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Singhballer

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Singhballer last won the day on August 30 2011

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  1. I don't know how much business you've studied but Laissez-faire is an economic term and philosophy specifically referring to the belief that the less involved government/management is in economy and society at large, the better it is for the economy/society. The underlying belief being that self-regulation will guide people to the best possible actions. Being laissez-faire is caring about the consequences; one believes that not getting involved will result in the best possible outcome. It's really not the word you want. Nope, that doesn't bother me. You seem to be forming an opinion about my views without even reading my views. Instead of resorting to conjecture and speculation, just ask. I did show appreciation (you may have overlooked it past my first paragraphs), but as the paltry victories they were. They are miniscule in comparison to the immense, dire, and severe issues of the Panth. The decline of Sikhi in Punjab Due to things like: Proliferation of drugs, lack of parchaar and spiritual sustenance, government suppression of Sikh movements, corruption of Sikh institutions Lack of justice and healing from 1984 and following genocide Tens of thousands Sikhs killed, tortured, detained, made political prisoners, and continued mass impunity for perpetrators Corruption at the Akal Thakht, SGPC, and Sikh institutions Disunity and polarization of Sikh thought and people It's really impossible to sufficiently critique my views (which I welcome and encourage) without reading and analyzing them. Let's end this merry chase here!
  2. Laissez-faire* refers to the attitude of letting others do as they choose; it's probably not the word you're looking for. Perhaps using French may not best serve your purpose. You actually believed me to be angry (as noted below). I can't view these events as being unimportant and, at the same time, be angry that it did happen. I'd be seriously confused and contradictory if that were the case. What caused it to fester in the first place? If that illness has not been addressed in the past, what plan is there to address it going into the future? I haven't come across any evidence of such planning. In any of the concerns I raised about how the symptom was addressed, do you see no faults? There is disagreement on the Sikh Calendar and Dasam Bani/Philosophy that has morphed into animosity and hatred between Sikhs. By unilaterally making decisions, as Sarna did or Dhumma/Sant Samaj/Badal have done now, does it not expand that divide in the Panth rather than closing it? Would the following strategy not have been better? If there was disagreement on which calendar to use, then that should have been resolved through a Panthic gathering to discuss, debate, and build consensus. With a Panthic consensus the decision being made would be happily taken by all The same goes for Dasam Bani - have a gathering where all the dubious points that detractors make on Dasam Bani can be cleared. Have that discussion and build consensus. That brings people of different thoughts together. The response can't be to shout or hit back. Just restarting parchar is not enough to eliminate the problem. The response has to clear doubts and bring people toward consensus. The people who were already against Dasam Bani or the Bikrami Calendar have not come closer to those ideas but are further alienated and entrenched in their views. They have animosity toward the other side and vice versa. The strategy employed did not help in bridging this divide. Before anyone ever makes a decision on behalf of or in service to, the Panth, they should be doing a mental checklist of standards those decisions should meet. One of which should be: does this act bring the Panth closer toward unity or further away from unity? That consideration should be an integral part of the decision making process. The Sant Samaj's goal is panthic unity. The evidence is in Baba Hari Singh Randhawe Wale's explanation in my last post. As President of the Sant Samaj, it is also Baba Harnam Singh Dhumma's goal. Is having discussion and discourse on different ideas, viewpoints, and issues not something you are pursuing by being on this message board? I've written responses to your and others' points. By voicing your points and not attempting to consider mine, it begs the question: are you even interested in sincere, genuine, honest discussion? I attempted to provide thoughtful and researched responses that may provide some usefulness to yourself and others. Am I failing? I responded to your assertions regarding the Jagir and Nawabi in one of my previous posts which you might have ignored. Instead of the discussion progressing further its back to ground zero.
  3. My original contention below - while these may make for good acts they leave the solution to the Panth's problems unfulfilled. The memorial is great to have, but we should not think that it will bring the Panth great progress or growth. Memorials should be made, but with them should not come the consideration that it will provide betterment or amelioration. Sure, it's awesome that even though the government didn't want you to make, you made it anyway. But what re-occuring value does it give us? It doesn't next to nothing in telling our history and educating those who do not know our struggle. It is no Yad Vasehm (http://www.yadvashem.org/). The Jews have done so much to spread knowledge of their genocide and provide resources to educate the world. It would have been a better use of funds to create a digital library/media platform where our history could be collected, preserved, and displayed for the world to learn from. Building of the memorial does not help very much in disseminating our history, uplifting the victims of our genocide from their struggles, or ultimately getting justice for the Panth. It should be built but we should not feel giddy and jolly over its supposed impact. As for the calendar and parchar of Dasam Bani: The Nanakshahi calendar was removed without any proper consultation, discussion, debate, or agreement in the Panth. Its lunacy to push the change through without taking into account the opinions of the