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Not2Cool2Argue

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  1. Loss of connectivity for Sikhs

    Omg thank you for making this topic. It lets me think and write abt alot of thoughts ive had over the years. And best of all this related to a sakhi i heard and it shoeed me the importance of it!! First of all, the encounter with the musical instruments shop. I think the difference is between western and indian mentality. Indians like to negotiate, and have nepotism. Which is when u treat ur relatives/or ur communith better than or differently than other people. We in the west have been taught, negotiating is wrong as it shows one being greedy and cheap. And that nepotism/discrimination is wrong. That we all want to be treated equally. Like i would feel uncomfortable in a muslim shop if the muslims were treated perferentially. Also you asked for a discount cuz the instrument didnt have enough accessories. That i think the shopkeepers assistant should have listened to. But because he is an assistant. Sometimes its not in his hand. His boss will get mad. Also its a sikh shop. All his customers are sikh so he cant give discounts to everybody. One reason, things were better in ur days could be cuz sikhs were a minority and faced hardships. Which brings ppl together. The fruit shopkeeper, gave u a discount or free oranges. That is his dasvandh not yours. Like if he sells u something cheaper. That means hes gonna get some phal/reward. Tho when u told the book lady ur story, she gave u a discount. I think when u tell ppl ur story, they r more likely to connect with u and be kind. Instead of just asking for discounts. But still as a western born kid, i find it hard to give discounts unless i see that u cant afford something and u really need it. Like my dad he wants me to be a real estate agent and work for him. Selling his properties. But i dont want to work for him. He likes to cut corners, and not follow rules. He believes in nepotism, treating ppl differently. And i just cant do that. Living like that makes me stressed and on edge and it doesnt meah with my sikhi. I really admire our previous generation. They were able to make it through tough times by breaking laws and putting sikhi and moral values on hold. Im more of a wimp and cant do that. Like i dont think i could survive in poverty if it means an apartment complex that had smoking smells and suchamta issues. Or fake papers. Or any of the things our parents had to do. And how our parents knew every panjabi family. And invited them over. Now the sakhi: A sikh was going someplace and was told he should stop at this one shopkeeper sikhs house on the way. The traveler sikh lets call him makhan singh for clarity arrived at the shopkeepers shop. Lets call him Raam Singh. so Makhan singh introduced himself, raam singh made him confortable in the shop. He watched Raam Singh work. A rich farmer came in. He asked for flour. Raam singh poured it for him. Handed it over. Farmer paid him and left. Raam singh counted the money. Realized he had too much. Called out to the farmer who was leaving. Farmer said keep it and kept walking. Raam Singh ran after him and paid him back. Makhan singh questioned him and he quoted the pangti about prayia hak. That says one must not take anothers earnings/rights. Then makhan singh decided to buy things for his journey. He asked for butter. Raam singh said 5 rupees. Makhan singh tried to get him to lower the price, but Raam singh would not budge. Makhan singh thought what a greedy, miserly person. And paid the 5 rupees. At end of the day, they went home. And Raam Singh said, please I want to be hospitable. Let me know anything you desire and I will do that seva. Makhan singh thought wat a hypocrit, he couldnt even lower one rupee for a fellow sikh and now he is acting all holy. To embarass him, makhan singh said, i would like to take a bath in warm bucket of ghee/butter. He laughed to himself that, butter is expensive this guy will start making excuses now. To his surprise Raam Singh returned with a full bucket of melted butter. And one of hot water. And handed Makhan singh a towel. Makhan singh was speechless. He said, r u crazy, butter is so expensive and u want me to waste it. Raam singh said anything for my gurus sikh. Makan singh called him out. That in the shop u woukdnt even give me 1 rupee discount. And here u r ready to waste 100 ruppes worth of butter. Raam singh said oh that was business. This is sikhi. Plus i dont take another hak nor relinquisg my hak. Hak means rights/earnings. Also i do my utmost best in my business and in sikhi. Then u were talking to me as the business man, and i value and work hard for my business and my earnings so even 1 rupee i could not let slide. Now u r talking to.me as a sikh, and i value and work hard for sikhi, and even 100 rupees worth of butter is nothing for sikhi. I never understood this sakhi before. I could not understand Raam singh prespective abt work before. Now i kinda do. Be excellent in all u do. Dont shortchange urself. Respect ur job which has given u the ability to support ur family. And once u have given ur best in one field. You can give the same best/hardworking self to sikhi. Ofc the names r made up in the sakhi. And i forgot the exact sequence of things and dialogue but the essence is there. I think this is one of bhai veer singhs saakhis or i heard it in katha..
  2. Thats true most ppl do think it only happens to girls. I remember growing up, the girls in my family were never allowed to be at gurudwara alone or attend camps alone. Panjabi parents are smart. They dont trust any religious person. Theyve seen too many fakers in bana. But they do have a blind spot regarding boys and abuse. Another problem, I could see rising is family abuse. Most kids who are abused are abused by friends of the family. This has come out in Pakistani families and my pakistani friend said thats why her parents never let her go to a friends house. I think we need to take a multi pronged approach. #1 should be parents duty. Do not let ur kids hang out at the gurudwara or with babey alone. At least until kids are old enough to report abuse. Like at least 7 years old. There is a story on langar hall blog. About a boy abt 4 years old, his dad used to work at the gurudwara, seva after hours. Kid allowed to run around. Another kid called him to a van. It was a trap. A baba had forced that kid to call him. So the kid was abused and then used by the baba to trick other kids into that van. That kid was too young to he was not able to articulate what was going on,and could only say he didnt want to go to the gurudwara. That ofc didnt go to well with his dad. #2 kids have to be encouraged to tell. They have to be taught that not telling will make the abuse worse and protect abuser. That telling will not get them in trouble. Parents should encourage this. Like my parents used to tell us if anything bad happens, tell us first, we would rather hear it from u, then others. Also u get to tell us ur version before someone else twists it. #3. We should have camp workshops on this. I remember i used to hate the camp workshops on bullying and domestic violence as a kid, as they werent problems we faced in our community (i thought) and were boring. But this will help everyone know who to go to with problems like this. The workshop can be like SAS snakes in suits but named creepers in bana or something. We can say its kalyug, so u dont know when even a good person will be enticed to do bad. And highlight some of the cases that have happened. Emphasize that telling on these abusers is the right and noble thing to do. As its the only thing that will stop the abuse. Also emphasize that its not only girls targeted but more boys (as thats overlooked) #4 we need to highlight how the corrupt ppl r using bana as a shield. Like how celibacy is being misused by bisexual/gay sikhs. Like how ppl in india who want to come to america become babey just for the visa. Some of these things r obvious like the visa thing, but i feel like western born youth who get into sikhi, start trusting anyone in a bana. And then get disillusioned and start hating all amritdharis. So these things should be mentioned in that camp workshop. And maybe we can even have a place for bisexual/gay sikhs. To teach them kaam is kaam. Heterosexuals also need to control their kaam in aikhis so its no just them, so..Idk this ones complicated. The mormons have tried it. Theres was a TV show now on youtube called 'My husbands not Gay'
  3. State of the UK - Is it safe?

