DailyMail

HSD is correct - both "Madam" and "copper" were indian nationals. The men who use these prostitutes were said to be foji's - her words not mine. It is far, far worse in Southall than Ilford. Most of the women in Southall are "students" from Punjab, soliciting on the Broadway at midnight. Those who live and work in Southall often tell me it is the foji's who use them. It's terrible. It is no wonder than the overall majority of people who report these foji's and fojans to the UK Border Agency are British Sikhs - something Harjap mentions often on his show. It isn't because they have some lifelong hatred of people from India. It's because they want to put a stop to all the "gand and bakwaas" that these people have bought with them and established in well-established desi communities here in England. However, what these well-settled complainers also need to appreciate, is that the foji's are being exploited by them as well. "Beds with sheds"- British punjabi's charging the foji's extortionate rates. Some of these foji's have helped pay off the mortgage of these type of people who are complaining to the UKBA. Sad. 10 years ago, how many Sikh girls prostituted themselves in Southall? Along come the "students" and we can't so much as sneeze without catching chalmydia in Southall. Coupled with the lethal cocktail of foji's, with their "maa-bhen" diyan gallaan and 'underworld lifestlye', it is no wonder that they are exploiting eachother. The solution to this problem, in true Daily Mail style (!), would be a wholesale removal of all the students who don't attend college and deport all overstayers and foji's. Well, we can all dream can't we.... There was a time when anakh meant something. It is what we lived and died for. Not anymore.

Hammertime007, Nihal is simply facilitating the discussion. It was the callers (nearly all pakistani men) who were saying those things. Not Nihal. Afterall, it isn't Nihals fault if the Sikh dont call in and give the other side or truth as it were. He is chairing the discussion and therefore can not take sides. I know Nihal reads these forums and if you're reading Nihal, I would welcome it if you were to revisit this topic on your live call-in discussions given the arrests and the pakistani men being charged. Surely, without doing so you've simply only allowed one side of the discussion to be given airtime.

Congratulations to those Singhs who have risked their own livelihoods to avenge this rape. One wonders, had they not done what they did, would we have ever known about this heinous crime? Would these pakistani muslims have been arrested, let alone charged? Afterall, it was only last week that Nihal was discussing this and the general theme that emerged from that discussion (the majority of the callers were pakistani muslim) was "it's simply a rumour" and "Sikh men have a habit of violence" as well as "when will Sikh men accept that their women prefer us over them?". Within 7 days, 5 pakistani men arrested and charged with one 15 yr old pending further enquiries. 21 sexual offences. Not bad considering only last week it "was only a rumour". Yes, I agree this is the tip of the ice berg. Yes, many more crimes have been committed against Sikh women from pakistani muslims. Yes, when questioned on discussion programmes by commentators like Nihal, we the Sikh community fail to convey how/where/why this occurs. That doesn't mean it doesn't occur! This should serve as a catalyst to other Sikh women to also come forward. It is on record that some Imam's have been commiting paedophiliac and sexual acts towards children in mosques for three decades in the Lancashire, Greater Manchester, West Yorkshire and West and East Midlands regions. It is on record that younger pakistani muslim men have been grooming non-pakistani, non-muslim women in the north of England (and currently a trial is ongoing in Oxfordshire) for several years also. Pakistani muslims have an inherent sick disorder of sexual repression and a disproportionate and alarming practice of sexual exploitation concerning vulnerable young women outside of their community.

It was pure bezhti. Sikhs exploiting Sikhs. From brothels to smuggling criminals across the EU, injecting drugs in garages to time spent in prison for stabbings, apnay bandey are at the forefront. So much so, that the BBC felt it warranted an investigation. Nevermind, lets all sing "Saddi rees kaun karloo, sanu rabb ne banaiya maharaje" & "Punjabia di torr vakhri" - yes it is 'vakhri'. We all saw that for ourselves. I've always known it was bad. But now I'm lost for words.

He'll soon be on Strictly Come Dancing.... :stupidme:

He's had his own show for 5 years or so! I think since 2007. One is a immigration show (fridays) and the other one (on Mondays) is for any community-based topic which changes every week. Informative stuff!

You may be onto something here WLS.....guess where he is appearing on tonight?! Harjap Bhangal's show on MATV! Lol!

