DAVINDERSINGH

ਸੁਖਸਾਗਰਦੁਖਛਡਕੈਭਵਜਲਅੰਦਰਭੰਭਲਭੂਸੇ॥ ਲਹਿਰੀਂਨਾਲਪਛਾੜੀਅਨਿਹਉਮੈਅਗਨੀਅੰਦਰਲੂਸੈ॥ ਜਮਦਰਬੱਧੇਮਾਰੀਅਨਿਜਮਦੂਤਾਂਦੇਧੱਕੇਧੂਸੇ॥ ਗੋਇਲਵਾਸਾਚਾਰਦਿਨਨਾਉਂਧਰਾਇਨਈਸੇਮੂਸੇ॥ ਘਟਨਖੋਇਅਖਾਇੰਦਾਆਪੋਧਾਪੀਹੈਰਤਹੂਸੇ॥ ਸਾਇਰਦੇਮਰਜੀਵੜੇਕਰਨਮਜੂਰੀਖੇਚਲਖੂਸੇ॥ ਗੁਰਪੂਰੇਵਿਣਡਾਂਗਡੰਗੂਸੇ॥੧੩॥

waheguroo ji ka khalsa waheguroo ji ki fateh Kirtan will broadcast starting Friday morning. Friday Morning:.............................**:**am to 12:00pm Friday Evening:.............................6:00pm to 8:30pm Saturday Morning:.........................6:00am to 12:00pm Saturday Night Raensbayee:...........6:00pm to 6:00am(Sunday) We could not get an internet connection for Thursday Night at Khalsa Darbaar. Visit www.keertan.net/live for details. If you want any help in connecting to the streams visit http://www.sikhiunleashed.com waheguroo ji ka khalsa waheguroo ji ki fateh

This thread is shocking! I never thought I would ever read this kind of stuff on a "sikh" messageboard. You guys need to research what Guru Sahib says on this. If everyone here read gurbani, discussions like this would never arise. Read the 22 Vars specifically they truly open your eyes to gurmat. There are way too many examples in gurbani about amrit, which I won't list here; you have tools like sikhitothemax for that. I think this has been discussed here before too, do a search on it(wasn't this one of the new rules?). But seriously before you start typing away posts have you ever thought what the joyt of the 10 Gurus might be thinking of you? I know my post will not make any difference on some of the people that posted above but consider the following, I’m sure you have seen these lines before: SABBAT SOORAT RUB DEE BHANNAI BAEEMAN| Dharrai Kes Pahual bina BHEKHI MOORKH Sikh| PRATHAM Rehat(first discipline of a sikh) eah jan, Khanday kI pahual shakai(Become AmritDhari)| Soyee singh bhardhan, avar nah pauhal jo laye|

Vickey Singh could you please post the last part of the romanized punjabi into english, I have a very hard time reading this kind of punjabi. Thanks! -Davinder Singh

vwihgurU jI kw Kwlsw! vwihgurU jI kI &iqh!! There will be sehaj paath bhog and kirtan from 4:00pm to 8:30pm(tonight) at Khalsa School Surrey. If you are in the area make sure you attend! vwihgurU jI kw Kwlsw! vwihgurU jI kI &iqh!!

vwihgurU jI kw Kwlsw! vwihgurU jI kI &iqh!! Dassan Daas Jeeo, where have a said that bibbian are not equal. Having no bibbian in an amritsanchaar does not make them inferior, or does it somehow mean that automatically? Could you quote out of my posts where I have said bibbian are not equal to singhs. I just pointed out that gurbani does not address this equality issue and thats it. Gurbani only talks about having respect towards bibbian(in assa dee vaar) If you read my posts you'll see that I am for Bibbian's equality but just not for bibbian in the panj... vwihgurU jI kw Kwlsw! vwihgurU jI kI &iqh!!