Panth. Thus, all those who have been convinced of the merits of the Nanakshahi calendar have animosity toward Baba Harnam Singh Dhumma and the Sant Samaj for doing it. Even if the Bikrami calendar is the best choice, or maybe a 3rd alternative calendar being better, but to make the decision unilaterally shows that Baba Harnam Singh Dhumma has no meaningful desire to build connections, bridges and unity in the Panth. If there was disagreement on which calendar to use, then that should have been resolved through a Panthic gathering to discuss, debate, and build consensus. With a Panthic consensus the decision being made would be happily taken by all, without it we have the discord and hate that are extremely obvious. The same goes for Dasam Bani - have a gathering where all the dubious points that detractors make on Dasam Bani can be cleared. Have that discussion and build consensus. That brings people of different thoughts together. People complain about all the hate and lies being spread on Dasam Bani but the response can't be to shout back. Just restarting parchar is not enough to eliminate the problem. The response has to clear doubts and bring people toward consensus. Whether its our calendar, maryada, or history/philosophy, no one can unilaterally decide what it correct and what isn't. The Guru gave us the Guru Granth-Guru Panth system, which is a tradition long dead and not up for re-installment by the political overlords. Until such time that the entire Panth can assemble Sarbat Khalsa, create a plan to debate and discuss these issues, and come to a conclusion and consensus, these issues will only fester and grow worse. Shouting back and forth at each other will not unite the Panth on these issues, no matter how true and correct one side might be in the debate. He was doing it strategically; his strategy was foolhardy. If Baba Harnam Singh Dhumma was truly a visionary, he would see that trying to work within Badal's political setup is futile. You're getting cents on the dollar. Peanuts. Little progression for all your time and effort. The revolutionary change to ideas centuries old is what is needed. Baba Harnam Singh Dhumma knows of our history ten times better than any of us yet fails to see that the only time multiple factions of the Panth were truly largely united was when the Sarbat Khalsa system was in place and operating. Think of the biggest Panthic problems and issues - none can be solved while working under corrupt politicians like Badal and others. Baba Hari Singh Randhawe Wale and the Sant Samaj have for almost two decades trying to get one Panthic Rehit Maryada implemented to unite all Sikhs but the SGPC leaders and their political overlords have no inclination or urge to do that because it does not serve their interests. Disunity is good for the politicians. All their attempts have been futile. Baba Hari Singh Randhawe Wale speak on this below: The better strategy is to unite all factions of Panth and put control back in the Panth's hands away from the corrupt politicians. I don't believe any of them are agents. I only believe that Baba Harnam Singh Dhumma has some character flaws and lack of knowledge/wisdom in certain areas that don't serve him or the Panth in the best possible way.
  4. Blase means to be indifferent or unconcerned. However, you perceive my writing on Dasam Bani being reintroduced to be both nonchalant (why don't we bring in another French word) but also emotional and angry at the same time. That kind of makes for an oxymoron; contradictory terms. When attempting to have any genuine and fruitful discussion I have experienced it is helpful to not speculate or make conjecture about the viewpoints of another. If curious or in doubt, just ask; ask with the innocent interest of a child. Other genuine level-headed people will gladly oblige. Fools like myself may otherwise find injury in your guesswork. Bringing in Samparda Kathavachaks fixes the symptom not the illness. The root problem that will fester and multiply is unaddressed. Is this a strategy for the long term that will bring unity and togetherness in the Panth? No. I have posted an excerpt of my last post on this topic below for your convenience, often my arguments become TL;DR. Again, conjecture and scorn for a person you genuinely want to have dialogue with may not be useful. Some may misinterpret your heartfelt intentions. If I'm not mistaken, it was rescinded after just two years! Here is the difference: When the Sikhs took the jagir from the Mughals, they took it after deliberation, discussion, and the approval of the Sarbat Khalsa Baba Harnam Singh Dhumma has built no such discussion and consensus building into his strategy, not even with the Sant Samaj. Heaps of them condemn his political choices. Getting the discourse changed to Gurmat is good. But the underlying problems remain unaddressed; problems that do the most to hold the Panth back as outlined in my above post. The jagir allowed the Sikhs to consolidate different jathas under the leadership of Kapur Singh into the Dal Khalsa. Factions were brought together. They used the political calm to develop their autonomous power and establish their sovereignty This was political power and control that they were able to grow for the Panth. The jagir was taken away very quickly, but look at what they accomplished in that time. The Khalsa was brought together in unity to fight for our future prosperity. I highly doubt the SIkhs who had been hunted down by Zakariya Khan suddenly became enthralled by his friendship. They took the jagir in a collective, panthic decision and likely knew they could be double-crossed. But they mustered their forces and were in a stronger position for when it did happen. In all the major issues of the Panth that I have outlined in my previous posts, Baba Harnam Singh Dhumma has made little headway in ameliorating them. No political autonomy is established for the Panth. The Indian government regulated the SGPC, the SGPC in turn is run by Badal and the Shiromani Akali Dal (Badal). There is no autonomy or control of the Panth in its own affairs, we are led by the string where the political elite wish to go. As I stated previously: Baba Harnam Singh Dhumma's strategy gives the Panth no autonomy, no control, and he has not pushed forward the Panth's interests in any worthwhile long-lasting way.