All scientific journals indicate that circumcison amongst american men has substantially reduced in the past two decades. It has been traditionally pushed by the military on the grounds of "hygiene". However, it is no longer the case that all american men are circumcised. With regards to Sikh americans, I would be surprised if they were circumcised, but I have no information.

"If you could, I'm sure you would blame the Great Fire of London on jatts" - no need to get so melodramatic! :lol2: There are no inferiority complexes here WLS. I'm well aware that all groups tend to discriminate against eachother to some degree. But my points were specifically about jats demanding OBC status. Whilst I'm sure jats have been demanding this for some time, they are on record for mocking others who are defined in such categories, whether you admit it or not.One only has to look at what singh1986 has said above me. Now that he has said it, you are accusing him of lying! I can understand you not agreeing with me, but if a fellow jat is saying it, surely you can't accuse him of having a "inferiority complex or misguided prejudice"? Now, that would be silly wouldn't it old chap? I'm a julaha with a family that originates from Hoshiarpur. To my knowledge, julahe have never built separate gurdwarae. Whats why I don't agree with those that have i.e. ramgharia, chamar etc. We seemed to integrate with and get on with other sikhs, including jats, maybe more so than other non-jats have with jats. Thats just an observation. But when mazbhis are treated as they are in the video above, I can see why some sikhs establish their own gurdwarae. Like you say, jats a numerical majority, and non-jats probably feel their voice will not be heard or shaheeds from their community are not commemorated maybe? I certainly recall a conversation once when one SIkh said to another that had it not been for ramgharia gurdwarae, we wouldn't have known about Maharaja Jassa Singh's history or commemorate it?! How much truth there is to that, I don't know. But the point is, smaller communities probably establish their gurdwara for fear of being "drowned out" as it were. Like I say, despite this, julahe haven't done so and so maybe other factors come into play?

Sherdil, Ok, I've gone back to re-read your post Sherdil. I admit, I initially did read it as your grandparents. Like you have already clarified, your grandparents were merely saying that "other jat folks did it", not themselves, so I apologise for saying it was another poster on here (although I didn't mention your name). However, I should have read it carefully, and fair is fair, I read it incorrectly. Sorry. However, it doesn't actually detract from the very fact that it happens/happened, as you yourself acknowledged, which is the underlying point being made. Furthermore, I stand by everything else I said in the above post. You say blame brahmins? Every brahmin I speak to is amused that a group of people who mock hinduism for establishing the caste system now practise it themselves and infact, those same brahmins struggle to recall a bollywood song bigging up brahimins yet songs 'bigging up jats' roll off their tongues as if it was saliva ten to the dozen. Can you see why even brahmins are now frustrated that they are still getting the blame? And even more bizarrely, whilst even they acknowledge that they are pioneers of the dreaded caste-system, even they (brahmins) are mystified why their ideology is mostly strongly propogated by those aren't even hindu! Caste-based gurdwarae are wrong. But why did they spring up? Theres no point saying they are wrong, I mean so is cancer, but it still happens...why? What is the underlying reason? Maybe the youtube video showing the disgraceful treatment the mazhbis's receive will give some insight into why they would prefer to be treated with diginity and respect. If they, and others, feel the only way to achieve this is to set up a seperate gurdwara, then what am I to say to him? "No, you can't establish your own (insert any non-jatt caste name here) gurdwara, but you must continue to be treated as a second-class Sikh in a "one-for-all" gurdwara?". Two wrongs don't make a right. I don't agree with caste-based gurdwarae, nor do I attend one, but I know why they exist. It's nice for you to say "fix yourselves first". Very nice indeed. But when the majority community are refusing to give up the caste-based prejudices, what chance has the guy from a 'smaller community'? Let me give you a clear example: when a guy asked what my surname was, I say "Singh", if he's jat he'll say "no, whats ur real surname? If you dont write it after ur name or u don't want to tell me, then it means you're not a jat and you're from a low-caste (his words) and therefore you're hiding something by not telling me what caste you're from!" Make no mistake, thats the mentality we are dealing with.