    The arguements by most ppl on this forum are the same ones as conservatives whites in the USA. That crime is up do to black ppl and their rap music and fatherless homes due to welfare. They do have a point. BUT its not the whole story. In america, the group to receive the most welfare is actually white women. And this can be seen culturally. As their children are poor white males are increasing who are addicted to drugs and commit violent crime. Also most ppl said blacks were the most violent. But most school shootings have been white males. Including the recent bomber. Yes black ppl do have a crime culture. But its mostly related to black on black crime, occurs in inner cities. Now that drugs are being used by other minorites and whites that crime has spilled onto more areas. Yes black ppl alao have a culture problem where they glorify drugs and violence. But thats been going on for a long time. Also anytime ppl r suppressed, they r given drugs. Look at panjab. And in the usa, it has been proven that CIA introduced cocaine into black communities. I think most of the issues are due to having a fatherless society. This was most common in black socities. But it is now the norm in most poor neighborhoods. And so it isnt that black ppl r infecting others. Its more that society is degenerating into conditions like black society. Like fatherlessness. And black ppl had every reason to do so. But whats the reason for whites and other races to become so corrupt? Recent research in the USA shows that even black kids born to rich families will become poor and fall into the lowest classes. And low working class blacks rarely rose out of their class. Whike whitw males did. But black females have the same upward rise as white females. And the research found the trend of black males spiraling downward was highest in some areas. And lowest in others. These areas with low downward spiral had upward rising black populations and had the most fathers in the families. This recent research has made headlines in the US.you guys can google it.
  4. Encouraging family life