  5. Bring in Sarna or Badal, their ineptitude toward the betterment of the Panth is the same. Getting a memorial or gallery made is not all that valuable in the face of big problems we're facing. Getting the Nanakshahi calendar removed and installing panthic leaning Kathavachaks in Delhi and Amritsar: The Nanakshahi calendar was removed without any proper consultation, discussion, debate, or agreement in the Panth. Its lunacy to push the change through without taking into account the opinions of the Panth. Thus, all those who have been convinced of the merits of the Nanakshahi calendar have animosity toward Baba Harnam Singh Dhumma and the Sant Samaj for doing it. Even if the Bikrami calendar is the best choice, or maybe a 3rd alternative calendar being better, but to make the decision unilaterally shows that Baba Harnam Singh Dhumma has no meaningful desire to build connections, bridges and unity in the Panth. He follows the same classic Indian strongman move of implementing your full whim and will when you have power while not caring for the affects on others. Getting Panthic kathavachaks back into Delhi and Amritsar is Baba Harnam Singh Dhumma's and others' response to the preaching of left-leaning kathavachacks is fine and dandy, but how does it bring unity? If they were shouting, now we're just shouting back. While presenting your own ideas and interpretations in a sound and ration way without enmity is fine, and I encourage it, Baba Harnam Singh Dhumma and the Sant Samaj has failed to address the actual problem and close the gaping opinionated divide. Again, its the strongman move, we have clout in political circles so let's use it to push our agenda without being principled and trying to foster cooperation and consolidation in the Panth.This shows Baba Harnam Singh Dhumma's lack of strategic acumen, he is unable to properly diagnose the problem and come up with a strategy to tackle it while bringing Sikhs together. Whether its our calendar, maryada, or history/philosophy, no one can unilaterally decide what it correct and what isn't. The Guru gave us the Guru Granth-Guru Panth system, which is a tradition long dead and not up for re-installment by the political overlords. Until such time that the entire Panth can assemble Sarbat Khalsa, create a plan to debate and discuss these issues, and come to a conclusion and consensus, these issues will only fester and grow worse. Shouting back and forth at each other will not unite the Panth on these issues, no matter how true and correct one side might be in the debate. If Baba Harnam Singh Dhumma was truly a visionary, he would see that trying to work within Badal's political setup is futile. You're getting cents on the dollar. Peanuts. The revolutionary change to ideas centuries old is what is needed. Baba Harnam Singh Dhumma knows of our history ten times better than any of us yet fails to see that the only time multiple factions of the Panth were truly largely united was when the Sarbat Khalsa system was in place and operating. Baba Hari Singh Randhawe Wale have said in Katha before that these politicians don't have the Panth's betterment in mind. They say one thing, do another thing. He recounted the many times he approached the former President of the SGPC, Gurcharan Singh Tohra, to resolve the maryada issue and have one Panthic maryada implemented. Tohra would always say they'd take it into consideration and will do something to get the discussions started but never did over all those years of Baba Hari Singh asking. Why not? Unity of the Panth does not align with the values and interests of the political class and they have proven that over the past four decades. Again, it shows lack of clarity in thought and critical thinking on Baba Harnam Singh Dhumma to not be able to see his plan of action is ultimately folly. I do not blame Baba Harnam Singh Dhumma for causation, I said the following in my original post: "Many of the occurrences and facts I have presented above are not caused or created by Baba Harnam Singh Dhumma. However, in being the leader of Dami Dami Taksal and the Sant Samaj, and having such warm and close relations with the Badal family, the SGPC, and Shiromani Akali Dal (Badal), he has achieved very little in rectifying or ameliorating any of those issues in any meaningful way. It is treachery and deception with the Panth for Baba Harnam Singh Dhumma to have aligned, supported, and collaborated with the Badal family and the Shiromani Akali Dal (Badal)" Only 30 seats were allocated to Sant Samaj, out of a grand total of 170! I do not believe there would be any more change than there is now, they would have held 17.64% of the seats of a majority. This was not a coalition where Badal needs the Sant Samaj's votes to pass anything, and as such they hold no leverage over Badal. Do you have any documents or information that gives you a clear picture of what changes Baba Harnam Singh Dhumma and the Sant Samaj were going to bring about and what they're action plan looked like after winning those 30 seats? And did said plan look plausible? The SGPC was put in limbo by the case but has been run by its de-facto leaders since then, the Badals, and all its operation are still ongoing with them at the helm. The Sant Samaj and Badal still have the same supporting relationship, even more so now than in 2011, and thus I believe the political power the Sant Samaj has now is what they would receive even if the new SGPC house had gone into operation. Who do you refer to by "ravan sena"? It would have made people aware of the crimes of the Punjab government, which he orchestrated in part, and aided, abetted, and sheltered from justice the thousands of officers and government officials that were responsible for our genocide. Badal has blood on his hands too, not just CM Beant Singh. You may not be aware, but false encounters in Punjab started under Parkash Badal in the 1970s when he had the Punjab police extra-judicially killing leftist activists and 'comrades'. I can't find a source at the moment but from what I remember, the CBI submitted their report to the Punjab government and the Punjab government under Badal never released the report. But here's something that shows you the counterfeit an insincere concern for the Panthi's issues: -https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/soc.religion.sikhism/UJ96Dtk4neQ While Badal asked for an investigation when he wasn't in power this was what he said when he got in power on Kaunke's case. "Parkash Singh Badal, now the Chief Minister of Punjab, condemned this action. He was briefly detained for his statement. Yet he has fused to refer this terrible incident for investigation by India's Central bureau of Investigation (CBI) on the flimsy pretext that it would demoralize the murderous, out-of-control Punjab police." See excerpt from my original post above. Sant Jarnail Singh started his own morcha. The Akali Dal wanted to align their morcha with his. They mutually did that