Racist? I call it as I see it. For the best part of the last 15 years, I have read article upon article stating that "jats aren't a caste, jats are a race", "jats were somehow born with greater powers or some make-belief elevated position in feudal society". As for any "insecurity complex clouding reading abilities?", only 2 weeks ago I read on another thread a poster from SikhSangat stated how his ancestors "phyisically abused" non-jats if the non-jat somehow "didn't do as they were told" as it were. Just look at the youtube videos, mazhbi's being asked to enter through a different door. It makes me sick. Plain ridiculous! On a scale of 1 to 10, how pathetic is this? 13, 19? There's no excuses, none absolutely whatsoever. Anti-jat? Anti-caste more like it. But because it is jats who have propogated this hindu-derived ideology more than any other group, it is jats who will feel the global backlash against it. And feel it they certainly will, rest assured. With regards to specifics about lower exams grades to enter university, guaranteed govt jobs, sarpanch, etc - I'm against 'postive discrimination'. Meritocracy is the way forward. Certainly, since 1948, reservation-based quota's have been used, and there was a reason for this, there was a time and a place for this and it was right at that time. However, I don't believe they should continue to exist. Open competition and merit-based entry into all govt jobs is the way forward. There should be financial support for ALL those individuals regardless of background from nursery level upwards. I recall in 2003, Kings College London opened a special scheme to allow students from "traditionally disadvantaged backgrounds in the local area (south London) to enter medical school.....with reduced entry-requirements compared to the rest of the intake. It mostly targetted at afro-caribbeans or students from single-parent familes. I was against that. I'm against it in the UK & I'm against it in India. WLS, I don't detest my children, mostly because I don't have any, but point being, if I did, I would firstly teach them how the guru's annhilated the caste system, how certain groups do their upmost best to revive it and to never look down/up at someone for being from a different background. Currently, what you have is a group of people who think of themselves so highly, lets pull no punches, they do think they are something special, and who are now literally commiting suicide or abusing drugs that they are fighting for OBC status. 30 years ago, if I called a jat "backward", I would have been verbally abused. Now, they are themselves fighting all the way to be called and classified as 'backward'. You just can't make this stuff up, honestly, you really can't.....

"...they have an ego and history of suppressing low castes". This is the biggest understatement of the 20th and 21st century combined! Jats have made a career out of mocking non-jats. This is despite the architects of the hindu caste-system continually reminding the jats that in their eyes, a jat is nothing more than a shudar. But all we heard for the last decade was "jat isn't part of that system, jat is a race not a caste". However, it apears the chickens have indeed come home to roost. Dear oh dear, what a milestone this is indeed. Or is it? Afterall, the this link ( http://sikhsangat.org/2013/jat-sikhs-seek-obc-status-in-punjab/ ) merely tells us what we have known all along: a jat is a shudar. The only thing that is new is that.....jats have finally accepted it. Everyone else had known this since the beginning of time. Afterall all the 'huffing and puffing', this is what it has come to.

"At this point, it is perfectly reasonable to remind oneself that of the 5 cities 4 are full of circumcised men and 1 is not. Is it just a co-incidence that it is just one city without circumcision that has the AIDS problem?" From a purely scientific point of view, that would be regarded as at best, anecdotal evidence and at worst, speculation . A randomised-controlled trial (RCT) is the 'gold standard' of medical studies. One could argue that with the other 4 cities being of very strict Islamic persuasion it is possible that despite the junkies shooting up, they at least using protection whilst having intercourse whereas in Amritsar it is a more liberal free-for-all society and barrier methods are not being used? Or maybe Amritsar is the only city that is not providing new clean syringes? Often, if a city or a given area has an 'ankowledged' drug problem, a "drop-in centre" will exist which at least provides clean needles etc. Public health officials are aware this will not solve the drugs epidemic in their cities but they at least don't want to be responsible for the spread of new diseases. Having said that, I would be surprised if such "drop-in" centres exist in the other 4 cities either, but who knows? Frankly, I don't know what the answer is. Further studies are required to answer that question.

