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The Masands were also going out and physically committing violence, which included rapes, murders, etc, it's not mere words or committing victimless crimes. I have already stated that when things get violent, then violence can be used, you are bringing up the masands as a strawman fallacy to muddy the waters. Saying that Sikhs should not assassinate people for victimless crimes and not answer non violence with violence is manmat? Can you show me of any Gurbani or History from the Guru that shows the Guru assassinating people for non physical, victimless crimes? People like you, who aren't willing to sit down and have an intellectual discussion, and just pull out a kirpan on those they disagree with are the problem in the panth. You can't just advocate violence against everyone you disagree with, you are very unreasonable. I formally challenge you to a debate to prove your argument using Gurbani and history from the Guru, will you accept?

I have already provided more than enough evidence to support my arguement, and the fact that this user has the audacity to tell me that IM a Manmukh when I literally quoted the Guru twice and provided multiple real life examples of the Guru, just shows how intellectually deficient he is. Its obvious that proper intellectual arguments aren’t going to work, and you have to sometimes speak their language. I also would like to point out that their position isn’t advocating Death for Apostasy in Sikhi, it’s for death for the desecration of the traditions of the Khalsa Panth. I’m sure they wouldn’t care if people leave Sikhi, they just care when they attack the Panth.

Yeah, perhaps you could have bothered to post a bit of Gurbani on what Sikhs are supposed to do with bemukhs. Gurbani tells Sikhs to boycott bemukhs. It does not tell Sikhs to kill bemukhs.

neo30S1ngh, Bhai Jagmeet Singh Jio reply, to my understanding is that the >INDIAN GOVT< MASTERMINDED THE AIRINDIA BOMBING! He went on to say, investigations to prove this truth, should be the focus, not posters of Sikhs who DID NOT BOMB AIR INDIA, BECAUSE IT IS INDIAN GOVT WHO HAS HISTORY OF KILLING INNOCENT!! Vahiguroo Guru Nanak kirpa karin my message is understood, despite poor english_/\_, all govt...OBLIGED TO VAHIGUROO to understand that authority does not give them right to quiet down and hide their inhumane actions against their very own innocent citizens!!

Did you not read a single thing I wrote? I literally justified my views using Gurbani and History. What I say literally can’t be Manmat because I use Guru Gobind Singh Ji’s literal words to back it up. You are indirectly advocating terrorism. You are creating parallels with ISIS and radical Muslims who want to kill people who they disagree with. People like you need to calm down, drink some lassi, put your Kirpans in their sheets, and just contemplate Gurbani before you lecture others on things you don’t understand. I challenge you to a debate to prove your points using Gurbani and the Gurus history, will you accept? Or run away like the other coward!

"Giani" (actually "agiani" ) Kuldeep "Singh" (the one who dropped 3 banis from Amrit Sanchar) is a bemukh, loser, fool, and &lt;banned word filter activated&gt;. He was on that website of Ragi Darshan Singh's (which I won't link to), posting a list inane "questions" for the Singh Sahibs undermining faith in basic Sikh tenets, including Dasam Patshah's bani. I was quite shocked when "Giani" Kuldeep "Singh" took the step of arranging an "Amrit Sanchar" without the 3 banis from the Dasam Granth Sahib. I don't remember if I posted specifically about the Virginia "Amrit Sanchar", but I have posted regarding documentary evidence for the 5 Amrit banis. That said, for me it is not OK to make a mockery of the religion, or to bring drastic (or gradual) anti-Gurmat change. They are definitely perpetrators, and they will face punishments in hell (as detailed in Gurbani, posted by me many times previously). As for punishment in this world, Gur-Itihas does not show that Guru Sahib had propagators of anti-Gurmat killed. For example, Pirth Chand set up his own parallel Guruship (necessarily denouncing the legitimacy of the Guruship of Guru Arjan Dev ji) and his own "Darbar Sahib". I would say that that definitely qualifies as anti-Gurmat. But Guru Sahib did not have him killed. Instead, the Guru's Sikhs (Bhai Gurdas ji/Baba Buddha ji) preached against the heretics, and warned the Sangat, including via text (Vaars). Which is exactly what we should be doing, with words (among our friends/relatives), katha, speeches, lectures, symposiums, pamphlets, Youtube videos, Internet discussion boards, Facebook, etc. I think it's a wonderful thing that Sikhsangat is generally considered an anti-jihadi / anti-radical Islam website. But one of the reasons that people detest radical Islam is stuff like the fact that if you become an apostate in Islam, the punishment is death. By contrast, in our divine religion, the punishment (in this world) is merely that you go on your own way, with Sikhs having nothing to do with you. That's why the Prophet Mohammed had Asma bint Marwan, a female Arab poet, killed for ridiculing him. See here. And on the other hand Guru Har Rai Sahib excommunicated (not executed) Ram Rai. I think it would be extremely bad for Americans to start thinking that Sikhs are nothing more than Muslims with kirpans, killing anybody that doesn't agree with them. It will be very difficult for us to live in Western countries if that false notion takes hold. I believe I have credibility to speak on this issue because I am one of the most conservative posters on this site. With the greatest of respect for you and other posters on this site, I hope that we will all come together to vigorously denounce Sikhs heretics like "Giani" Kuldeep "Singh" of Virginia while at the same time educating people that a death penalty for apostasy is not a part of Gur-Itihas. Bhulchuk maaf.

Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa, Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh! Recently, there has been an assassination attempt on a man named "Kuldeep Singh" from Virginia, USA, over the desecration of the "Khand Di Phaul" Amrit Sanchaar ceremony of the Khalsa Panth. In May of 2016 a famous Sikh preacher named "Ranjit Singh Dhadrianwale" was also faced with an assassination attempt, which was also carried out by not the Indian government or some external power, but by fellow Sikhs. Without going into the specific issues behind the motivation of their attempted assassinations or the issues themselves, I would like to discuss the very use of violence as per Sikhi. I have seen some Sikhs, as well as some users on this sub, who openly advocate for violence. I would just like to remind them that although from a Sikh point of view violence has historically been advocated and used, the context under which it was used is very important. Guru Gobind Singh Ji himself says: "ਚੁ ਕਾਰ ਅਜ਼ ਹਮਹ ਹੀਲਤੇ ਦਰ ਗੁਜ਼ਸ਼ਤ ॥ ਹਲਾਲ ਅਸਤ ਬੁਰਦਨ ਬ ਸ਼ਮਸ਼ੀਰ ਦਸਤ ॥੨੨॥" "When all other methods fail, it is proper to hold the sword in hand. (22)" -Guru Gobind Singh Ji, Dasam Granth, Ang 1471 As anyone who can read can clearly see the Guru very specifically states that the sword (in this case symbolizing violence) must only be used when "all other methods fail", the Gurus message is very clear, yet its some of those who claim themselves to be Sikhs of the Guru who are having a hard time understanding what the Guru himself is saying. On the issue of those who manipulate or change Sikh practices, spread misinformation, and are disingenuous, the answer is not to go out and assassinate them or endorse physical violence against them, but to rather have an open dialogue and show them the errors of their ways, becuase dialogues are what really change peoples minds, not putting a bullet to their heads, becuase then their is no one to save. If you have to resort to violence in response to someones opinion, then you have already lost, becuase you have shown that you cannot win the battle of ideas, and thus must resort to your primal instincts. The problem with killing someone, is that you dont necessarily kill their ideas, and in some famous cases, killing someone can even act as a catalyst to spread the idea even further. A prime example of this is the Shaheedi of Guru Arjan Dev Ji, which inspired Sikhs to take up arms and fight back against the Mughal tyranny. This doesn't go to say that all people who are assassinated are morally correct, it just proves that killing someone can have the opposite intended effect. When you kill someone, you also take away their ability to later redeem themselves, and if after the fact you find out that they were innocent, you are not able to bring them back. It is only in the most dire of circumstances that physical violence should be used, becuase violence itself doesn't prove who is morally correct, only who is martially superior. Lets also not forget that when you "kill" someone, as per Sikhi, you aren't killing them but rather just their physical vessel. On a deeper philosophical level, according to Sikhi, everything and everyone is just another form of ੴ, which is ਅਕਾਲ ਮੂਰਤਿ (Akaal murat), meaning essentially beyond, above, not subject to ("A" prefix), death, time, end (Kaal), "Image" personified (murat), so in essence, "you" aren't killing anything. The concept of Justice is often confused with Revenge. Revenge is one-sided, and motivated by self-interest, Justice is impartial. Revenge is more "An eye for an eye", while Justice provides a solution to the problem, and tries to resolve it. Revenge is often driven exclusively by emotion, while Justice is usually driven by logic and rationality. Often times people like to bring up the historical example of Guru Gobind Singh Ji ordering Banda Singh Bahadur to fight the Mughal forces. This was not done out of "revenge" for the brutal execution of the Chaar Sahibzaade, the 4 biological "sons" of the Guru (technically all Sikhs are his sons), but rather to deliver the long awaited Justice to the Mughals, to free people from their oppression, take back stolen land, and as a defense mechanism to prevent further conflict and oppression. Sikhi does not advocate the concept of revenge as many claim, however it does fully advocate Justice. "ਪਾਰਬ੍ਰਹਮ ਕੇ ਭਗਤ ਨਿਰਵੈਰ ॥" "The devotees of the Supreme Lord God are beyond hate and vengeance." -Siri Guru Granth Sahib Ji, Ang 1145 One might ask, if unjustified violence and forms of revenge are not acceptable in Sikhi, then how should Sikhs deal with serious issues of those who attack Sikhs and Sikhi by manipulating traditions, spreading misinformation, being corrupt, etc? There are a verity of different ways Sikhs can deal with these issues: Education: The most effective, and tired and true method to change people has allways been education. If you disagree with someone, instead of trying to assassinate them, its a better idea to get to understand their point of view, and change it. Check out this article on how to change peoples minds. Ignoring: Oftentimes people just do stupid stuff for attention without having a hidden agenda or malicious intent, if this is the case, then just ignore them and deny them any attention. Check out this article on 10 tips to dealing with Trolls. Denunciations, boycotts, or even excommunication: In the worst case scenarios (aside from using physical violence), denunciations, boycotts, etc are to be used when the individual refuses to change their ways despite every other effort. This has historically been used by the Khalsa Panth and even the Guru himself, it is reffered to as "tankhiya". However, a tankhiya is not the end, and their is allways an option for redemption, but that is up to the Khalsa Panth and Guru to decide. These are just a few of many options, however the main idea is that there is a long list of protocols one must follow before physical violence can even be an option.

From my understanding of what I learn't over the years. I have concluded revenge attacks has been a tool used as per Sikh history and traditions. But revenge is not allowed to be used against innocent civilians and fellow Sikhs only against the non-sikh aggressor guilty parties during times of war or extreme persecution. Guru Ji in his 52 commandments to the Khalsa makes it explicit that his Sikh believers must not attack fellow Sikhs. Obviously you can defend yourself if your under attack but you must not incite any physical attacks on another Sikh. When Sri Guru Gobind Singh Ji drew the sword and waged war against the muslim mughuls it was after years of persecution was tolerated, anti-sikh religious slurs were tolerate, discrimination was tolerated, even diplomacy and alliances with some mughul princes was made and tried. But when it all came to nil and the community still faced Islamist persecution and extermination then as a last resort the war was aged offensive and defence against the alleged powerful and mighty mughuls, afghans and others who tried the same. Sikhs soon showed them the power lay with the many shift sparrows not the few fat hawks. When we compare the patience and tolerance of Guru Ji and his Sikhs of the past versus how democratic western nation governments even today wage war for revenge or on false pretexts for economic, geo-political opportunism. Then we can realise the greatness of our Guru's and teachings of peace, co-existence, patience and tolerance until the point where our life and entire religion is at risk and we must wage war we are compelled to wage war as a means of survival . In modern day contemporary sikh history and politics that instance came quite recently in 1947 during split up of punjab and 1984 when the Indian state was determined to wipe out thousands of entire innocent Sikh civilian youths and their families to allegedly in the guise to fight separatists and keep the integrity of India. Had majority of Sikhs of fighting age men (approx 10 million men) combined their forces and waged war on India then India would not exist today, India would have been be broken up into various nations by now but majority of Sikhs had patience and tolerated the indian state violence in hope that things will get better and a belief that opportunities for a better life can exist in united india than in a separate state.