for the adoption of the Anandpur Sahib Resolution. Sant Jarnail Singh did not support the Shiromani Akali Dal in SGPC election, he supported candidates who stood against them. He did not voice his support for the party or its candidates any election, only collaborated to keep the Panth on one platform for the Dharam Yudh Morcha. He neither trusted, confided, or made himself vulnerable to the Akali politicians. He took his own course and created and arms-length partnership for the morcha. This is a very different political strategy to Baba Harnam Singh Dhumma's of throwing full support behind the Shiromani Akali Dal (Badal) and cozying up to the political elite. The Sant Samaj was in operation long before the 2011 SGPC elections. The Sant Samaj actually fought the 2004 elections under the Panthic Morcha against SAD (Badal). - http://www.tribuneindia.com/2011/20110810/punjab.htm#10 Those leaders did not leave because they had no desire to involve themselves in politics anymore. That is a fictitious assertion. These leaders had contested the 2004 elections too and stayed united after their loss then. What changed? These leaders left not in 2011 or the following years but in 2016/2017. Why then? That's when the beadbi incidents were happening the the hapless Punjab government and SGPC, both under Badal, did next to nothing constructive to solve the situation and instead used violence against protesters and killed Sikhs. Even after these facts when the many Sant Samaj members were justifiably angry with Badal and wanting to mobilise against him, it was the forever devoted Baba Harnam Singh Dhumma that came out with unwavering support for Badal and his party for the next elections. This was also following the pardon to the Sirsa pakhandi by the Akal Thakht by orders of the Badal family and the Shiromani Akali Dal (Badal)'s subsequent support from the Sirsa pakhandi https://sikhsiyasat.net/2017/02/03/93-sant-samaj-leaders-part-ways-baba-harnam-singh-dhumma/ - Read the article, the 93 leaders "have distanced themselved from Baba Harnam Singh's announcement to support the Badals" Its Baba Harnam Singh Dhumma's feeble leadership that has fractured the Sant Samaj Those Sikhs who took Nawabis from the Mughals established their autonomous control and helped to grow the Panth and its interests. Baba Harnam Singh Dhumma's strategy gives the Panth no autonomy, no control, and he has not pushed forward the Panth's interests in any worthwhile long-lasting way.
  6. My original post may need more clarity in how I present my ideas; I was not trying to put across the point that Baba Harnam Singh Dhumma must fit the mold of a leader who solves all the Panth's problems and leads us to a future of prosperity and growth. Those are lofty expectations. I do not believe that's the standard Baba Harnam Singh Dhumma should be held to. I was merely trying to question: are the "accomplishments" of Baba Harnam Singh Dhumma significant or are they miniscule and non-impactful for the Panth's future, especially in comparison to the immense challenges and issues we face. People will argue that Baba Harnam Singh Dhumma has used his leadership position in Dam Dami Taksal and the Sant Samaj, as well as, his support of and relationship with the Badal family and the Shiromani Akali Dal (Badal), to make important progress in issues of the Panth. I don't believe he has. I don't believe he has made any significant progress in addressing any of those larger problems of the Panth even whilst having his strong political affiliations. My intention was to point out that: The most dire and severe issues of the Panth have not been addressed in any compelling fashion by Baba Harnam Singh Dhumma over the last decade, at a time when he has cultivated powerful connections with Punjab's political overlords. He is not an individual who possesses necessary skills and character traits, such as long-sightedness, integrity, strategic planning/thinking, principles, conviction, etc., to be a useful, productive, valuable, and helpful leader that can earnestly contribute to the Panth's progression.
  7. I read the following passage in another thread. Instead of going off topic on the original thread, I have created this new one. -------------------------------------------------------------- I disagree that Baba Harnam Singh Dhumma has achieved many things by siding with Parkash Badal and his Dal. What has Baba Harnam Singh Dhumma accomplished in the affairs of the SGPC, Punjab's Government, or Sikh sovereignty since he's headed Dam Dami Taksal Mehta, headed the Sant Samaj, and nurtured such a warm relationship with the Badal family and the Shiromani Akali Dal (Badal) at large? I see a few things that may be seen as accomplishments by Baba Harnam Singh Dhumma The 1984 memorial complex being created The removal of the Nanakshahi calendar Getting approval for Taksal's kathavachaks to do parchar from Manji Sahib A "Martyr's Gallery" at the 1984 memorial (http://indianexpress.com/article/cities/chandigarh/apex-body-accepts-damdami-taksals-demand-4708101/) On a panthic level, can any of the above be termed as any significant achievement or contribution for our nation by a person who heads one of the oldest Sikh schools, an organization of Sants/Vidhvaans, and has relations with influential political leaders? They can not; these are paltry victories in the face of immense issues of our community. The biggest issues of the Panth (including but not limited to): The decline of Sikhi in Punjab Due to things like: Proliferation of drugs, lack of parchaar and spiritual sustenance, government suppression of Sikh movements Lack of justice and healing from 1984 and following genocide Tens of thousands Sikhs killed, tortured, detained, made political prisoners, and continued mass impunity for perpetrators Corruption at the Akal Thakht, SGPC, and Sikh institutions Focussing on the SGPC, has Baba Harnam Singh Dhumma done much of anything to elicit worthwhile change in all the shortcomings, mismanagement, corruption, and overall foolishness of the SGPC? In the video below Jathedar Ranjit Singh outlines many of the ways the Badal family has usurped the Sikhs' sovereign power and misused the Panth's power and wealth for their own benefit. He also talks about many actions of the SGPC that are blatantly corrupt. The Badals more or less ordered the SGPC to hand over the rights to relaying Gurbani from Harmandir Sahib from ETC Punjabi to PTC Punjabi at no charge. While the SGPC was to receive payment from ETC for the deal, the SGPC has received no compensation from the Badal family for the over 1100 Crore Rupees that PTC Punjabi owes as of 2013! Time and time again Baldev Singh Sirsa and Jathedar Ranjit Singh expose scams executed by SGPC officials to enrich themselves at the expense of the Sikh nation's funding. Property Scam - https://www.sikh24.com/2017/05/12/baldev-singh-sirsa-exposes-property-scam-in-sgpc-during-avtar-makkars-tenure/#.WYzaf_krKHs Property Scam - http://indianexpress.com/article/india/sgpc-chief-to-probe-land-deal-during-avtar-singh-makkars-tenure4789971/ Recruitment Scam - http://indianexpress.com/article/india/india-others/recruitment-scam-in-sgpcrun-guru-granth-sahib-world-un Badal seeking favours from Gurdwara Judicial Panel - http://www.tribuneindia.com/2002/20020522/main6.htm You will notice the SGPC always constituting its own "committees" of its own men to investigate. Does anyone think that will ever lead to a credible investigation where the truth and justice is of utmost importance? Nope. When a judicial panel tells the SGPC to have a private firm do an audit, the SGPC just ignores it. Complete disregard. - http://sikhsangat.org/2009/sikh-gurdwara-judicial-panel-slaps-contempt-notice-on-sgpc/ From the 7:00 mark Jathedar Ranjit Singh goes through the misdeeds of the Badal family and the SGPC. In relation to "2. Lack of Justice and Healing from 1984 and following genocide, What has Baba Harnam Singh Dhumma done with his influence on the Badal family and SGPC in that area? Thousands of Punjab police officers involved in our genocide have roamed with impunity. Badal Dal, while promising over many elections, particularly in the 1990s to punish all the guilty has done the complete opposite. They have sheltered, protected, rewarded, and saluted those same officers, and not just the big boys like Sumedh Saini, Izhar Alam, etc.. Did Baba Harnam Singh Dhumma do anything to use his political influence on the Badals to have impartial investigations, charges, and eventual punish meted down for the guilty? Some may know that the Shiromani Akali Dal used to have a "Shiromani Akali Dal Human Right Wing"; Jaswant Singh Khalra was the General Secretary of it. Why do you think that wing has gone into oblivion? Khalra and others working in that wing investigated and uncovered the crimes of the government. The Badals don't want such crimes to see the light of day and have as such instituted policy not to support human right endeavours in the political party of the Sikhs or the SGPC. Has Baba Harnam Singh Dhumma done anything to get the SGPC or Akali Dal to mobilise their resources toward hiring investigators, former police officers, former judges, or lawyers to research, investigate, and expose to the world, and begin legal proceedings for all those crimes that were committed against the Sikhs? Jathedar Gurdev Singh Kaunke was tortured and murdered by Jagraon Police. A report was conducted by the Punjab government but was never released. Badal promised to release it if it came into power. He never did. What has Baba Harnam Singh Dhumma done to get that report released? Especially since this particul victim was of such high regard from Dam Dami Taksal. In relation to "3. Corruption at the Akal Thakht, SGPC, and Sikh institutions" The Akal Thakht and SGPC has been controlled by the political overlords, whether it was Tohra or Talwandi exerting their influence, or the Badals in the modern day. The "leaders" of our nation in the form of Thakht Jathedars are chosen by the Badals to be "yes men", support the status-quo, and be wielded for political gain. The SGPC president is chosen in this exact way too. What has Baba Harnam Singh Dhumma done to change these political interferences and institute a system by with the nation chooses its leaders? What actions has he taken to ensure leadership at these levels works for the betterment of the community instead of the political betterment of the Badal family? While everyone makes much fuss over the Indian government destroying and stealing our priceless historical artifacts in 1984, the destruction that the SGPC has either directly or indirectly caused to our heritage is spectacular. Dozens if not hundreds of buildings razed or allowed to crumble. The possessions and artifacts of our Guru's and prominent Sikhs decay and turn to dust; this is living history going to waste forever to be inaccessible to our future generations. The SGPC has been aware of all this but this is not a priority for them. I'm sure Baba Harnam Singh Dhumma knows of this too. What has he done to mobilise SGPC resources towards the preservation of our history? I find it ironic that such a learned individual will do katha of and teach katha of Suraj Parkash or Panth Parkash, but that actual history he narrates he doesn't seem to be too bothered about protecting. Uncovered during the Badal's construction of the horrendous plaza outside Harmandir Sahib - https://www.sikh24.com/2013/12/02/sgpc-set-to-destroy-more-sikh-heritage/#.WYzdNvkrKHs Mansion of Mangal Singh Ramgarhia near Harmandir Sahib demolished. SGPC knew and did nothing. http://news.ukpha.org/2013/09/mansion-of-sikh-general-mangal-singh-ramgharia-razed-to-the-ground/ Relics of the Guru's decaying - http://news.ukpha.org/2013/02/priceless-possessions-left-to-decay-in-neglected-forts-among-them-relics-of-guru-gobind-singh/ Relics of Guru Arjan Dev Ji decaying going to waste - http://news.ukpha.org/2013/02/as-bilgas-treasure-decays-villagers-seek-outside-help/ Finally, while he has been President of the Sant Samaj for a great length of time, the other Vidhvaans of the organization have become disillusioned with his leadership or lack-there-of. Mahapurakhs like Baba Lakhbir Singh Ratwara Sahib, Baba Hari Singh Randhawe wale, Baba Amir Singh Jawaddi Taksal wale, Baba Seva Singh Rampur Khere wale all have left or distanced themselves from the Sant Samaj due to its wayward leadership and direction. - https://sikhsiyasat.net/2017/02/03/93-sant-samaj-leaders-part-ways-baba-harnam-singh-dhumma/ Many of the occurrences and facts I have presented above are not caused or created by Baba Harnam Singh Dhumma. However, in being the leader of Dami Dami Taksal and the Sant Samaj, and having such warm and close relations with the Badal family, the SGPC, and Shiromani Akali Dal (Badal), he has achieved very little in rectifying or ameliorating any of those issues in any meaningful way. It is treachery and deception with the Panth for Baba Harnam Singh Dhumma to have aligned, supported, and collaborated with the Badal family and the Shiromani Akali Dal (Badal); and to think, I haven't even mentioned Badal's and the Shiromani Akali Dal's collusion and cooperation in the June 1984 attack and subsequent smothering of the resistance movement. Have other leaders in the Panth also joined and supported the Badal family? Yes. But, no dharmic leader has been closer or supported the Badals with more zeal than Baba Harnam Singh Dumma. What triumph has he produced from that support? Baba Harnam Singh Dhumma may well have done a lot of things over his lifetime, however, the high position and influence he has been given have gone to waste. He does not seem to to have the wit, vision, strategic acumen, or transparency that Sikhs require from a person in such a position. -------------------------------------------------------------- If there are any mistakes or criticisms of the above analysis please voice them!