    Welcome to.this forum! Youve been asking lots of interesting questions. For which im grateful as it livening up the forum. Also u ask questions that make us think deeply cuz weve just taken things for granted. The reason for being a householder started with Guru Nanak Dev Ji, the founder of the religion. That time is described as very dark and sad times. India was invaded by mughals who were pushing islam and taxing the population. The religious leaders had become corrupt. The ppl had no one to turn to for help. The legal system, the kings and nobility, the religious leaders were all out to fleece thw common man. And most ppl as happens in hard times were becoming hard hearted and cruel themselves. Guru Nanak Dev ji traveled and met with all ppl. Trying to make them not think of religious differences and which religion was superior but to connect to God and do good deeds. Guruji also went to the mountains and met the renunciates, the hermits, the yogis and the monks. Guruji asked them You guys r holy ppl. Good and godly ppl. Dont u see how the comman man is suffering. Help them. The yogis replied that if they had sense, they would leave the materialistic world and come meditate in the mountians. Guru ji asked and if all of them did come meditate in the mountains, where would u go to beg for ur food? Also guruji said, u go and ask food from them but you call them false. Stuck in mud and other bad names. And in their time of need, do not help them. Also all the good ppl of the world who have a thirst for God, come live in the mountains. Who is to lead the common ppl? Also dont be so scared of maya(materialism) that u run away from it. Thats not true renuncuation. True renunciation is having all the goods of the world, but being ready to share them and renunciate them when and if needed. If u hide from the world, how will u fight anger,pride, lust? You must live in the world, fight this battle daily and slowly but surely win. So after guruji had traveled all around the known world. Guruji made a community called Kartarpur. Where he farmed. And he showed ppl how to live a worldly life while meditating. And he taught ppl to form satsangs. Or gatherings where Gods praises were sung, ppl helped each other on spiritual and worldly matters. There was much resistance to this. That householders could be holy and meditate and progress spiritually. There are many sakhis/stories about it. Also guruji gave us a practice that fits around householder. Work from sunrise to sunset. Then we have meditations/prayers before sunrise and in the evening.
  5. Is God formless?

    You have quite a mish mash there. It says in christianity and maybe other abrahamic faiths that God created humans in his image. Sikhi does not say this. Sikhi says God is formless, yet he is also all forms. As in all of creation is God. So how can we say only humans r in Gods image? All of creation is God yet God is also seperate from creation. And God is also the jyot or the life light in all. Or the soul in all.
  6. Sikhi and dating

    U should be glad bhforce answered ur post and so detailed and thorougly too. Many other posters including me would have called u a troll and chased u off. Seriously? Dating maryada? Wat next? How to go eat at a bar ...rules?? Sikhi is not just abt rules or controlling every aspect of ur life. But in case u r genuine . There is no dating. We only have 2 martial states. Single or married. And the goal is to go from single to married without any hassle, without going out with a bunch of different ppl while u try them out to figure out wat u like wat u dont. Basically u look for a marriage partner. If ur parents or elders can help u fantastic. If they cant. Then u have to do all the hard work. Ive been taught there r 6 things that must match when getting married. 1. Age. Like no more than 5 year difference in my opinion. 2. Money status. If u grew up rich, u will have a hard time adjusting to living in a poor one. U wont know how to save or how to buy at thrift shops etc 3. Religion. 4. Health 5. Same language and culture 6. Ethnicity/nationality These 6 things plus watever things u might need. Then u have to find someone who fits this criteria. And then approach them and ask them to consider u for marriage.. See why having an elder person helps? If they agree to consider u for marriage. Then and only then can u meet up at public places or talk on social media. Its like u guys r engaged. After a few meetings. I would say 3. You guys decide if u guys r compatible. Then either a yes or no for marriage is given. Most western ppl worry abt love. And then spend their 20s 30s looking for the perfect one or the true love. Theres no such thing. Then in 35s they marry anyone who is left as they r running out of time.To be able to have a good marriage, u just need to get along. I mean u lived with ur parents and siblings without choosing them. And u manage. Both of u need to be responsible, mature adults with similar goals and values and u will have a nice marriage.
  7. what does it mean to become Amritdhari