vwihgurU jI kw Kwlsw! vwihgurU jI kI &iqh!! This post was meant to be posted right after Dassan Dass Jee, But I don’t have time to write and post it all then, so I'm posting it now… I dont think I wrote anything about women being lower than men. Nor do I think I wrote anything against bibbian not being equal. I was just trying to say that this issue of women being equal has never been raised and there is no mention of this anywhere in gurbani. I myself don't believe in this kind of thinking. Amrit is the great equalizer, whoever come to the fold of guru sahib’s Sikhi is protected and surkhroah in this life and the next. And this holds true for bibbian, as well as for people coming from “lower” castes. Again I haven’t said that bibbian are lower then men in any way. But just made a factual statement based on gurbani. I adamantly believe that bibbian should have equal rights because they deserve them, as Sikh. Kulpreet Singh I agree with your first point about Maryada fully. The second one, I think is weak, because Maryada is an aaddat(habit) too. How does Maryada start off? From thing X being done once. Then repeted a second time, then a third then again…….. When something is done enough times it’s accepted and becomes Maryada. All maryada are a result of an aaddat done many times. Maryada is Maryada because it is the right way to do something. When determining if something is maryada or not we should look at the various texts that we have and of course gurbani and other banis. Having 5 singhs in amritsanchaar i s mentioned in all historical texts, whereas there is nothing about bibbian. I am sure non sikh writers show this as well. There is no damage done to bibis’ equality if they are not represented in an amritsanchaar. And there is nothing gained in terms of equality if bibbian are in one. So why break the old tradition(maryada). Now reading Manjot Singh’s post, I remember that a singh from Bhai Sahib Bhai Randheer Singh’s time telling me once about an incident at a village in Rajasthan. He said that after the Jatha had spent a few days at a singh’s house in the village, people loved the kirtan so much that they wanted to join the jatha by taking amrit. On the insistence of the Singhs Bhai Sahib decided to take a bibi to comple the panj. Something happened before they were about to start stirring the khanda, and the Jatehdar stopped the amritsanchaar right there and did ardass to ask for forgiveness. Also when I got naam-dridh in 1992, there were not enough Rehitvaan Singhs in BC at the time and so a bibi was included, to be the granthi, NOT as one of the panj to prepare amrit. So these are the two times I can think of babbian being in amritsanchaar. We all love Baba Jarnail Singh Jee Khalsa, and I remember listening to a tape of his about 6-7 years ago and still remember what he said. He indeed said that then the fateh will have to be changed from khalsa and khalsee. Also he talked about how the saroop of the first 5 payarrai must be maintained at all costs. He was very direct in his wording about this. Maybe someone his this tape, I think it was tape #5* I don’t have that set now but if someone does, let us know. Most people have a hard time believing that the 5 should be sabat soorat(in complete form, without any disability) and yet this is not followed many times. For guru sahibs bakshash and kala to be there, the whole amritsanchaar smagam must be exactly followed as per panthic maryada. No Ms514 I don’t take offence to your post. You are right nowhere does gurmat does it say that women are inferior to men. Your first paragraph is very well put, and I agree with it fully. But I am not saying that Bibbbian cannot do sewa in the panj because they are inferior to men somehow, it was just that Sony Kaur’s line in the initial post about gurbani directly telling us that women and men are equal in sikhi caught my attention. I have read a few books just on sikh bibbian and don’t recall reading anything about bibbian doing amritsanchaar. Like Ms514 has said, sikh women were no doubt the most devout and chardikala women the human race has seen, others don’t even come close. No one other than the amritdhari bibbian could have done such astounding sakkai and unparalleled kurbani. Our panth is indeed living off their kamayee. I am not denying any of this; these are facts that will be with us till the end of time. And about the manjiian, I wasn’t sure if they had been given to bibbian, thank you for clearing that up. And Ms514, when I read your post, the pangati "iesujgmihpurKueykuhYhorsglInwirsbweI]" came to mind so you are right once again. Whatever we discuss here will not have any impact on the issue in the field for at least a decade. But once we grow up, it will have some meaning. I'am glad that this has been one of the most civilized and healthy discussions(that i have ever read/been in so far) SwbwSy! vwihgurU jI kw Kwlsw! vwihgurU jI kI &iqh!!