  8. One point repeatedly being made by Dhumma to justify the attack is that Dhadrianwale's verbal attack on Dhumma was a direct attack on Dam Dami Taksal. Dhumma asserts that anything said about the leader of an institution is to be taken as it being said about the institution itself. He questions how you can separate the two. This is a very flawed assertion by Dhumma. It is entirely acceptable for a leader or individual to be criticized without an institution that criticism being linked to the institution or organization they represent. This is a poor method for Dhumma to justify the attack. Using Dhumma's logic we would be smearing and disgracing the Akal Takht when we criticize Gurbachan Singh and the other Takht Jathedars for pardoning Ram Rahim and taking orders/directives from the SGPC and Badal government. Another example, Jathedar of the Akal Takht, Aroor Singh, had honoured General Dyer the person responsible for the Jallianwala Bagh massacre in Amritsar. Is what Aroor Singh did not something Sikhs should oppose? Should Aroor Singh not be condemned and criticized for his shameful behaviour? More on Aroor Singh: Not anyone would disagree with condemning Aroor Singh but by Dhumma's argument, we would be denouncing the Akal Takht at the same time. Having had so much Gurmat instruction you would think a person like Dhumma would think his arguments over to determine their sensibility. I guess not.
  9. Another great analysis by Dr. Amarjit Singh from TV84:
  10. Singh559, I like Ajmer Singh's analysis of how Dhumma handled himself in comparison to the Sikh way of dialogue and too don't agree with his opinions on the rift being created on Sri Dasam Granth. I have always enjoyed his rational arguments and ability to look at the bigger picture for specific situations.
  11. A good analysis by Ajmer Singh on the recent attack:
  12. Baba Harnam Singh Dhumma condemns the attack on Baba Ranjit Singh Dhadrianwale in the first statement he makes on the subject: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Foow6GCyow Dhumma says: These actions need to be condemned in harsh words. Everyone should speak out against it. Sikh Jathebandis should get together to answer back on these things and need to mobilize themselves to stop such ploys. Then in the following statement, Dhumma's words take a change in direction: Check the Facebook page of the news channel for a better version: https://www.facebook.com/abpsanjha/ Baba Harnam Singh Dhumma claims Baba Ranjit Singh Dhadrianwale have been making accusations for over 4 years and has made derogatory comments on Dam Dami Taksal's dastar and reputation. The derogatory comments are claimed to be of the very low and despicable character. I have yet to see evidence of the above claim. Dhumma believes Dhadrianwale should have looked at his own dastaar and realised it has the same honour and respect as someone else's. This is a comical suggestion as Dhumma himself criticized Dhadrianwale for his choice of dastaar style, a useless critique. Dhumma claims in 4 years he never made any derogatory comment against Dhadrianwale. This is proven false by Dhumma's critique a few weeks ago of Dhadrianwale and his dress, deferring to this chola as ghagri and making comments about his dastaar styleDhumma makes a point of Sikhs only supposed to be wearing 4 colours of dastaars. A fair point, but hardly something that warranted negative utterance toward another parcharik. Calling Dhadrianwale up and raising this concern and doing benti to stick to the four colours would have been the better move. Dhumma says that the Singhs that attacked Dhadrianwale wished to get him to stop his derogatory comments about Dam Dami Taksal. They did what they did for the the honour and respect of Dam Dami Taksal. A lot of people's feelings are connected with Dam Dami Taksal and that some can handle someone's attacks while others cannot. I have seen no evidence of Dhadrianwale making any defaming comments about the Dam Dami Taksal While it is a fair statement to say that people's feelings can get hurt and they take matter into their own hands, Dhumma comes across condoning the attack when he should be condemning it. Dhumma originally condemned the murder, but since the perpetrator are the student's and friends of his institution, the attack is now being condoned and justified. Hurt feelings over the alleged bad-mouthing of your institution's leader is not sufficient justification for attacking and attempting to murder someone Dhumma should be vehemently criticizing and denouncing