    Good question. I think being an amritdhari means u are taking sikhi as ur religion and the guru as ur Satguru. So that means from now on u must follow all the rehits and hukams. And have the same purpose as ur fellow sikhs. And before taking any step in ur life. Ask ur guru for aagiya and advice. Also as an amritdhari, we r not only saint soldiers or but also monk householders. Grihsti sinaas. Which means while we do live in this world and earn a living that should not be our goal. To become rich to spoil our kids should not be our aim. We should be like buddhist monks. Who eat what is given. Wear simple clothes. Try and practice to control the thoughts. And any free time spent in solitude, in meditation, to find the reality of this world. It has now become a fashion to wear big turbans and then makeup or fashionable outfits. When our turbans and our hair were supposed to set us apart. Supposed to remind us not to fit into the world. Not to try to enjoy the world. To remind us we have a different purpose. A higher purpose. The world is only to be used to fulfill our basic needs not to occupy our complete attention. Or we were supposed to be kingly rebels. Baagi Baadshah. Which means we must be unique. Not only in our appearance but our thoughts and actions as well. Baadshah as in chardi kala and carefree while the world stresses abt tests, exams, money matters. Baagi that we stand with those overlooked. Be religious as the world turns toward atheism and inward spirituality only. Or Servant Saviors. Or wise, wahegurus warriors. Or warriors worshipoing the wonderous one. Sorry got carried a way by alliteration..
  8. Feel like leaving it all

    Deal with it as an emotion. We are sensible ppl. We shouldnt do things based on emotion. One day u will feel sad.another day happy. That doesnt mean u let the emotions control u or dictate ur life. Be sad. Be detached from the world. Feel like the world is useless. Is an illusion. But still do ur duty. Still do ur job. That is what Guru ji reccomends: to live and work in this world. But not to love it, not to get attached to it. To be happy that one day i will leave it behind and go to my true home. Do simran. And find out where is the true home. Do simran and try to see why this world makes u sad. Also read gurbani
  9. Forced Marriage

    Do let us know how the week turns out with them. People say when we have a common goal and fight together in the trenches. Thats when friendships r formed. So maybe when u guys try to settle in and try to run a household, it might work? But u have too many differences maybe? Like age, culture, personality, gender? Also u might consider asking the person who is just as involved in this as u are. Your wife. I know u dont want to hurt her feelings. But watever u decide, affects her alot. So a bit ruffled feelings might not matter, for the truth and knowing where she stands and her options. Maybe tell her that u r trying to get to know her now and to see if u guys get along. And say hypothetically, if we find out 2 weeks from now that we dont get along. Wat would be the best thing to do? And maybe there is an option #4. You can go with ur hat in hand or pagh in hand to the girl or to her family and say sorry i was forced into this. Or i changed my mind. Wat can i do to end this marriage as fast and as painlessly as possible for all? Or send a mediary/vichola to get divorce. So u dont have to face the anger and hysteria. And have the vichola suggest i will pay the wedding money back plus how much ever u think is suitable. BUT this will be hard. They might guilt trip u, beg u, threaten u, or be very angry and try to harm u or even threaten to take their own lives. If u decide to take this step. You will have to be very strong and not succumb to any pressure or threat that they might ask u why and then say the girl is young. She will mature. Etc Its a very hard option. Even if u pay them to their satisfaction. They will hate u. Are u sure, u cant make it with this girl? It will be hard to find a better one next time? How will u know if the next girl is compatible with u? Esp if u let ur parents choose
  10. Forced Marriage

