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Akalifauj - where have what I said anti-gurmat? Have I said I celebrate or follow Jesus? I buy my children a present and have a tree (with no star on top before you get excited).

Some people say dhadhi vaaran contains bir ras

all this is relating to the subject of the pushing away of our faith to replace it with others celebrations , we have the tech to fix it but until we get skates under the committe vale who are dragging sikhi off road and ensure our kids have knowledge and opportunity to do sewa , sing kirtan (love to be up there much better than britain's got talent), lead congregation in Ardas , Parshad vartouna etc etc . a Granthi is just a sikh who has decided to do hazoori sewa , technically anyone can do the job, Sants are not of any official roles despite what Indians want us to believe , Sant Samaj is full of people who acted really dodgy during the protests against Guru ji's beadbhi...Giani/sant are ACTUALLY defined in Gurbani and these people mostly don't approach that level. Sikhi is flat hierarchy under Guru Granth Sahib ji /Akal Purakh anyone claiming otherwise is lying

no it is not illegal or at least it wasn't then and teachers and headteachers were not constrained in how to teach as the current spoonfed neo liberal slush given to our kids. in the seventies , people actually still talked about the faith of the land ...nothing unusual really ...Indians are forever talking about their majority religions and forcing their chosen languages on others. it was a state school , and we all sang the songs when told to close eyes and bow heads I did the same but did naam japp ...same with my siblings

Its absurd that you guys had to go through this. Does the UK not have separate Christian/Catholic schools? This is literally imposing religion onto impressionable young children. Its wrong on so many levels!

What’s wrong with it? What doesn’t make sense is you complaining about it here, on another site, when you can contact them if you’ve got a problem with it.

Isn't that illegal, or did you and your parents consent to that? And if so why?

This is an excellent point. We have very little involvement in terms of worship. We certainly do not make people feel as if they are taking part/getting involved or help them connect on a personal level. It's not just down to the committee vale though, the other barrier is the Rehit Police. Practically need a background check to take part in anything. As a teenager and when I was a mona, I used to go to a smaller Gurdwara (Ravidassi), and the Granthis used to ask me to vartao prasaad if there was no one there to do it. Even then I was like "what me? Are you sure?", but at the same time I felt so happy, felt a part of the Gurdwara, felt a connection. I also found it ironic that the people who have faced the most discrimination in our qaum did not discriminate against me, caste or Sikhi wise. I actually said Gyani, as in those who are given that title, Kathakaars and such. And yeah what you're saying is right, but I'm saying what the situation is; we have a de facto hierarchy.

Bhaji you're not wrong there, extra bani is always good. But the extra saloks are there for a reason, they're meant to remind the Dal what they are and what their job is, it is fine to read it however but we shouldn't say one is "the best" when it comes to Rehras Sahib from traditional schools with lineage back to Sri Guru Gobind Singh Ji. The addition of extra saloks is paramount to their own school and so on. The best way to look it (imo) is that the Taksali one is the bare minimum (just like in all amrit sanchars the 5 Bani are the bare minimum) but it is fine to read another one (providing it is sourced to Guru Ji's time) if it does have more (as more isn't the same as less in terms of the SGPC one).

Priesthood in Sikhi is Sants, Babe, Gyanis or we can continue being in denial. There are plenty of Sikhs who practise Brahmachari. Ok fine we do not have idol worship per se. Personal aggrandisement is aplenty. There is child abuse but not on the scale as the Catholic Church - sure it was DDT who was guilty of this (ironically the ones who think they are bajjar-kurehatproof but like to point fingers at everyone else) Btw I apologise I wasn't clearer, that sentence was not meant to define the whole paragraph rather the guilt trip remark. In India these are probabaly great. Here is the west you cannot say the same. I'm sorry to say but personally I believe Nagar Kirtans are a huge waste of time here, albeit not in every city but the majority are. Mele and Gatka displays are generally part of Nagar Kirtans. I see your point but I feel it is actually well off point in regards to the topic being discussed. I'm talking about festivals/days of celebrations, not day to day. What you're describing is probably true for 1% of those who follow Rehat, apart from that it's just idealism. Yes kids are ignorant, that was my point, they are ignorant to the facts, hence, everything I said in my post. This all makes sense although, again, I do not see how it relates to the matter being discussed. I'm talking about formal celebration of the day itself, traditions! Something to mark the day. Sikhs as a whole do not have enthusiasm when it comes to their own celebrations. Then we b!tch and moan when kids don't know about it, or don't want to celebrate it, or when the day in question is sidelined because it is perceived as boring - Sakhis and Ithiaas only go so far.

