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Communal violence? Sikhs in Pakistan are miniscule in amount. How many Sikhs are there in the NWFP and should they get the heck out of there? If I was a billionaire, I would do a Schindler and get every Sikh out of these jihad infested places.

I think the short term future is to vacate these far out places, like Buner and Swat, where the govt power is extremely limited. Taliban movement is very strong in these places. At the moment places like Peshawar and Attock are a lot better. Long term plan, if things settle down, (which is highly unlikely) is for Sikhs to start shifting assets and families to Lahore or other places os safety. Even writing that makes me think, what places in Pakistan are actually safe. What a mess these people have made of their country.

So let me get this straight. You wanted evidence so I gave you it but suddenly its all too much? I've just presented you with evidence from multiple sources, one of whom comes from a Sikh of Guru Gobind Singh Ji. All of whom just said that Farid Ji met Guru Nanak Dev Ji and he ISN'T the same one as the on residing in the 12th Century. At-least have the balls to admit you were wrong. eh have you ever bothered reading Anand Sahib? There's an entire pauri there devoted to the topic of listening to the Guru, and the Guru made every sikh drink Amrit. So tell me again how my definition of Sikh is wrong when its the very one that Guru Gobind Singh Ji followed. This whole "definition of a Sikh" is getting off topic. The point of this thread was to point out Farid Ji was a Sikh. If you wish to discuss this then make a new thread. I have exams so I won't be answering anymore, however the Sangat here share my views so I'm sure they'll answer you just fine.

you know there is something called an Index? Page 89. The same is mentioned in Bhai Mani Singh Ji's JanamSakhis, so will you now argue that Bhai Mani Singh Ji didn't know what he was talking about? My definition is the one laid out by Guru Sahib. Cry all you want but you're fallible, Guru Sahib isn't.

You keep repeating the same thing yet you provide no evidence for anything you say. Right. Continue to flaunt hot air, if Labels were so bad then why does Bhai Gurdas Ji use them, why does Gurbani use them. "systematically undermine it" Don't make me laugh. You tried to assert Farid Ji wasn't a Sikh and that went badly. Now you have evidence that you were talking about the wrong Farid Ji so you decide to just ignore it and say "i can undermine it" ok then kiddo.

MY proposition is flawed? ok then. Please go through that post bit by bit and point out where the flaws are, point out where in that quote that this Farid wasn't the contemporary of Guru Nanak Dev Ji. You simply decided off the top of your head that it was the Baba from 350 years ago. So prove it. All you do is making sweeping statements and have nothing to back it up. I'm not even raging, I'm just baffled someone is so clueless about the very history they come here to discuss. http://www.vidhia.com/Bhai Veer Singh Ji/Puratan Janam Sakhi Shri Guru Nanak Dev Ji-Bhai Vir Singh Punjabi.pdf Here you go. Purtan Jaman Sakhis from the 19th Century done by a Historian who also agrees with me. So please, go on. Refute him and dissect his evidence.

So basically you want evidence, you get evidence and then you throw a hissy fit because it completely negates your viewpoint. Ok then. Enjoy your time, I think you have some major issues to deal with.

I recommend you read Gurbani then. There's ample on the subject, Look up Maskeen Ji on youtube, he's done videos on it (yes he happens to be proficient in Sikh History and all the Granths out there).

The argument that non-duality can be applied to anything other than true followers of God is rather stale and false. Fact- Gurbani said that Muhammad got lost in Maya, if the very leader of a faith is lost in Maya, so are the followers. You claim everything is within God so my argument is just fine. You claimed that its possible to be a Muslim and and a Sikh, I pointed out it wasn't. Gurbani itself has criticised Islam, yet you seem so keen on pushing that "labels" are meaningless. If you asked any Mahapurkh who they were they'd say a Sikh of Guru Nanak, Guru Gobind Singh Ji described God as his "Guru" thus he was also a "Sikh ". The stupidity of your argument that labels are meaningless is almost as hilarious as your argument that you can be a Sikh and a Muslim.Everything is 1-onakar as you put it, so uhm no. By your logic all of it is extremely fine as its all just God. Blind Faith as you so nicely seem to think is the belief that everything about a certain thing is completely perfect. I do believe that Gurbani is completely perfect, that's an application of Blind Faith. Don't you? If you don't then I dare say you're not a Sikh at all. Once again Bani is being misconstrued by you. Bani tells us to find the truth through rationality WITH the help of a Guru. A teacher, if the teacher is wrong then the student is almost certainly wrong too. Every Single person in the whole of history who entered Sachkhand or even experienced God was enlightened by Guru Nanak Dev Ji himself.

No, no, no. No amount of justifications and "scholarly interpretations" can explain away the founder of a major faith kissing little boys' penises. Try that with the mentally ill and gullible, not with me.

Yes unfortunately that's the way of the world and negative side affects in the freedom struggle alot of blood is shed needlessly.... for other smaller nations to rise the dominant big nations/empires need to fall usually by having wars with other big nations/empires.