vwihgurU jI kw Kwlsw! vwihgurU jI kI &iqh!! I didn't want to sound all Talibanistic and militant about this issue but it seems that I have. When I wrote that post I didn’t want to put down babbian one bit. Dassan Daas and Gurpreet Singh, what I wrote was based on actual research and on bani. We can all agree on bani being supreme. Right? If so, then bani/rehitnammai should be the ultimate decider of this women’s equality debate. It’s surprising to know that gurbani makes absolutely no direct mention of equality for women. That sloak in Assa Dee Vaar DOES NOT say that women are equal. It just says that why call a women bad whom you befriend and who bring you into this world and from whom kings and great men are born. You guys should read the meanings in a tika or even sikhitothemax. I just read the sikhitothemax translation, there is no hint of equality on there. But I don’t think I said anywhere in my post that bibbian are inferior to singhs, as Bhain Sony Kaur is implying. All I said was that there is no mention of singhs and babbian being equal. Having said that, it’s foolish to think that since gurbani makes no mention of this that women are not equal to men. The only point that I tried to make was that there is no clarity on equality in gurbani and that’s it nothing else. But I doubt that having bibbian in the panj will solve all the equality problems facing women in sikhi. Let’s be logical here. How many granthis do you know that are women? I don’t know any and never seen any in 22 years. The thing is women have not tak en advantage of what sikhi has to offer. I have always been taught that men or women can do sewa as granthis. This is what respected community members tell people who make documentaries as well. But this is never practiced in the real world. When the panj are chosen I have never seen babbian get nominated. The truth is that babbian don’t want to be in the panj. However babbian are always there for naam dhridh for female paranayees. No one objects to that. Because the west makes such a deal about minority and womens rights women sikh women think that they should be equally represented in sikhi too. In the original thread I remember someone questioning the lavvan during anand kaaraj. How could we even think of this??? The Anand Sanskaar was given to us by the gurus!!!!!! Evey historian backs this up. I think its totally idiotic to think that this could be changed. Everyone was up in arms when some gurdwarray were not following the langar hukamnamaa, but when a WSO member’s daughter walked in front of the singh for 2 lavvan everyone stayed quiet. Talk about double standards. On a side note, I have never read about or heard of any pratan bibi that did kirtan sewa anywhere before the 20th century. The first known bibi-kirtaneeaya were the ones that did kirtan with Bhai Sahib Bhai Randheer Singh, at least from what I know. All the kirtaneeay of pratun times were singhs. Singhs like Bhai Mardana, Bhai Sata, Bhai Balwand, Bhai Dya Singh etc. If someone knows of someone please let us know. Singhs have always done kirtan at darbaar sahib since its inception. Now this maryada is going to be broken by Jagir Kaur. Darbbar Sahib has certain maryada for doing everything, which have been followed for 400 years. Maryada like singing basant raag shabads in the spring till holla mahlla, and only the singh sahib sitting down and doing chaur, 5 rumallay during sukhassan, the timing of first parkash etc. Singhs doing kirtan has also become maryada. We have already lost so muc h over the years in terms of the pratan maryada: like the use stringed instruments in kirtan and kirtan sung in true raags. The tradition of Singhs doing kirtan is also pratun and this should not be tempered with. If this is tempered then 10 years from now someone will come along and change other vital parts of the maryada. Lastly, however much connected and united it is because of the rahit maryada and amrit. If you take these two factors out of the equation, a sikh will have no significance whatsoever. Trying to chip away at the tried and tested 3-400 year old maryada is not wise... vwihgurU jI kw Kwlsw! vwihgurU jI kI &iqh!!

vwihgurU jI kw Kwlsw! vwihgurU jI kI &iqh!! Where are you from? if in Toronto contact saccha sauda or Gurdwara Tapoban Sahib. In the UK contact www.akj.org.uk. If you are in Vancouver/BC PM me. If you are in California contact someone like MKhalsa. I think there is a site called thebookthatchangedmylife.com or something that ship it anywhere. Not sure abou the address though. To read the book as Bhai Sahib had written you should read the Punjabi version otherwise the english one is always there. vwihgurU jI kw Kwlsw! vwihgurU jI kI &iqh!!