Very interesting, it makes sense that this group of devils conspired to set Jagmeet Singh up. As regards the arrogant British-born twit Terry Milewski, his origin is Polish. As everyone knows, Hitler wanted to genocide the Poles, and take over their territory for Germans. Jagmeet Singh (or other Sikhs) should ask that fool: "Would you kill Hitler if you had a chance and if not killing him meant the genocide of the Polish people, including your parents?" Flip the tables on him. Make it personal, make it visceral. Put him in a lose-lose situation.

OK, bro. If you want to call them idiots, that's fine by me. In fact I would use even harsher language against Baljeet Singh of New York. At exactly the time the Canadian media is working overtime to portray us as extremists and terrorists, he goes and shoots up some non-violent fool of a granthi, thereby doing the anti-Sikh media's work for it. I dread the media coverage that is going to follow his trial, and what sort of defense he is going to mount. If he says "I was defending my religion", non-Sikhs will naturally want to learn more about this religion in their midst which encourages its followers to kill those who stray from the path, thereby creating new opponents of Sikhs. Great job, Baljeet Singh! Not.

Great thread, thanks for posting this. Salient points from this thread: The masands were punished not merely for stealing and such, but for such acts as rape and attacks on Guru Sahib. Secondly, masands who committed forgivable crimes were forgiven and told to sin no more. Finally, good masands were commended. So the example of masands in no way provides precedent for killing mere heretics.

Another angle besides the obvious violence is never okay to settle non violent disputes: Psychologically speaking - fear based approach may work short term but hardly works in long run- history is witness take a look at the state of muslims and islam. Its good to learn from your mistakes but its even wiser to learn from other people mistakes. - Almost assassinated leader/preacher/journalist, gains more credibility /victim in masses /public opinion than academia rebuttal /massive sikhi parchar/ ignored/ troll one*, again history is witness whether is ujjal dosanjh (look at his influence in media), tara singh hayer- journalist-before he was fuddu writer in des pardes when he was alive than he is revered matryr in journalist world , ranjit singh dhandrianwale before he was sant wanna be now after assignation attempt got huge following, and example op shared. this is great thread by op and great article provided by op- https://www.forbes.com/sites/johnrampton/2015/04/09/10-tips-to-dealing-with-trolls/#52598ad454f4 - Even in elections world wide, no political opponent will use violence or force against political oppopent to sway public opnion as its counter intuitive, they will use other tactics- media, social media - recent huge news of shady manipulation by cambridge analytica of tapping and exploiting deep underlining fears of swing voters. So wake up from village mentality.

My post wasn't showing how they are the victims, it was that a non-violent act should not be met with violence. There are other ways we can combat this than go out and assassinate people for victimless crimes. Of course they should face a punishment, however it should not be physical, let alone death. If someone changes a Khalsa practice, such as the Khand Di Phaul, then they should try to justify their views as per Gurmat, and if they fail. they should apologize, however even if they dont, they should not be killed, an excommunication and boycott is more than enough. If you are going to rebut an argument, you should at least read the entire thing in context. I am fully aware of the perpetrators of these actions, and I still agree they should not be KILLED, and in the worse case excommunicated, do you have a problem with that?