no one is the same or worse than the catholics ...we have no priesthoods, celibate worship, idol worship, personal aggrandisment in the eyes of sangat or rampant child abuse ...so please not draw such comparisons . we have mela , nagar kirtans, gatka displays, hola mohalla, dussehra , smagams galore, loads of celebrations maybe you have chosen to forget those the rehit gives structure and rhythm to our lives via habit , the gratitude attitude becomes a habit as does the naam in our hearts, listening to great kirtan opens our minds and souls to the beauty in the cosmos , develops our brains frequencies and processing powers ...kids are IGNORANT until informed so saying what you said makes no real point ... I knew about christianity because our primary school used to read parables to us each assembley and we used to sing hymns, do the nativity at christmas , but the fact that my parents also told me about Guru Nanak Dev ji and all Guru Sahiban via sakian which was similar but yet more appealing because they were instantly more relatable, caring and loving than these preachy sermons . Kids respond to what they know of Akal Purakh in their hearts and the bible/Torah/quran/vedas/geeta/shastras can never come closer. Guru Sahiban even gave us the formula of how to get the kids into Sikhi but we still won't do it - just tell them the history and sakhian of their spiritual ancestors

Is celebrating Christmas among Punjabis/Sikhs/South Asians common in the UK? Because I feel it’s a UK thing as it is really rare to celebrate Christmas for South Asians (except the Christian SA) in the Americas. Here we don’t know two hoots about Jesus, other than the fact that he was nailed to a cross. No tree, no gift giving, no special dinners, none of that is done here among our community. Sure kids wait in anticipation for Santa Claus, but they never have a clue about the religious significance of the day. Do British schools enforce Christian teachings in the classroom and is it compulsory?

It's all relative. A drug epidemic in an country that is independent is quite different and less dangerous for that country than one in a state that has a bare Sikh majority and that is controlled by an oppressive government of another community and which is hell bent on destroying the Sikh population by all means at its disposal. And the Khalsa Aid muppets think that using the Sangat's funds in Punjab is only appropriate if there is an earthquake there! These muppets don't understand that there is an earthquake of farmer suicides, drug addiction, pollution and cancer in Punjab every month and yet these arrogant people are off to 'waste money in areas where tens of millions is being spent by other larger charities. You are right that KA is now all about marketing and collecting money. I am sure they work on some formula that one image of a Nishan Sahib raised in a far flung place is worth many thousands of pounds in donations as are images and videos of their volunteers in KA t-shirts giving out food to refugees. What is interesting is that they use their posts on facebook to ask for donations when they have £2.5 million in their bank account. At a time when our community is under siege in Punjab and the likelihood is that Sikhs will lose their majority in Punjab in the next few decades we need to make sure that every penny of the Sangat's money is used wisely and ONLY in ensuring that it is used for the welfare of Sikhs. That is why apart from other charities working with Sikligars etc, the only other charity I donate to is Sikh Relief. This used to be mainly help Sikh prisoners in India and their families but has since started to expand to organising Gurmat camps, dastar tying camps and other Sikh parchar activities. These people are the ones that are making an effort to raise the next Sikh generation. I would put the difference between this charity and KA in blunt terms as Sikh relief is raising the next Sikh generation while Khalsa Aid is raising the next Muslim generation!

Ranjit Singh made them his own. He trusted them as their kin. Many Dogras are still Sikhs, so they are our own. Punjabi =/=Sikh

How is this new? Isn’t it always our own that cause us the most pain?

Akalifauj - people like you why I rarely visit this site and why people don't come into our beautiful religion. I've mentioned here and will mention it again - I'm no fan of any jathebandi and am just a regular guy who follows no one apart from dhan dhan Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji. What I am against is Sikhs killing other Sikhs and preventing Sikhi from growing. Learn how to follow the creator rather than a jathebandi.

This thread is still going....yawn

I agree, wearing the kalgi and allowing people to matha tek was a huge mistake. This is what I was trying to explain earlier, we hype things too much as the sangat. On that note Dhumma is no better, who is he to throw his weight around and order the killing of fellow SIKH BROTHERS. You don't see Bhai Guriqbal Singh behaving like that?

My mum had to have a bath once a week, eat bhartha everyday yet she hated it, light a charcoal fire at 12 to get roti ready for 1. The dishes were washed sitting down on a khura and it is so difficult to bend when pregnant. Women used to tell her ' this is how you got treated and yet she never gossiped about her sas. After an year however her sas moved out so she had peace forever until we came here. Then roles got reversed and everything her sas did to her got done to the sas. All lekhe complete and the lady left for her heavenly abode. My bro and sis always warned me against being mean to my MIL. They saw this <banned word filter activated> for tat repayment to my grandma happening and they understood the importance of being supportive to each other and living as a family with good wishes for each other. My own MIL was angry with me once. I went to tell her sorry and she was doing path on the SGGS. She told me dhorja and it became true. If she had blessed me something else we would all never have had to see that stupid dhukh. A lady once told me - my sas and me were hugging each other and crying when we were going to be separated. We used to read asa dhi vaar together on vaja every morning. We were both going to miss that. These days no sas and DIL get along together. How true that sentence of hers was.