what occured but instead has shifted to defending and tolerating the attack Was the killing of Bhai Bhupinder Singh, who made no utterances toward anybody, not wrong? Should his killing not be condemned? The vehicles being destroyed, while a minor misdeed in comparison to the life lost, is the loss of property funded by the Guru's sangat. Is that not worth expressing regret over? A chabeel was made part of the ruse to trick the targets into the trap. An age old tradition of seva was utilized by the perpetrators to commit murder. People will look toward chabeels with suspicion, the government has outlawed them without prior permission, and beadbi of the tradition has occured. Is that not worth condemnation from Dhumma? Dhumma says he will be supporting and helping those charged with these crimes. While raising concerns about potential police torture and brutality is legitimate, unequivocally supporting those who committed such disgusting acts is lunacy. The following is a news article following Dhumma's press conference on May 23rd, 2016: The article states: Dhumma admits the perpetrators and vehicles used are from Dam Dami Taksal Dhumma states he has no knowledge about the Chabeel being used as a tool in this attack (how is it possible to attempt to even feign ignorance about this). HERE'S A BOMBSHELL: The press note being used during the press conference (which Dhumma read from) was prepared by the media advisor of Punjab cabinet minister Bikram Singh Majithia and Dhumma read it word for word When the journalists had one on one interviews afterwards (as in the ABP Sanjha video above) what Dhumma read and what he said in those interviews went in opposite directions Questions that need answering: Why are the media advisors of Badal's cabinet ministers helping Dhumma with his press statements? Why is Dhumma putting up a farce in his statements? He is blatantly being deceitful and disingenuous by stating one thing through a press note (probably things he doesn't actually believe) and then airing his real thoughts and feelings in the interviews. Why the two-face bigotry? Overall, Baba Harnam Singh Dhumma has proven that he severely lacks skills in leadership, strategic thinking, conflict/crisis resolution, honesty, and accountability. Operating as the head of Dam Dami Taksal's Mehta faction, his weakness and ineptitude in being a competent leader does a disservice to the entire Dam Dami Taksal. This incident and the subsequent severe mishandling of the response by Dhumma has eroded the reputation and respect for Dam Dami Taksal in the eyes of Sikhs world wide. Those close to Dam Dami Taksal have to deliberate with themselves and ask, is Baba Harnam Singh Dhumma's handling of the situation helping the taksal? Will it help them engage and connect with the hearts of Sikhs? Will it help them prosper and flourish going into the future? If the answer is no, we may have someone in a job way above his skill set. _______________________________________________________________________________________________________________________ I did this quick analysis just pouring over the information on the internet. If you find any mistakes, any additional relevant information, or have any analysis of your own to air, I would welcome your feedback and will make any corrections necessary.
  13. Nanaksar Worshipping Photos

    What objective proof do you have that "Nanaksar make that photo of the Baba as the representation of God" ? Do all those Singhs at Nanaksar consider such photos as the avatar of God? What proof do you have of the mental thoughts and feelings those Singhs have toward those pictures? Did they verbally tell you they consider those pictures to be the avatar of God? Did you read their minds? At Barsis of various panthic personalities, the pictures of said personalities are brought in the diwan to remind sangat of the physical form of the person they are remembering. Worship is defined as: "the feeling or expression of reverence and adoration for a deity". Reverence and adoration can be defined as "a deep respect or love". Deity is defined as "a god or goddess". Do Singhs have a feeling of deep respect for Baba Nand Singh Ji? Almost certainly. Do Singhs consider Baba Nand Singh Ji's picture a representation of "a god"? Highly unlikely. Please provide proof that exhibits Singhs' internal feelings and sentiments that show they consider the picture of Baba Nand Singh Ji to be a representation of God. Unless you've interviewed them, I think you'll be hard-pressed to manifest any such proof.