NDP leader Jagmeet Singh- political assessment Here is mine, please share yours 1. Political trap was set by influenced by ujjal dosanjh, tarak fatah -(his daughter -works for cbc close with terry) terry meliswky to cbc terry meliwski to get questioning on Oct for jagmeet singh, very first interview- 126 k views- He failed miserably on his first day. It was fair line of questioning tbh despite of the backdrop influence as he is "NDP LEADER" and his past sikh activisim- canadians ought to know. He took the bait screwed up- it wasn't catch 22 suitation either. He should have said based on the inquiry and canadian judicial system - i condemn posters, and presented facts hardly any gurdwara has his poster along with that in the same breath he could have mentioned 1984 sikh genocide with saying- Hey terry since you asking me about this based on my past activism, i planned to have motion in future for 1984 sikh genocide, that would have burned their tragedy and blew up with plan on their face. Turned tricky interview into rightful condemnation and pro sikh stance- 1984 sikh genocide. Instead this is bad optics all around. To be fair -terry in this interview whilst having bit of condescending tone was fair asking him those questions at the end due to past singhs activism history, if that question was addressed to bains, harjit sajjan. I would have said it would have been racist but knowning singh activism in the past it was fair line of questioning which jagmeet singh himself admits last week-fair questions 2. Recent statements and video interview by jagmeet singh were spot on. I just really wished he would have done that sooner in the first interview and not fallen to the trap. 3. He has to be impartial as he representing all canadians not just sikhs. i am hoping he comes with more serious condemnation comes up with pr un harmful statement like- Fanaticism is global problem, no religion or groups are immune to it. I condemn all of them. If he doesn't media will go on witch haunt against him goin on and on. Conservative media will play with swing voters (liberal and ndp) underlining fears. If his plan is to grab swing voters from liberal back into ndp he has to do better job. I would advise him to get more swing votes from conservatives than liberals 4. He is yet to come up with actual framework platform of ndp for next election, so he should concentrate on that rather than too much on 1984 sikh genocide at this time, correct timing would be later this year when genocide occured in india where liberals will be compelled also to vote that motion as it may swing voters at this time liberals communication -gerald butts want nothing to do with more sikh controversy due to absolute pr/bad optics failed trip in india. Prior to that he should introduce another motion in june to honor victims of AIR INDIA BOMBING -worst canadian terrorist incident in canadian history- where 325 innocent lives were killed including 92 sikhs on that plane and condemn parmar more and more and more. 5. He needs to keep draw parallelism of sikh genocide with first nation genocide. People will understand more. 6. He needs to captalize idea of sikh seperatism with quebec seperatism, he will gain votes in quebec which he has already done. 7. Stop hanging around too much with jus reign, gangster videos. 8. Absolutely capitalize on sikh parade idea in khalsa parade, nagar kirtan should give him limitless time for path of peace and reconciliation message (with back drop malcom x-sant bhindranwale-che guevera picture) he genuinely beleives in peace between hindu and sikhs-bring hindu ndp supporters with him thats the only he can neutralize the bad pr disaster he is recovering. THIS IS GOLDEN CHANCE FOR JAGMEET SINGH TO COUNTER MOVE AGAINST GOI PLAN TO DIVIDE POLARIZE HINDU VOTES and minority INTO CONSERVATIVES. 9. His focus should be gaining hindu votes, jewish votes, not just dividing sikh votes from liberal. He needs to show his representing all canadians and minorities. He should totally endorse tamils, jewish, as they have been through same genocide as us. Endorse conservatives motion of israel as state. 10. He could never a PM in this country after massive misteps in political world-optics/perception is everything there is no recovery from this, faster he realize this harsh truth -better it is for him. In the back of his head-he should aim for offical ndp opposition in house of commons and not to sway votes from liberals but conservatives. At the end, sikhs have choice 10 sikh mps and -5 high sikh positions ministers - including harjit sajjan sikh defense minister of canada with trudeau with balleh balleh picture below or him. Be realistic - just get him in house of commons as opposition in by election dont vote for him at the election day at the expense of liberals loosing big time and conservatives winning majority.

Madness i tells thee its complete missionary madness. Most Hindu 's especially hindu punjabi's , muslims and christians all believe in black magic/superstitions i noticed. They have yet to come into the light they still live in backward beliefs and encouraging gullible others to join in with their pakhand. If it wasn't serious it would be hilarious but these people are determined to convert Sikhs, hindus and break up families and bring punjab into the pakhand of worshipping foreigner middle eastern blue eyed blonde hair white man and itto the Christendom sphere of geo-political influence.

Good points raised, lets look at the root- we need to read and understand psychology of ego - human conditioning- always looking for sense of security in its little box it lives, if there is sense of insecurity or if it feels threatened on any levels- it will get behind self righteous cause- it will act out of fear do all things of crazy things including violence with all kinds of justification. Power of now and new earth books by echkart tolle are extremely good read it talks about violence by ego- deconstructs and rips ego conditioning into pieces, ego is main culprit which is cause of violence, killing of innocents in wars and human suffering in the world. People talk about cocaine rush and forbidding use of drugs which is quite right, but esoteric speaking many mystics, saints have claimed highly mobilized ego on power trip is biggest cocaine rush, its powerful than winning billion dollar lottery, power-ego trips and abuse over others trumps everything, will try justify anything under the sun. Stay under care of gurbani message, following through teaching, one can't go wrong as gurbani tranquilizes it then destroy its in the gyan of gurbani.

I agree jagmeet singh is facing obvious campaign of political harassment, dog whistle politics as they call it. Because 1) he is an educate smart minority brown male 2) he is a turban wearing sikh 3) He defends his community and is passionate about getting justice for the Sikhs for the 1980s genocide and other attacks india carried out on the Sikh community. The Canadian public should ask themselves is that so wrong? If that was a jewish candidate and he/she was campaigning to have the genocide against them by nazi germany recognised in law by Canadian parliament no one would be against it but we have racists and anti-sikh bigots in the canadian media and politics that need to be exposed. For once and to his credit Sunny hundal no stranger to controversy in the Sikh community for his anti-sikh and negative articles of past years.....has recently been very balanced against the tirade of attacks against Sikh politicians and prime minister Justin trudeu. Sunny has actually called out the unfair rabid coverage recently Sikhs in canada and india. Just look at his social media and he is shocked at the way right wing indian/hindu activists and canadian right wing press has behaved. I think he is realising the scale of the racial and religious problems against minorities in canada and india. What is clear now is agenda of the so called canadian journalists should be exposed using the very words they use against their targets. So if the target is jagmeet singh research all the articles a particular journalist has written about him and show the world that particular journalists and their publication a clear bias and racism against that Sikh politician. Call out that journalist for their racist and racial biases against other targets they victimise Doesn't matter if its jagmeet or another Sikh politician we cant have racist/religiously hateful lines of questioning in civlised democracies and those so called journalists who fall foul of standards in jounalism should be exposed. Its as simple as that. I particular don't want to see a Sikh leader of a mainstream political party or prime minister of country in the western nations they are born into or living in. In my view Sikhs would just be used as puppets while their business cooperate or banking puppet masters have them do their bidding while harming the Sikh image in front of the public. Just like prime minister manmohan singh was used as the fall guy the man to blame had congress party been accused of anything bad. Sonia gandhi allegedly said she doesnt want the be prime minister of India so offered it to manmohan as a gesture of good will to his community. The real reason she didnt want to be leader was because no serious Indian nationalist would have voted for a foreign born person also she wanted to hold the reigns of power behind the scenes use the puppet manmohan to do congress parties bidding also show the world that congress party has reform no longer the terrorist genocidal party that had murdered thousands of Sikhs from 1980s onwards. So although its great to see Sikhs rise in Canadian political scene it is also dangerous for our image because people angered by their governments policies will be quick to point out the obvious racial and religious differences of their elected representative rather than point out the bad policies. Sikhs should concentrate on creating political think tanks, banks, huge wealth funds and businesses and use that power for the shadows to influence government policy.