They probably do to some degree. I don't think it's really the same thing however. Dhadi vaaran get you riled up and make you want to get vengance. Think there is probably some krodh in there rather than pure bir ras. Plus they aren't Maharaaj's Pavitar Uchaaran. I see where you are coming from though.

They also got their Bir Ras directly from Guru Sahib when the situation called for it. Guru Gobind Singh Ji knew they would be the last in the line of human Gurus, hence, they compiled Sri Dasam Granth for the generations to come. So yeah I think you were pretty spot on about Dasam Bani!

dont follow this guys advice on lust. Telling others they can have sex many times and not be lustful. This is completely wrong. This advice is not coming from Gurbani but is his own beliefs. Also doing paath in a quiet room is very good. A person is able to concentrate on the paath being read and absorb themselves in the paath. Also many Gursikhs have a place where they like doing paath. This place sometimes is outside of the house and away from family life. Perfectly fine to do. Some go near a body of water. Some go to a park. Some go to the Gurdwara. No family member will go with you at the end. They don't feel like doing paath, then don't let them be the block from you doing paath. They like wasting time watching dirty shows and movies and listening to dirty music. We Sikhs like going to a quiet place to praise Akal Purakh.

We're complaining that our children, and adults for that matter, don't celebrate our own festivals or occasions. Why is that? It's because there is no formalised celebration(s). There is no ritual involved, no symbolism, no set traditions, no outward celebration. There is not really any sense of belonging, togetherness, or that community atmosphere. Just a trip to the Gurdwara, and in many cases the ensuing guilt trip by the Kathakaars. Constant condescension and pessimism doesn't get us anywhere. We're worse than the Catholic Church! It's all well and good to bang on about inward reflection, everyday is the same, what the day really means, Guru Sahibs message etc etc etc, but the fact is though we are human, and humans need ritual to some extent, need order, some kind of structure. Majority of kids couldn't care less about what the day means, they need it to have some significance on a more basic level, then when they are older naturally they will inquire about the day, find out the true meaning. Even adults need this to some degree. The biggest and most popular festival on the Sikh calendar is Diwali (whether you like it or not). Ever wondered why that is??? Oh I forgot some people are also trying eradicate any fun and excitement from that too. This is where the anti-ritual, anti-imagery, and Hinduphobic attitude has landed us.

You said the following: You said after reading Chandi Vaar you felt like fighting for righteousness and a person can't go to sleep after reading Chandi di Vaar after sunset. Dasam Bani root is Mool Mantar and Bir Ras comes from santokh. So how would Bir Ras not let a person sleep if Chandi di Vaar is read after sunset and comes from santokh? Lets make it even more clear. When Sri Guru Hargobind sahib ji and his Sikhs were fighting wars. There was no Dasam Bani, so where did Sikhs get Bir Ras from? Were they devoid of Bir Ras, if so, did they lose every war? Bir Ras starts with Ik Onkar and is based on no fear and no hatred, which translates into santokh. All these misconceptions created of Sri Dasam Granth Sahib ji have no sound statements to stand on.

In another topic you said the following about the children of Sri Guru Gobind Singh Ji, who wanted to have more Shastar on them in a Gurdwara: so you don't want children of Sri Guru Gobind Singh ji to practice keeping shastar as directed by Sri Guru Gobind Singh ji. But you will go against gurmat to make your children happy and not feel left out. Sri Guru Gobind Singh ji made it clear not to celebrate Holi and to celebrate Holla Maholla. Don't throw color on each other. Practice Shastar vidiya. Also how do you celebrate Christmas when the Khalsa panth is remembering the shaheeds and focused on Sri Guru Gobind Singh ji gurpurab. Talk about not knowing your Sikh history.

We're not gonna agree on the first point you made so leave that one there. As for the roza comment, well I deliberately picked fesitvals which are celebrated by all, including the non-religious despite having religious or spirtual origins. To point out that it's just a generic celebration, just like Christmas is. I do as much as I can do when given the oppurtunity. Rest is not up to me. Baki Rabb Jaane.

There's plenty of kids from religious families who are not religious as adults, and plenty from non-religious families who are religious as adults. The info is out there. Take it or leave it. On the other hand, maybe there should be more prachaar about celebrating it, and where one stands if they do.