vwihgurU jI kw Kwlsw! vwihgurU jI kI &iqh!! Sikh women (and women in general), until recently, have been suppressed in every way imaginable around the world. I think that socially women should have equal opportunity without any discrimination just as most men have. But this is not the case, even in the west. I was reading in a magazine just last month that on average women make significantly less than what men make for the same position. So there really isn’t any total equality even in places that are considered to have the most advanced culture. Why hasn’t there ever been a female president in the US? Women still have a long way to go still. In a “desi” Punjabi household (don’t know about others) in Canada/US, the man runs everything and has a very easy life compared to the wife. The wife does as much as 3 times the work in many cases. The wife is often on the receiving end of abuse and beatings. Clearly there is no equality in Sikh/Punjabi homes today. When Guru Nanak Dev Jee came to this world he saw that women were treated inferior to men. Some were even killed when born. Guru sahib rose up and strongly opposed these practises. They gave women the respect that they deserved. Guru Sahib made women’s life actually worth living. Last year I was talking to some very Chardi Kala Singhs and I asked them if Bibbian should be allowed to do kirtan/sewa at Darbaar Sahib and panj payarrain de sewa at amrit sanchaars. They clearly told me that sikhi and the Guru’s for sure gave women a respectable status, but by no means equality. They asked me to do research on my own and see if I could find a single instance where they could be disproved. This may have sounded harsh but if you really think about this it’s true. The rehit maryada or sikh history nowhere talks about equality of men or women. So without this it could actually mean that when a Singh shows a Bibi “respect” it doesn’t necessarily does not mean that the Bibi is “equal,” she could possibly have a higher place then a singh as well. But there is no pangati in bani that says anything other than respecting women and not mistreating them. But i haven't found anything on womens equality anywhere in sikhi. I think that the whole equality argument can be thrown out the window! It just doesn’t make sense to fight over being the in the panj just for the sake of proving to be equal while doing 3 times the work at home. It doesn’t make sense. If you are out to prove that you are equal to men then you should have the power to be equal at all times and in all situations. I don’t know how doing sewa in an amritsanchaar makes one “equal.” More importantly being selected in the panj is not a small thing as most of us on this site seem to think. There is a lot riding on the 5 singhs. They are chosen to represent Akalpurkh himself. Amrit does not come as cheaply as it’s given these days. No wonder the kinds of miracles that used to happen at amritsanchaars 40 years ago don’t happen now. Having the wrong people in amritsanchaars is one of the reasons why the panth is not is chardi kala. There are some things in the panth today that need to be changed because they are not in line with gurmat sidhaant. But some things are foundations that this great panth is standing upon. Amrit sanchaar is perhaps the greatest even in ones life. And so it should not be altered one bit. Most of sikhi is based on sinna baseena tradition-from one generation to the next. If Bibbian were destined to be in an AmritSanchaar then, guru sahib WOULD HAVE forseen this and would have s pecifically mentioned that bibbian be in amritsanchaars. And if that was acceptable, then over the years of recorded ithaas there would have been some writings that tell us of babbian doing sewa in the panj. Why would you change something that has been preformed for over 300 years? I never see anyone complain about dhaggai/tweet/kumb/narial/joyt and other anti-gurmat stuff like that, which some consider to be maryada as well. So lets be a little thoughtful. I don’t know why babbian make a big deal out of this every few weeks. The babbian that read this, sorry to be so harsh, but, do u guys actually fit the qualifications of being a panj? I have seen a few brahmgiani-bibbian and they don’t spend their time on the internet but are busy doing abhayas, paath and kirtan all day. I have never seen them ask for “equal rights” for themselves and to do sewa in the panj. Sure if your awastha is up there then you can discuss this. Don’t get me wrong, I don’t think I will ever be ready to be in the panj because I lack everything needed to do this sewa. Perhaps you babbian can tell everyone why you/babbian should be in the panj payarrai?(other than proving equality) I can’t think of any, maybe because im a singh. But honestly I don’t think it matters where a person is doing sewa in an amritsanchaar or not. Amritsanchaar is not some publicity stunt that everyone wants to take part in. Finally these things are just an impediment to spiritual progress. I had a day off today and just wasted many hours debating this issue. This post came out in the end, which you guys could do without. Gurbani says that the khoojee progresses by meditating oh naam and the debater is destroyed through debate(not doing simran) all these debates are useless! No one learns anything, they’re just used to pass time. The collective effort that we spend on reading and responding to debates such as this adds up to a enormous amount of time and energy. We would all become brahmgianis if that could be spent properly. r> By the way I am all for womens equality, but I just think tradition and the 300 year old maryada comes before anything else. I wrote a 6 page essay highlighting Mata Bhaag Kaur Jee a few years ago and even got $500 for it :umm: vwihgurU jI kw Kwlsw! vwihgurU jI kI &iqh!!