Vahiguroo Jio kirpa karin, so that all will think as this pappi murakh do; that Shaster Naam Bani is of spiritual significance to eliminate 5 bhoots of our minds, because pure or evil minds follow our jeev according to Gurbani_/\_and quality of our minds, lead us to anand Sachkhand or misery of janam maran...

I've been watching terry debate with world sikh organization and sunny hundal. He is been refuted many times. This guy over fixtation with sikhs fueled by ujjal dosanjh is quite worrisome but hope cbc obdusman can see- terry personal issues with us. Hardly impartial. i prefer neil macdonald over terry. His recent article was bit biased but shed some jaw dropping revelations and reconfirming our suspicion that all sikhs been saying all long, he is bit vulgar but surely he spilled lot of beans recently- http://www.cbc.ca/news/opinion/jaspal-atwal-1.4563222 Opinion Why wasn't Jaspal Atwal on Canada's no-fly list?: Neil Macdonald It is unlikely that any effort was made to vet Atwal's name with CSIS By Neil Macdonald, CBC News Posted: Mar 06, 2018 4:00 AM ET Last Updated: Mar 06, 2018 4:00 AM ET Justin Trudeau's Minister of Infrastructure and Communities Amarjeet Sohi pictured with Jaspal Atwal in Mumbai Feb. 20. (Name withheld by request) 1557 shares Facebook Twitter Reddit Google Share Email About The Author Neil Macdonald Opinion Columnist Neil Macdonald is an opinion columnist for CBC News, based in Ottawa. Prior to that he was the CBC's Washington correspondent for 12 years, and before that he spent five years reporting from the Middle East. He also had a previous career in newspapers, and speaks English and French fluently, and some Arabic. More by Neil Macdonald Video by Neil Macdonald Related Stories Conservatives fail in bid to bring national security adviser to testify on Atwal affair Trudeau tries to distance himself from would-be political assassin Jaspal Atwal It's the Atwal effect — and nobody's immune Never mind the matter of why the failed assassin Jaspal Atwal would be invited to any sort of diplomatic reception, let alone one starring Prime Minister Justin Trudeau and his wife. Political parties can be venal and willfully blind to ugly realities in pursuit of votes, and that should be no surprise. The better question is this: how in heaven's name was that man allowed to set foot on a passenger aircraft, in an age of no-fly lists so strict that babies with names similar to violent extremists are denied boarding? The answer is that Jaspal Atwal is not on the list, and almost certainly never was, despite the fact that by any of the definitions law enforcement uses to define a terrorist, Jaspal Atwal is a terrorist. And not an aspirational one, either, like some of the clumsy fools who have been reeled in over the years by overweening government stings. No, Jaspal Atwal belonged to a cohort of Sikh extremists who, from their base in Canada, fought a violent war against the government of India in the '80s. Their hatred may very well have been justified – the Indian government was as ruthlessly vicious as they were. Air India bombing But the facts are not arguable: Atwal's fellow travellers bombed a jumbo jet, killing 329 innocent souls, over the North Atlantic in 1985. And they narrowly failed to bring down a second airliner, which instead exploded on the tarmac at Tokyo's main airport, killing two baggage handlers. Atwal himself tried his very best a year later to murder a high official of the Indian government on Canadian soil. He failed only because his target, Malkiat Singh Sidhu, managed to feign death, despite the two bullets Atwal and his confederates had already fired into his body. (Five years later, other Sikh extremists finished the job for Atwal, murdering Sidhu near his home in Moga). In any case, in their day, Atwal and his ideological colleagues were in the same league as, and in fact even more deadly than other far more famous groups: the Baader-Meinhof gang, the Shining Path, Black September, the IRA, the Red Army Faction. Certainly, they were a far more lethal threat than the disturbed homeless man who shot a reserve soldier in the name of Allah in Ottawa nearly four years ago, and was subsequently shot dead himself in the Parliament buildings, providing hawks with justification for a controversial new anti-terrorist law. Sikh extremists were a closed, fanatical bunch, and virtually impossible to penetrate, as Canada's nascent intelligence service learned. They were CSIS's first and greatest failure; Canada's international shame, a former CSIS chieftain called them. And yet there was Atwal, posing with a beaming Sophie Grégoire Trudeau, at a Canadian diplomatic reception in India last month, having boarded a plane and flown to India a few days earlier. Sophie Trudeau and Jaspal Atwal pictured at a film industry influencers event with Indian film stars in Mumbai Feb. 20. (Name withheld by request) The explanation for the invitation is pretty obvious: Atwal, since his release from prison decades ago, has remained active in Sikh politics, and became prominent in the apparatus of the Liberal Party of Canada, which depends heavily on the Sikh vote. Atwal was in fact invited to the reception by a Sikh Liberal MP, and he has been posing for photos with Liberals, federal and provincial, for years. It is unlikely that any effort was made to vet Atwal's name with CSIS. His name is in the CSIS system, and would have been instantly flagged. But the explanation for his ability to get on a flight to India is far more interesting. In search of that answer, I spoke recently to four former Canadian intelligence officers from the era of the Sikh wars. All, as you'd expect, were disgusted at the photo of Atwal in India. Three of them once had roles overseeing Canada's no-fly list. The list, they say, is exceedingly short, at least compared to the American list. It is curated by Transport Canada, with input from CSIS and the RCMP, and it remains secret. In order to be placed on it, said one ex-spy, authorities have to make the case to a multi-departmental committee that the individual poses a threat to aviation — a bar one of the agents who participated in the committee meetings felt was far too high. Often, he said, CSIS would come away frustrated in its efforts to have an individual placed on the list. And especially since 9/11, the focus of the list, and of our intelligence agencies, has been just about exclusively on Islamic jihadists. Its greatest recent growth has been fed by names of Canadians who have flown off to fight in Syria. Canada's spies are bound tightly to their American counterparts, and respond to American priorities, and, says one of the ex-agents I spoke to, the Americans never really cared about Sikh extremists. As far as they were concerned, the Sikhs were just killing each other, which was fine with them. (It should be noted here that of the 329 killed in the Air India bombing, the vast majority carried Canadian passports. None was an American citizen). All four of the former intelligence officers I spoke with reckoned that Atwal cannot possibly be on the American no-fly list either, because Canadian carriers are extremely skittish about boarding anyone on that list, even on a flight not flying into American airspace. OPINION: Sikh activism in Canada is not the Khalistani extremism of decades past Man convicted of attempted murder says he bowed out of event in India to save Trudeau embarrassment Let's go beyond Atwal, though. Here is another excellent question: What about Inderjit Singh Reyat, who served time in prison for actually building the bomb that brought down Air India Flight 182 in 1985, and who is now free on parole? Is he on our no-fly list? Or Ajaib Singh Bagri? Or Ripudaman Singh Malik? Both those men were early, prominent members of Babbar Khalsa, the group that hatched the airliner bombings, and while they were acquitted in court of conspiracy and murder, any ISIS- or al-Qaeda-style jihadi with their credentials would likely never fly again. Are they on the Canadian list? It is worth considering that Sikh extremist groups – Babbar Khalsa, or the International Sikh Youth Federation, to which Atwal belonged – have more in common with the IRA, or the FLQ in Quebec, than with, say, ISIS. Like the IRA, the Sikh groups are not regarded as terrorists, and indeed warmly regarded, in certain sectors of their diasporas. The IRA enjoyed considerable fundraising and popularity in cities like Boston and Montreal back in the days when it was carrying out bombings of British targets, and the portrait of Talwinder Singh Parmar, the founder of Babbar Khalsa and mastermind of the Air India bombing, still hangs in Sikh religious centres in British Columbia. Paul Rose, the leader of the FLQ cell that kidnapped and strangled Quebec cabinet minister Pierre Laporte in 1970, entered politics after his release from prison and was even a nominated candidate for the New Democratic Party of Quebec in 1992. Quebecers took a much more sympathetic view of him than English Canadians. Atwal is sort of a Sikh version of Paul Rose. But even if he evaded placement on the no-fly list, and wangled an invitation to a prime ministerial event, there is one more puzzling question about his visit to India: Why would the Indian government have let him in? The Indians despise Sikh separatists, and agents of the RAW, India's intelligence agency, have been caught repeatedly operating against Sikhs on Canadian soil (If you can't deal with these bastards, we will, RAW reportedly once told CSIS). All of the ex-agents I spoke to had the same theory: Atwal, they assume, had elected to cooperate with Indian intelligence. That, and a decision by the current Indian government to pursue some sort of rapprochement with the Sikh diaspora – the Khalistani separatist movement in Canada is now all but moribund – would explain his ease in obtaining an Indian visa. Lucky fellow, our Mr. Atwal. Time has passed, and memories have faded. Perhaps the men currently sitting in cages in Guantanamo Bay have some hope after all. But perhaps, just out of an abundance of caution, it would be better to keep them off airplanes.