It is a medical myth that circumcision can prevent HIV or any other disease. Any benefits that have been found from studies, which have mostly been carried out in Africa with biased authors, show a negligible difference that isn't statistically significant. The prevelence of penile cancer is very slightly lower in circumcised men v uncircumcised men. Routine circumcision is not the best way to go about reducing it just as routine double mastectomy (in women are have finished with breast feeding) isn't the best way to reduce breast cancer. One of the main causes of penile cancer, human papilloma virus (HPV), which also causes genital warts, is more common in circumcised men as well. Going back to HIV, most studies have concentrated on Kenya, Uganda and South Africa but these studies were NOT randomised-controlled trials and the sample size and sample group were heavily biased. When the World Health Organisation (WHO) investigated, they instructed leading public health specialists in the USA, a country where most men are traditionally circumcised (not anymore however) and the findings of this randomised-controlled trial published in The Lancet, were that circumcising men did not reduce HIV transmission. http://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6736(09)60998-3/abstract

I came across this randomly. I'm surprised it's taken this long for such a song/message to go out....good effort! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CPhBrvPlsgI

WLS, "I think you've got psychiatric issues Daily Mail". You were the same person who managed to determine that the rape victim was drunk, despite being 5,000 miles away, with no evidence whatsoever. With diagnoses like that, I don't think I have anything to worry about. Nitwits indeed old chap! You've gone to great lengths to distance yourselve from India, but like it or not, it is a country that the public associate you with. You say your "family has never been Indian and never will" - where is your wife from again? I distinctly remember you saying you had an arranged marriage back in Punjab. Am I wrong? You want to talk about philisophical and spiritual understanding of the merits or de-merits of whether our actions determine what happen to us? Clearly, what goes around comes around. But this 'tree-hugging, left-wing obsession of the victim blaming herself' notion doesn't wash with me, let me assure you old chap. I've seen domestic violence cases where the women blames herself for being smacked about, its pathetic. Lets call a spade a spade, then your on my level. I'm not the most spiritual of persons, more of a politcal activist type, so forgive me WLS, but leave the tree-hugging to someone else. It doesn't suit you either! WLS, you say that your "culture is complete and utter 100% gender equality". Here is a report published today from the BBC, with nothing new, but very sobering to read. Punjab has the 'highest proportion of missing girls at birth'. http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-20938125 No other state can match Punjab. I don't want to digress and go off on a tangent, and this isn't solely aimed at you either WLS. But the above BBC article highlights what one woman responded to when questioned by a Sky news reporter last week at a demonstration in Delhi. When the reporter asked her the underlying problem the woman replied: "how can we (indian women) expect men and sociey to respect women when us women ourselves abort foetuses upon discovering that they are baby girls?". According to the above article, no where is this more apparent that Punjab. Our punjabi culture is somewhat inherently perverse, it favours men over women, we all know it. It manifests itself in different ways. The truth hurts. We can all duck out heads in the sand and claim to be British by 3 generations etc. The fact is, when we (Punjab) have the biggest gender inequality gap in the whole of India, given that approximately 65% of Punjab is Sikh, therefore how on earth can we tell others that "my culture is complete and utter 100% gender equality"? Theory may dictate one thing, but life at the coalface is an entirely different matter... WLS, you're an intelligent chap. Unlike some others on here, I actually enjoy your posts, even though I don't always agree with you. What a boring place it would be if we all agreed with one another!

WLS, You've missed the point, and a seismic point it was indeed. I remember reading through your posts and replies a few years ago, and I tend to agree with you in the broad thrust of principle on many (not all) topics. However, this rape in India has highlighted malignant flaws in Indian society that can't be corrected with legislation (for those calling for tougher laws) and it can't be assessed through generally accepted "social norms" - because those very "social norms" are flawed. You claim that she was out at the 'wrong time of day' and those men and women who follow such "social norms" are asking for trouble, as it were. I can see the point that you are trying to make - what I'm saying, is that we shouldnt make that point. That may not make sense. Let me try... Indian society is very male dominated, as is the middle-east. There are youtube videos posted in the past 2 years of female CNN reporters being sexually abused whilst reporting the Arab Spring from Cairo. Do you know what the response from certain sectors of male muslim society was? She shouldn't have been there! What was she doing presenting amongst men? The attitude was incorrect - certainly from a western perspective, and I would argue from any perspective. But - from Imams quoted to the Daily Mail and other media, "she was basically asking for it". As perverse as it may seem to westerners, Arabs (and in the Delhi rape case, Indian men) have been conditioned to accept that that is simply the 'way it is'. India has a long history of using rape as a weapon - again, socially accepted in India or Pakistan, but derogatory behaviour from any normal man's perspective. Be it caste politics in the pind, be it "settling old scores between families", "teaching someone a lesson" etc. It stems from a culture which is just plain perverse. But, it's been historically accepted as a social norm, albeit quietly. Indian society simply doesn't respect a woman for who she is. In the example of this woman Jyoti, had her parents allowed her to go out alone, single, on the streets of Delhi, and she suffered abuse etc then we would all be saying "she shouldn't have travelled alone, should have travelled with friends or family". Here we have a girl who was travelling with her male friend and this still occured! There is something inherently wrong with indian men. Was she scantliy clad? No. Tipsy and therefore disinhibited? No. Gallivanting in a bar/club? No, she watched a film. You say you "went to bed early to rise early" and to those who don't, well, they shouldn't be surprised if they were to fall victim as it were. In London and many British cities, tipsy, scanitly clad women roll out of clubs and bars and walk home - not even with a male companion! Guess what - they don't get raped. My point is, is that social norms are different. Today, in India, a dynamic debate is taking place. Difficult questions are being asked. Indians are asking themselves - how, why, what for?