  14. Full Tv Show On Sikh Channel Uk (Dsgmc-Sangat Q&a)

    The need for Khalistan has been poorly articulated by everyone besides Dr. Amarjit Singh of Washington D.C. The case for Khalistan needs to be made by discussing all fronts of how that nation would be different from the current situation in Punjab. An answer on how Khalistan would improve things for Punjabis, in relation to human rights and freedoms, socially, economically, and overall quality of life needs to be clearly given and be openly available. Sikhs do need to raise literacy levels and education within themselves and have a more interconnected community globally. But besides fostering a culture of higher education and pursuit of knowledge, I don't believe there is anything greater Sikhs as a larger community could do. Yes, the people of Punjab are suffering due to changes in the economy and the sub-par effort to adapt effectively with necessary legislative amendments and new policies (current policies and regulations do not entice foreign investment in Punjab). But the responsibility to improve economic conditions in Punjab, to increase foreign direct investment, and to provide the general populace with well paying jobs that grow the economy toward a information based economy is with the Punjab and Indian governments. It doesn't help when your Minister for Education has only passed the 10th grade (Sikander Singh Maluka - http://myneta.info/pb2012/candidate.php?candidate_id=446). Not to mention half of the Punjab cabinet has no post secondary education. The failure of Punjab to adequately adapt to social trends, rapid urbanization, and globalization are failures of the Government. Literacy rates are not high enough and access to credible and relevant information on these precise topics is very poor. It cannot be expected that people can learn how to adjust to a changing world on their own. The sole job of the SGPC is to defend and bolster Sikhi. This encompasses propagation of the Sikh way of life, the protection of Sikh history and its related historical Gurdwaras and artifacts, and providing life's basic necessities (food, shelter, clothes) to humanity. To mold the Sikh populace into productive and nurturing members of Society is under its mandate, however, I fail to see what role the SGPC would have in moving Sikhs toward being any of the occupations you listed. Sikhs in their basic form are saints and soldiers. Why would we want to remove the Sadhu aspect from Sikhi? It should be a part of us but of course not be our sole trait. I highly doubt the assertion that Sikh organizations led by "Babas" are teaching that Sikhs should solely focus on a Sadhu lifestyle. Baba Jagjit Singh of the Harkhowal samparda have many times given guidance to, in addition to living the Sikh lifestyle, have scholastic pursuits and go into honorable professions. There are actually a lot of rituals and prayers that devout Jews preform on a daily basis, and they are not so liberal in their linkage with society as you might think. Many are recluses and focus much of their time on their religion, family, and work. Its hard to contrast Jews being opposite to your view of what Sikhs are apparently doing. In year 70, after the destruction of the Second Temple in Jerusalem, the control of elite Jewish priests, in whom control of religious ceremonies vested, was relinquished. Jews became more widespread after the Roman conquest. Since Jewish life revolved around the Torah, it required all Jewish men to read and study the Torah themselves and no longer reliant on Rabbis. Their children would begin their instruction to do the same from a very young age. Education was compulsory for people of the Jewish faith and this was revolutionary compared to other societies that existed through the first millennium and a half. It gave them an intellectual edge on all other communities as a whole. However, Jews who's livelihoods relied on resource industries, like farming, had a hard choice to make. Do they send their children to learn Hebrew, which is religiously mandated but brings them no economic benefit, or do they become less devout or even convert religions? The bleeding population was one reason Judaism did not flourish in the world as other faiths did. Within devout Jews, education was a basic building block for their families and the community. Because of their early connection to education, Jews were, in large part, ahead of their peers. The culture of educational pursuit and excellence was cultivated through religious necessity and became ingrained in Jews themselves. They all push their children on an individual level to pursue their academic interests and morph into professionals. There is a great parallel with Sikhi. From 1716 to the establishment of the Sikh Misls, Sikhs were displaced with very few substantial and permanent habitations. It required every Sikh to be self-reliant and learn Gurmukhi and keep alive the Sikh way of life. Education was likely more precious during those times. As Sikhs have endured through a century of relative peace, a culture of complacency has festered and Sikhs no longer feel there is a need for that basic understanding of our language, which is the gateway to Sikhi. Most Sikhs living in rural areas in the past 150 years likely saw no economic benefit from education, similar to the thinking of some Jews. If any culture of learning Gurmukhi as a necessity to our way of life existed, it was wiped out by generations of ill opinion toward education. Very few Sikhs send their children to Gurdwaras to learn Gurmukhi, Sikh history, and music, so kids aren't getting an influx of knowledge at a young age like Jewish children have been. Had Sikhs had the long and winding ordeal the Jews had and developed that deep rooted culture of academia over two millenniums, we might also be staunch champions of education too. For the present, we are not. What are your ideas on how to change that? What role to Sikh groups have to play in that? What real world steps and ideas can be implemented to get the change we need? Many would argue institutions like Dam Dami Taksal, Mastuana, Nihang Dals, Harkhowal, and Jawaddi Taksal have been promoting and providing costless learning of languages, history, music, the Sikh way of life, and to some degree for some, the quest for technical and academic knowledge for a long time. Suits may be fancier than Salwars (oh the irony). In all seriousness though, I agree with reaching out to those who aren't living the Sikh way of life and giving them the Guru's message in a medium and channel that is most productive for them. I think Manjit Singh's statements about Sikhi sound great and are good ideas, but they seem to be wide blanketing statements that are far from being a clear direction to a better future. The problems that Sikhs face in India and around the world are well known; having a vision for a better future is a good place to start. Nonetheless, until concrete steps and plans to actually tackle the problem are put into practice, its all just talk, which Punjabis are more than accustomed to hearing. On a side note, most of the immense problems that Sikhs/Punjabis in the west have with Indian and Punjab governments almost entirely have to do with unfair treatment before the law, human rights, and freedoms of the people. They include but are not exclusive to: In no particular order. 1. Being categorized as Hindus in Article 25 of the constitution 2. The leaving out of Punjabi areas from Punjab 3. Punjab river waters being controlled and diverted in violation of international riparian law 4. State sponsored murder of tens of thousands of Sikhs/Punjabis, widespread use of torture, and extra-judicial killings of peoples without fair/due process taking place. 5. State sponsored killings, assaults, rapes, arson, and looting that took place in the Sikh genocide of November 1984. 6. The mass impunity of all those involved in the events listed in 4 & 5 from political leaders, political party workers, para-military & police personnel, and Indian citizens . 8. The needless attack on Harimandar Sahib in June 1984 that killed thousands and saw hundreds of Sikh artifacts destroyed or looted. 7. The rejection by the state to the freedom of speech, freedom of public protest, and freedom of political thought. Promises to address and tackle said problems have been given by all political parties, most of all the Badal Dal. People are well accustomed to political double talk; its hard for many to believe Manjit Singh GK is genuine in his statements knowing he represents the interests of the Badal Dal (A view on GK's statements on Sant Bhindrawale and comparison of Iran to Khalistan - ). That's my take at least, sorry for being all over the place.
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