In absolute world -everything is fine and dandy and relative world, sometimes people need jolt. I love my village in punjab so not anti village-especially gurbani hymns during amrit vela and dhud wali cha and poranthai. so i apologize- but it abhoring hard work done by media savvvy sikhs and sikhs mps gets ruined by these idiots.

So Brexit was a devious scheme by the evil corporations to gut various laws? The reality is the vast majority of those "evil corporations" were in favor of remaining in the EU. 2/3 of big corps wanted to stay in the EU. Only 2% favored a Brexit scenario.

Sunny Hundal (brother of late great gursikh bhai jagraj singh ji) is doing better job than you these days, he tacking cdn media with whole current cdn sikh extremism narrative and is united with all sikhs-one voice against current onslaught conservative media with goi back drop influence and whilst you prefer keep fighting with fellow sikhs. Come on dude, we can settle our old scores when we were both retired on park bench in bc while our grand kids play in the park, time to become one voice now. GOI trying to crave out divided another sikh body in canada besides wso to push their chapli water down version of sikhi and khalsa, and lets not let them and play into their hands.

it was a plan to distract Uk population from removal of workers rights, human rights and social security protection, increase of embezzlement from government agencies such as health , education , prisons by ministers. opening the country to attack from corporations within and without the country

I can see the trends in the UK because I am from the UK. There are a lot of people going from mona to Keshdari than the other way around. One must be practical about these things, you are not going to get perfection on these matters. There are certain nuances that you must understand about us UK Sikhs. Preet Gill's father I think was highly likely to become Amritdhari later in life, I could almost guarantee that Preet's father was not Amritdhari when she was growing up. You will notice when a lot of the current UK bizurgs were mona in the 60's and 70's and then grew back the kesh afterwards. There is a difference in the region of the UK where a Sikh resides. There are 2 areas where Sikhs reside: London and the South East Birmingham and the Midlands. Preet is from the latter. She is a Midlands Sikh. In the UK, the Midlands Sikh is far more in touch with their roots and traditions than the London Sikhs (I am generalising here ). So you get the perception that because she cuts her hair that somehow she is lax in some matters. Don't let appearances deceive you. Some of the most ardent pro Sikh Sikhs are found in the Midlands. A mona from Birmingham will have your back more than an Amridhari from London. That is the irony. Numbers do matter but in what context? As a voting bloc yes but it is how you use those numbers. Most of the heavy lifting for our quam is going to be done by a minority, the majority is there for the ride.