Hang on a minute - who said she was drunk? Where is the source for that? WLS - did u pop over to Delhi and breathalyse her and pop back to West London with the results that the entire world's media failed to pick up on? This is a trial not of 5 or 6 men. This is India on trial. Indian attitudes towards women are on trial. Only a few days ago there was an article on the BBC website asking "why does India treat it's women so badly?" http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-india-20863860 When we have individuals on here blaming the woman, questioning whether she shoulders a degree of responsibilty, one has to take a deep breath and truely reflect on how much work India and Indians need to do to catch up with the rest of us. Drunk or not drunk, mini-skirt or salwaar kameez, man or woman, adult or child - no one deserves to be raped and no one except the rapist deserves punishment. (Keep in mind, so-called "higher castes" have been raping so-called "lower castes" in rural india from the beginning of time. I don't think those women were wearing mini-skirts or drunk). When you have a society that raises it's sons' as "kings who are walking on water", people who by some default setting, "can do no wrong" and women who, if they so much as even caught within a shadow of an unrelated man then "she's pretty much asking to be raped", then it is no wonder that India, and Indians (like some on this site) have become an international laughing stock. The world watches and waits....

Yes, these shows are based solely on "looks". A hairdresser from Liverpool or a beautician from Newcastle isn't interested in anything else!

Even one the the girls said from the outset, "it takes confidence to come on and wear a red turban and white glasses". Yes, it does take guts. But he should have been prepared for the comments! On the otherhand, I agree with Chatanga when he said: "The thing is with turbans and beards,(henceforths T+B) if Sikh girls born to Sardar fathers still find Sardar boys unsuitable because of their t+b what chance do these boys have with non Sikh girls on an instant attraction basis?" I think he is clearly eccentric. But, psychologists constantly tell us that women are attracted to confident men, those who aren't afraid to make prats of themselves (don't take themselves too seriously).Therefore, I can see his logic.....

I agree Hazoor. I'm rather surprised that of all places, it is on Sikhsangat I have read material that wouldn't look out of place on a hindu forum. Might as well call it hindusangat. What should have been celebrated by all "anti-caste loving Sikhs" (i.e. all Sikhs), something as logical as it was, has turned into a 8 page diatribe. Say what you want, but one thing is for sure, the score is: Bobby Friction/anti-caste 1 - Pro-caste/anti-Sikh 0

"It's like when anything good is done by apnay we run to label it 'Sikh' when apnay do gundh like this we slyly start trying to shake off responsibility by making it a 'Panjabi' or 'Indian' issue". Very good point. I know this isn't the topic in hand at the moment, but I noticed this last week when the Sikh Channel were discussing "Sikhs with alcohol issues". One panel member interrupted and said "Sikhs dont drink, these guys are just punjabi's with a sikh background" - or words to that effect! I thought it was very comical to be honest. Sikhs have a huge alcohol dependency problem, but to brush it off as "these guys aren't Sikh, so we'll happily wash our hands off the problem" certainly isn't even beginning to ackowledge to resolve the problem.

Exactly, kanjar khanna was mentioned on the first page of this thread! It's come full circle now!

Johnny, My father says the same as you!

Maybe it's a symptom of the underlying issues the Sikh Channel has with the Sikh Fed rather than anything else? Even if that is the case, the Sikh Channel should put those issues to the side and advertise this forthcoming programme.