I don't think it's about appeasing the crowd. I think we read into celebrating Christmas too much. That is just my opinion though. In celebrating something you can celebrate it as an observer or non-observer; even most white people are non-observers in this respect. For example, if I lived in Israel I would celebrate Hanukkah. I would probably buy a Menorah too and generally join in the festivities. Doesn't make me Jewish becasue I wouldn't be celebrating for the same reasons as an observant Jew. Or if I lived in Mexico I would celebrate Day of the Dead. I would probably buy a skull or some other imagery relating to it and have a family meal as they do. Doesn't mean I'm a Pagan or a Catholic nor does it mean I'm worshipping the dead or making offerings to them. Same for say Chinese New Year - the red banners, envelopes, gifts, food, watch performances, do fireworks. But I do not follow Chinese Folk Religion. I'm sure you get the picture. None of this would make me any less of a Sikh nor would it weaken my Sikhi.

You did not tell me what Bir ras is. Here I will quote your post so you can highlight where you told me what Bir ras is exactly. All you have said it is different than shaant-ras. That can meaning thing but shaant-ras.

Why would I not do paath of Sri Guru Gobind Singh ji's Bani?

Please provide me with what Bir Ras is.

BAR DO ALAM SHAH GURU GOBIND SINGH KHASAM RA JAN KAH GURU GOBIND SINGH ਕਬਿਤੁ ॥ Kabitu ॥ KABIT ਸੰਕਟ ਹਰਨ ਸਭ ਸਿਧਿ ਕੀ ਕਰਨ ਚੰਡ ਤਾਰਨ ਤਰਨ ਅਰੁ ਲੋਚਨ ਬਿਸਾਲ ਹੈ ॥ Saankatta Harn Sabha Sidhi Kee Karn Chaanda Taaran Tarn Aru Lochan Bisaala Hai ॥ The large-eyed Chandika is the remover of all sufferings, the donor of powers and support of the helpless in ferrying across the fearful ocean of the world ੨੪ ਅਵਤਾਰ ਕ੍ਰਿਸਨ - ੭/੧ - ਸ੍ਰੀ ਦਸਮ ਗ੍ਰੰਥ ਸਾਹਿਬ ਆਦਿ ਜਾ ਕੈ ਆਹਮ ਹੈ ਅੰਤ ਕੋ ਨ ਪਾਰਾਵਾਰ ਸਰਨਿ ਉਬਾਰਨ ਕਰਨ ਪ੍ਰਤਿਪਾਲ ਹੈ ॥ Aadi Jaa Kai Aahama Hai Aanta Ko Na Paaraavaara Sarni Aubaaran Karn Partipaala Hai ॥ It is difficult to know her beginning and end, she emancipates and sustains him, who takes refuge in her, ੨੪ ਅਵਤਾਰ ਕ੍ਰਿਸਨ - ੭/੨ - ਸ੍ਰੀ ਦਸਮ ਗ੍ਰੰਥ ਸਾਹਿਬ ਅਸੁਰ ਸੰਘਾਰਨ ਅਨਿਕ ਦੁਖ ਜਾਰਨ ਸੋ ਪਤਿਤ ਉਧਾਰਨ ਛਡਾਏ ਜਮ ਜਾਲ ਹੈ ॥ Asur Saanghaaran Anika Dukh Jaaran So Patita Audhaaran Chhadaaee Jama Jaala Hai ॥ She destroys the demons, finishes various types of desires and saves from the noose of death ੨੪ ਅਵਤਾਰ ਕ੍ਰਿਸਨ - ੭/੩ - ਸ੍ਰੀ ਦਸਮ ਗ੍ਰੰਥ ਸਾਹਿਬ ਦੇਵੀ ਬਰੁ ਲਾਇਕ ਸੁਬੁਧਿ ਹੂ ਕੀ ਦਾਇਕ ਸੁ ਦੇਹ ਬਰੁ ਪਾਇਕ ਬਨਾਵੈ ਗ੍ਰੰਥ ਹਾਲ ਹੈ ॥੭॥ Devee Baru Laaeika Subudhi Hoo Kee Daaeika Su Deha Baru Paaeika Banaavai Graanth Haala Hai ॥7॥ The same goddess is capable of bestowing the boon and good intellect by her Grace this Granth can be composed.7. ੨੪ ਅਵਤਾਰ ਕ੍ਰਿਸਨ - ੭/(੪) - ਸ੍ਰੀ ਦਸਮ ਗ੍ਰੰਥ ਸਾਹਿਬ

What is Bir Ras? From your post it shows you have felt it before.

1. If you are doing chandi di vaar in the morning then you don't have to follow the dhoop deep maryada but it is good to do so 2. The first adhyae of sri shaster naam mala is only about an ang long in sri dasam granth, but there are 5 adhyaes which are equal to around 90 sri dasam granth angs. We normally just read the first section in the gutka Sahib's. But there are other parts like paans naam, baan naam and other weapon names. 3. Don't know.