kira, i disagree with Kirpan being insignificant as hindu janeu, because it is just impossible to make you understand if your thought is only on physical value of OUR GREAT KIRPAN, vs ACTUAL SPIRITUAL VALUE (KIRPAN IS LIVING, IS VAHIGUROO). GURU GOBIND SINGH JIO KIRPA DYA REHM KAR JIO_/\_, so those who think as you and Gurjant Singh, understand you cannot ever be ready physically if you are not a Khalsa, as Brahmgyani Bhai Jeevan Singh Jio atey Gurbani Jio teaches, >BE A KHALSA<, then, your level of thinking will comprehend Vahiguroo's Hukam bethi Jio_/\_♡♡♡♡♡

Guest Sinner Jee, we are all sinners in higher or lesser measure, but we are sinners, that is for sure. You taking 2 steps forward and then some back, well that is not new also, so are we all also not better than you, some are even worse, they call them sikhs, but they go on bullying and enjoy troubling people, inflating their ego... So come on, you are not that bad, at least you do not hurt the feelings of others. You must bear in mind, that you go to the Guru Dwaras, to listen the keertan and kathas, the wadeayee of Guru Jee, not to mingle with people, so do not get disheartened if they the people want to stay away from you, that is their problem. People do change with times, just as their state of mind changes, what else can the poor people do? It is in their nature to change, sometimes for good, some for bad. You see, as long as men are under the control of the trickery mind, they are bound to change helplessly. Maybe, Wahiguru wants to make you stronger right from just now. You know what, when we shall leave this eartly plane, we shall go all alone by ourselves, only He and His bhakti shall only go with us. Then you should also know, that Guru Jee has never ever stopped loving you, He cares for you, just as for any of His jeev atmas; the thing is, most of us have turned our faces away from Him, so we feel lost. He is like the Sun, giving His light and warmth to all equally, whosoever is faced towards Him, independent of any distinctions of color, class, gender, or being a sinner or a saint. Just as the Sun can not change its nature, so is Wahiguru Akal Purukh. He is so generous, that He overlooks all our sins, nor does He judge anybody. If ever we find ourselves strayed, it is because our own karam, our planted seeds, which give us the fruits according to those of our very own karam. We are all weak and dumb, and shameless to the extent, that we even blame Him, when He is nothing but an Infinite ocean of love and mercy. Our Guru Sahiban have beautifully described Him as : Aad Sach, Jugad sach, Hae Bhee Sach, Nanak hosee bhee Sach. You see, He is changeless, He has been truly an endless fountain of Infinite love, right from the very beginning, He has been changelessly so during all the Yugas, He is changeless even now, and He shall remain changeless in His swaroop of Pyaar, for the the endless time. You see, unlike us, or gods and goddesses,He is pure always, for He has no mind, He is all purity, love and mercy, so it is baseless to accuse Him of not loving us, or Him stop loving us, for only under the influence of mind does one change or waver. We can put caps on the bottles, but no one can ever put a cap on the ocean. This is the case of a limited material ocean. So then, how can anything be put on Him, who is an Infinite Ocean of Love and mercy, in order to make Him stop pouring out His love ? The very fact, that He loves you, is that you are not satisfied with life, and are still looking ahead for His love. Believe it, if it was not for Him, one could not even think of Him. It is more about his pull from within yourself, than any amount of efforts of yours to come near Him. Just a small benti, please never ever blame or accuse Sachay Patshah Wahiguru Akal Purukh, whether willingly or unintentionally. It is the biggest injustice, that one can commit, not only towards Him, but towards oneself, for we are turning our faces away from Him; and we all know what happens then; man, maya, kal, yam doots, have all the freedom given by us to them, to keep us trapped in this mayavee creation . Do His Simran / japna, as much as possible whether you feel you enjoy it or not, just keep going on, He is our anchor, and without this bhakti, there is no way for no one. Stay blessed. Sat Sree Akal.

Ok. I know someone who met her and said she was French, they must have been mistaken.

kira, besides my Kirpan as a Amritdhari, atey Gurbani daily, i am yet to achieve readiness as Bhai Randhir Singh Jio in Jail Chittian, where He tolerated much physical abuse, including attempts to force Sikhi highly taboo meat etc in His Paviterr Puneet Mouth, but Vahiguroo gave Him Jorr to give pappi gora good beating, that made gora resign from job and beg Bhai Sahib Jio on knees_/\_, i am nowhere near Bhai Sahib Jio or any Gursikhs, just love you all Khalsa Soormey as our Miterr Pyareo Guru Parvasa, and doing what i can to share what i know Jio (how i know is His kirpa, if it is worthy knowledge, only time will tell)_/\_Paviterr Charna Bhul Chuk Muaf Gurfathe Vahiguroo rakha ♡♡♡♡♡

SO are you now on board for people keeping guns and weapons?

http://www.sikhri.org/challenging_the_darkness

kira, gun is legal in usa, so is usa, india, israel et al supported by evil corrupt in their so called violence against crime, terrorism etc, but when Sikh Saint Soormey sacrifise thier good name, lives, all...for humanity by eliminating evil govt, they are labelled terrorists, Sikhs killed in thousands...let us adorn Gurbani Shaster to achive Chaute Sahej Gyan Bakshish from Vahiguroo Jio to know truth about who really is responsible for killing innocent in biggest defamation against sadei kaum, and support efforts to uncover truth, please_/\_. my every web activity is being monitored by rss hind (who will not cease their manipulations, troublemaking...until entire world convinced we Sikhs are uneducated terrorists). see video hind label Sant Jio, who helped many hindus who asked for his >NON VIOLENT <help against their own corrupt, yet Sant Jio repeatedly defamed as killer in this video ( , while jagdish t, etc minority mob killers free). PLEASE INDULGE IN WHAT WILL REALLY FREE US TO LIVE IN HUMBLE, SILENT DIGNITY VS WASTEFUL BEGGING ON STREETS, ETC WORLD AUTHORITIES WHO REALLY DO NOT CARE WHAT HAPPENS TO US SIKHS JIO_/\_...Guru Nanak Jio's reply to someone who asked why not just kill evil, that will NOT ELIMINATE EVIL, but to reform them BANI IS REMEDY Jio_/\_♡ http://www.worldsikh.org/our_work

