਰੂ ਗ੍ਰੰਥ ਸਾਹਿਬ : ਅੰਗ ੧੨੯੯ ਪੰ. ੧੫ Raag Kaanrhaa Guru Arjan Dev, p1299 By contrast, the Prophet of Arabia beheld the beauty of war booty Safiyyah (an extremely beautiful Jewish girl), and "married" her after killing her husband and father! A slight and tangential disagreement on an otherwise good post: AFAIK, Hagar was not Abraham's slave. She was his wife Sarah's maidservant (employee). He is not considered an adulterer because he went into Hagar with Sarah's blessing. And from all accounts (including from her descendants), she was up for it. If you want to call the Prophet Abraham a rapist because Hagar was a slave, you can make that argument, but I've never heard anyone call him an adulterer.
  9. What does Sikhi say on slavery ?

    Is this in the Janam Sakhi? Can you post it?
  10. What does Sikhi say on slavery ?

    Good of you to bring up this episode. It shows that putting the women of a enemy (defeated or not) into sexual slavery, as allowed in the Koran, is not allowed in Sikhism. Yet, this episode is not recorded in Guru Granth Sahib, and this fact underlines the importance of sources outside Gurbani for Sikhism. Those Sikhs who mistakenly think that Sikhi consists of Guru Granth Sahib and only Guru Granth Sahib ji are asked to re-evaluate their position. (I'm not saying you believe this.) Could you post the relevant texts from these sources? Thanks. Agreed. Any Sikh who is accord with historic Sikhism as passed onto us by our Gurus and preserved through the years orally and in our history would never think to enslave another human being. Could you post a few if you have them handy? Again, these are sources outside of Gurbani, but that's OK, because Guru Sahib asked us to listen to these outside sources (with discernment, of course): ਬਾਬਾਣੀਆ ਕਹਾਣੀਆ ਪੁਤ ਸਪੁਤ ਕਰੇਨਿ ॥ “The stories of one’s ancestors make the children good children.” (Ang 951) and ਸੁਣਿ ਸਾਖੀ ਮਨ ਜਪਿ ਪਿਆਰ ॥ Listen to the stories of the devotees, O my mind, and meditate with love. ਬਸੰਤੁ (ਮਃ ੫) ਅਸਟ. (੧) ੧:੧ - ਗੁਰੂ ਗ੍ਰੰਥ ਸਾਹਿਬ : ਅੰਗ ੧੧੯੨ ਪੰ. ੩ Raag Basant Guru Arjan Dev, p 1192 (The Sakhis listed are those of "non-Sikhs".) Another great quote from outside of Gurbani.
  11. Well, if you can learn Urdu, you should be able to easily learn Gurmukhi. The reason is that Urdu is a square peg fitted into a round hole. I.e., the Urdu (Arabic) alphabet was created for Arabic, not Punjabi. By contrast, Gurmukhi was specially created for Punjabi, and it includes vowel marks, too. For the most part (once you learn some simple rules), you speak words as they are written.
  12. What does Sikhi say on slavery ?

    All highly appreciated, all basically contributing to a feeling of brotherhood and equality, yet also again not mentioning nor prohibiting (and also not allowing) slavery explicitly. This is not a problem, however, as long as we don't ditch Sikh history. The moment we do so, however, we will run into problems. What if someone came up to you (Sikh or non-Sikh) and said (similar to what some nutcases say about homosexuality) that Gurbani is "silent" on slavery and therefore, you can choose to keep a slave or not keep a slave, it's your personal preference and no one should question or judge a Sikh who keeps a slave? Well, you might say that "That's ridiculous. No Guru and no Sikh ever kept a slave, so therefore neither can we." The reason you can make that statement is that it's manifest from history (Suraj Prakash and janamsakhis). But once we say "We're only going to accept Guru Granth Sahib and nothing else" you run into trouble real fast.
  13. What does Sikhi say on slavery ?

    Well, like I said, the religion doesn't allow it, but people do what they want. So, yeah, someone gets mad at their husband/wife, and goes away. And then files for divorce in the government court. If you believe in the "Sikh panchayat" and actually go to them, they'll just tell you to reconcile, and possibly also counsel the party who is being unreasonable.
  14. 1. Go to a target range (which are, of course, located in rural areas) to have fun shooting. 2. Go hunting (of course, in a rural area, there's no wildlife in suburbs or cities) 3. Buy a farm/ranch. Otherwise, keep a weapon of some sort for home defense.
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