    There are only 3 options left to you. #1 is really bad. I hope u dont do it. Abandon the girl. Leave a poor girl after marriage. Terrible. #2. Stay married. Live with girl. A bit hard but the right thing to do. #3 the best option now. Also one Gurjant Gnostic so eloquently argued for. Bring the girl to UK then divorce her. As the girl has told u on the phone, she cant wait to start her life in the UK. So let her have that life. Its the least u can do. Plus divorce is easier in the uk. If u try to divorce her in india, they could put a case on you of being an NRI who misled and abandoned his wife, and you would never be allowed in india. Or they could lie that you demanded dowry from them and put a case on you. I wouldnt blame them for wanting to get back at you. Cuz if u abandon the girl. Her life is ruined. So bring the girl over to the UK. Let her get citizenship. Let her bring her parents over. And then help her get a seperate house where she could live with her parents. You might have to support her financially and emotionally. I hope u do. We panjabis like to copy western culture but we just mishmash it. If we want to have divorce like westerners, we have to accept the responsibilities and laws that come with divorce. So bring the girl over. Ya its not a clean break and you wont be able to start over from scratch. But guess wat? Theres already a marriage record.so u wont ever have that clean slate again. Its better to have a guilt free clean mind. Rather than the stain and karma of abandoning a poor girl on ur soul. It would be even cooler if u got her married again in the UK...reminds me of the movie Meri wife da viaah.
  11. This is crazy. I dont think.the conservatives are gonna let ot go. Its like Clintons emails used by trump to disgrace her during the presidential elections or how the liberals are.using russia to bring trump down in the usa. Its so crazy sikhs are.caught in the middle. Probably a good thing tho. Tho i hope.sikhs dont become the hated successful minority like the jews are in the usa atleast among the conservatives
  12. You made really good points. RAW is still scared of sikhs and is determined not to let the 1980s happen again. It has been pointed out by some sants and gursikhs that RAW is even paying agents to be sikhs in heavily sikh populated areas. There is 1 agent in california who is sabat soorat and even his daughters wear dastaars. This makes sense as you may remember most of the enthusiasm, man power, and financial support for gadar came from the west. I dont think this was the case in 84 except maybe canada. So the indian govt is targeting where real threat is. During mughal times, another sikh had to vouch for u before u were allowed amrit and allowed into a jatha. And a sikh new that if someone they brought in betrayed the panth, it was on them. So caution was paramount. Bhai veer singh writes about codes and secret meetings at akal takhat. The sikh panth is too big and spread out to work like that now but what we can do is 1) totally abhor violence against another sikh. No matter the cause. And if someone does a crime worthy of punishment or death penalty such as beadbi etc, first the whole sikh panth must excommunicate him or her. Therefore any person who incites hatred or violence esp toward another sikh, will be revealed as an agent. But for this to work we must get thus memo out to the whole sikh community: 2) violence is not a justifiable means to use anymore. Esp not to solve ideological battles. Fight ideas with ideas, words with words. Also if someone want to use violence we can say only for certain crimes and specify them. Or at least 5 singhs hav to agree and do ardaas and get hukamnama to use violence. This mean that all sikhs should agree that 3) we will no longer try to get justice for 84 by killing the prepretators. Brar is so old, hes gonna die anyway. All it does is gives us bad publicity and puts our youth in jail. Tytler is living proof that indian govt is evil and supports the genocide masterminds. Lets let the indian gov deal with this visible reminder, taint and embarrasment. Lets keep using the court and press to denounce Tytler and remind all 84 isnt past. Also no more using violence to kill radhasoamis, other sects, anti dasam granth ppl. We fight these ppl through other more effective means. And i think sikh panth is strong enough to withstand their false attacks as long as we stop providing them with fuel. And it would be amazing if sikhs could practice the principle of free speech. That sikhs were allowed to express their doubts, dissident opinions, and even blashepemous content. Thus would allow other sikhs to teach them, argue with them, laugh at their absurd ideas, and hopefully even correct them. I mean sikhs were such a diverse group. From sevapanthis who abhor violence to nirmale who learnt at kaanshi to udasis who were similar to saadhus to nihangs to sikligars to shopkeeper sikh to farmer and nobles in court There was never the amount of discord we have now. Even the 1900s when there was so many sikh jathas emerging, sikhs turning athiests, communist. There was not this amount of division. Part of it does have to do with infiltration. And part cuz sikhs r ready to fight and jump at the slightest provacation. We must stop that Would do you guys think?
  13. First language of the Guru's

    Its not gidha its something else. Starts with a b. Or something
  14. First language of the Guru's

    There is a website by a sikh who claims guruji traveled to Rome and china. He says that guruji preached to Greek fishermen. Since the ottomon or pesian empire ruled most of the middle east, he says guruji was able to converse with all using persian. He lists the shabd yak araj guftam pesh as the persian one. I forget the website but u guys should take a look. He even had proof of guruji visiting Rome to warn the pope against slavery. But i dont remember wat language he says guru ji spoke. Not true. Even in some families now. The tradition of baata (riddles) and night time stories from the elders exist. Most kids used to look forward to that time of sharing stories and riddles. There were also the songs, i forget wat their called, that were sung at all occasions. Where old ladies sing at weddings wjthout instruments. And women had a tradition of meeting up to weave, and spin and of singing/talking whike doing charka etc. Not to mention maraasis who were like the local comedians, singers etc. Also my nani tells me. People esp.women never used to curse using bad words but used to be very creative. Like may u get a.noh and then she will show u ur place. May ur house be filled with workers, ( implying so u have no time to waste but have to make 50 rotis a day)
  15. Is this a white sikh

    He was obviously human.
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