ਵਾਹਿਗੁਰੂਜੀਕਾਖਾਲਸਾਵਾਹਿਗੁਰੂਜੀਕੀਫਤਹਿ A humble request to the beloved Sangat. It is an honour for us to have the privilege to invite you to the 1978 Amritsar Exhibition. The venue of the exhibition will be Singh Sabha Gurdwara, Derby, DE23 8NT and it will be held on two days: Friday 30th March 2018 11am - 1pm Sunday 1st April 2018 3pm - 5pm This exhibition will surely benefit the visitors who want an insight into the historical event that occurred in Sikh History on the occasion Vaisakhi 13th April 1978. This extraordinary event was to usher a new chapter in the history of the Sikhs. We will be pleased to welcome your presence at the exhibition. Respectfully, ____ AMRITSAR 1978 http://amritsar1978.com/

♡♡Bani Shaster, Bani Vahiguroo, Sansar Bani Vahiguroo Pyare Khilan Jio_/\_♡♡

TIME Time is one of the greatest luxuries in the world today. One of the most valuable gifts one can give oneself is time, time to be more present in the deeper world around us, time to be more present in the deepest part of our own conscious lives. We are all allocated the same amount of time the 24 hours, but how we use it, is up to each and everyone of us. Time wasted can never be recovered. The clock ticks away unceasingly, reminding us, that this life is finite, limited. This world is an illusion, and we are like puppets on a string on the stage of the world. It may soon be time to take the final curtain and depart from planet Earth. So let us use our time wisely and make the most of it, to the One, who has given us so much, by being thankful to Him. Not by mere words necessarily, but by lovingly devoting ourselves at His Lotus Feet, as much as possible. Because from this perishable and false world, if their is any wealth(dhan) we can carry with ourselves, that is the Bhakti of Wahiguru Akal Purukh, for there in those spiritual planes, nobody will ask us, to which country or race do you belong, or which social class does one belong, no bribery, nothing, except the wealth of His Name. Anyone who goes having collected as much of that spiritual wealth, which has no taxes of Kal Purukh on it, is considered the wadbhagee beloved one, of Wahiguru, for this in reality is the key(time spent in His Bhakti) to His abode, namely Sach Khand. Sat Sree Akal.

Pranam Gurjant SINGH JIO, KIRPAN IS TO PROTECT YOU AS YOU DO BHAGTI AS >KIRPAN IS VAHIGUROO JORR IN SPIRIT<_/\_ prove to me you can get Jaggi out using offensive force with Kirpan, because that is just what our adversaries waiting for...how many more Shaheeds, that has only made them more corrupt, receive more support and manipulate justice more?_/\_ MAAN JEETAI JAG JEET!♡ Guru Nanak kirpa dya mehr karo Jio_/\_

Practicing egotism and selfishness, some people try to impress others by showing off. They perform all sorts of rituals, but they gain no acceptance. Without You, Lord, nothing happens at all. You forgive those who are adorned with the word of Your Shabad. People are born, and they die, but they do not understand the Lord. Night and day, they wander, in love with duality. The lives of the self-willed manmukhs are useless; in the end, they die, regretting and repenting. Burnt offerings, sacred feasts, intense meditations with the body upside-down, pooja, and taking millions of cleansing baths at sacred shrines of pilgrimage: the merits of all these can be obtained by enshrining Lord within your heart for a fraction of a second. One enshrines Naam within their hearts, by God's Grace. Even beasts, ghosts and the stone-hearted are saved. The Naam is the panacea, the remedy to cure all ills. Singing the Glory of God is the embodiment of bliss and emancipation. It cannot be obtained by any religious rituals. O Nanak, he alone obtains it, who has it in his destiny. Even if one wanders over the whole planet, and performs all the rituals of purification day and night, still, without the true devotion of His Name, darkness still prevails. Pilgrimages, fasts, purification and setting limits are of no use, nor are rituals, religious ceremonies or empty worship. Through manmat, people are engrossed in duality. Emancipation comes only by loving devotional worship His Name. Sat Sree Akal.

triphula explained here video will start at 47min 3s where baba ji talks about trifula below is another very informative video

Gursikhs will do what Gurbani tells them. This is why Gursikhs reading Gurbani and don't attain manmat from your post or @N30S1NGH. Both of you can make up all the theories in your head and write them on this forum and others, but no Guraikh will pay attention. The Gursikhs face is turned to the Guru and they don't fear worldly punishment by so called democratic governments. Neither of you can stop the Gursikhs. Those who will not do anything and will sink in the deepest ocean will bow their heads to n30singh theories. I'm satisfied with telling Sikhs to read Gurbani and do what Gurbani says on when to use the sword. Gursikhs do not adhere to Gurbani wrapped in western logic.

LOL you are completely deluded. Please read some itihaas. The corrupt masands met their end by being thrown into boiling oil as per guru ji's hukam. You are just attempting to spread your manmat, so please stop talking nonsense before you embarrass yourself further.

To some Sikhs, it might be okay to make mockery of the religion, bring sudden drastic anti-Gurmat change. You based your whole post on two events and showed that somehow they are the victims. To folks like me, they are the well known perpetrators who should face stiff punishments. Your first paragraph saved me time to read rest of the thread. Know the person and his deeds first before throwing all support.