vwihgurU jI kw Kwlsw! vwihgurU jI kI &iqh!! I am surprised no one mentioned: Japnaam Singh's Blog it won best new blog for 2004. vwihgurU jI kw Kwlsw! vwihgurU jI kI &iqh!!

vwihgurU jI kw Kwlsw! vwihgurU jI kI &iqh!! Yes! Professor Uday Singh has been an activist since the 60's for all sorts of issues. It is because of him that most of the Toronto Gurdwarrai are not privately owned and run(although they seem to be). He has a long record of assisting people legally and otherwise. Its sad that no one supports this Panth Rattan. Something like the SMART needs to be set up here in Canada. I was talking to Bhai Parminder Singh Jee a few weeks before he passed away, and he told me about his plan to have one handbook for everything sikhi related for western journalists before they covered a story on “Sikhs.” I think he started that, if he did then it must be completed. For the past few years something big comes up and there is no one to stand up for us. The WSO has done a good job in the past, but now it seems that they too are asleep. vwihgurU jI kw Kwlsw! vwihgurU jI kI &iqh!!

vwihgurU jI kw Kwlsw! vwihgurU jI kI &iqh!! What benifits will the promotion of gatka to the world bring for sikhs? vwihgurU jI kw Kwlsw! vwihgurU jI kI &iqh!!

vwihgurU jI kw Kwlsw! vwihgurU jI kI &iqh!! The vancouver smagam will be broadcasted from Khalsa School Surry from friday night onwards... We haven't decided yet, it could start sooner. vwihgurU jI kw Kwlsw! vwihgurU jI kI &iqh!!

vwihgurU jI kw Kwlsw! vwihgurU jI kI &iqh!! I was left shocked when i tuned into the broadcast at 3:00am on the second day that the chief guest was a member of the CONGRESS party. I think that those people that put the show on have no zameer and have forgotten the terrors that this same atrocious party unleashed. You all know what this party has done to sikhi and sikhs. And you are all aware of what the state of Punjab is today. I don’t have to go into that. But it's appalling that a member of the same party, that Indira belonged to, was the chief guest at such a function. For a person to be in a party they have to first agree with the policies that the party stands for. So when that Sunieel guy became a member of the Congress party, he must have known about the party's anti-sikh agenda. What is disgusting is that they had hindu dholis who did not cover their heads uncovered. The chief guest and 4-5 like him also did not have their heads covered. Where they can get hundreds of gatka players, why can't they find gursikh dholis. Even more despicable is the fact that the two commentators were asking the crowd to clap. Those guys asked the crowd to clap at the union minister by saying tarrian tarrian. Most Sikhs outside of India would die than to clap for a member of the congress. What value doShaheeds like Bhai Beant Singh and Satwant Singh hold on the hearts of these people that call that dhusht belonging to the Congress. Hey, he may be a good guy, but Sikhs can never forgive the congress party. He belongs to that party that was responsible for killing the only sons of thousands of sikh parents that are struggling to make ends meet. Why don’t these thugs compensate the victims? One of the main "sewadars" was present at the place from where they broadcasted this thing. Things like these make me realize that sikhi in India has hit a deep pit. I want to know from whaeguroo network for the sangats knowledge: why this event was broadcasted? Why are u guys hosting their site when there was so much manmutt going on at the event that this group organized? Do you know everything about this group? Are the people that run this group well known panthic entities? vwihgurU jI kw Kwlsw! vwihgurU jI kI &iqh!!