If you can't do it in one sitting, then it's ok to do what you can and carry on the rest in another sitting.

"Instead of advocating that young Sikhs catch flights to Delhi to begin armed struggle we need to be sensible. We need to form jatha's at pind level that drugs are not openly sold and consumed and keep a lid on alcohol sales and consumption. Instead of giving money to dubious organisations advocating armed struggle verbally (but secretly unwilling to leave their luxurious lives in the West) we need to prioritise young Sikh children in Punjab actually getting a good education and becoming literate as only with educated youth will the Panth's future have the knowledge to avoid being treated unfairly as illiterates are at disadvantage to GOI bureaucrats. So long as caste divisions in Gurughars exist and people continue to support or tolerate matrimonial apartheid then there is no realistic prospect of overturning GOI discrimination as divide+rule tactics can easily be employed on weak caste-minded people. Money needs to be invested in Punjab by overseas Sikhs in order to generate employment for the youth as each job can uplift a family out of poverty. As so long as Sikh families struggle with daily survival it will be too hard for them to think of anything else. Overall India's economy is now growing at a faster rate than China's whilst Punjab continues to be a laggard economically. The weaker Punjab is economically compared to those that discriminate against Sikhs the weaker our ability to combat their anti-Sikh discrimination. The Sikh fetility rate is below replacement level and female infanticide is at disgraceful levels in Punjab. On top of that Sikhs have internalised Hindutva propaganda that only Amritdhari Gursikhs (around 3% of the Punjab population) are Sikhs so that anti-Sikh forces can define Sikhs as a permanent democratic minority. Only by including all Gurdwara Sangat and all sehajdhari Sikhs within the Panth will the Sikh Panth ever have a democratic voice. The Sikh Panth needs to ensure the democratic removal of Badal in 2017 and the best party currently with which to achieve that is the AAP given how all 4 MP's in Malwa are AAP. We need to lobby for H.S. Phulka Ji to be given the AAP Punjab Chief Minister ticket for 2017. I genuinely believe 5-10 years of leadership by a sincere Gursikh like H.S.Phulka can transform Punjab and strengthen the state of Sikhi in Punjab. Before too many start fantasizing about taking one way tickets to Punjab to launch armed struggle against a terrorist state with 1000 times greater resources and ammunition which is backed and supported by the USA, Russia, UK, Canada, China, France, Australia for trade and business reasons, we need to not take our eyes off the fact that Sikhs are projected to be a minority in Punjab by the time of 2021 census due to the Balmiki and Dera Ballan apartheid mandir franchises aiming to convert 5 million Sikhs into tomorrow's Hindutva votebank (as Doaba is already an area of Punjab where Sikhs are now a minority)." -SukhaSinghMehtab2015 What he said is very true indeed, all of that needs to be fixed before people try creating Khalistan.

Bro, you must've been j@cking off all day if you've devoted so much time to developing a system to combat it!

If only India didn't have a Rothschild central bank, then there might be a possibility of destabilising the country and splitting it up into smaller ethnic states. As it stands, India is nothing more than a puppet state of the West. It's protected. Forget independence and the myth about Indian democracy, it's rubbish.

Did you even bother to read the quote from Bilija Singh I put up? Clearly not.

ਸੁਣੀ ਪੁਕਾਰਿ ਦਾਤਾਰ ਪ੍ਰਭੁ ਗੁਰੁ ਨਾਨਕ ਜਗ ਮਾਹਿ ਪਠਾਇਆ। "ਚਰਨ ਧੋਇ ਰਹਰਾਸਿ ਕਰਿ ਚਰਣਾਮ੍ਰਿਤ ਸਿਖਾਂ ਪੀਲਾਇਆ || He literally says, Guru Nanak Dev Ji made his Sikhs drink Charan Pahul Amrit. If it was un-necessary he wouldn't have done it. If you want to learn about the importance of Amrit read this. http://www.vidhia.com/Bhai Randheer Singh Ji/Meaning-of-amrit.pdf

If you believe he was a Sikh then as Bhai Gurdas Ji said he must have taken Charan Pahul as it was mandatory to become a Sikh.

What an absolutely stupid thing to say. If Baba Buddha Ji wasn't a Sikh in your book then that's fine. That quote alone says that all Sikhs of Guru Nanak took Charan pahul. If that excludes Baba Buddha Ji because you can't seem to see him as a Sikh then please the fault is in you.

Not much information given, but if she has a great personality you should see her background, like her grades or something (if possible) what are her interests? And does she have citizenship in the country you are in?

They're not Social clubs, most of them have Libraries, and TV's that shows Sikhi History, people do Seva and can eat in the langar regardless of who you are, there should be a English translation in most Gurdwaras nowadays, you should watch Basic of Sikhi if you're a English Native, The Langar is for everyone regardless of their wealth, and they all have Donations and Donation Boxes for African Aids and India and other things, there is many times where a Local Gurdwaras raises money for a cause, and you will notice a lot of events for charities during festivals, about the Gossip, some people do come there to Gossip and talk but mainly when they're eating in the Langar hall or to Reunite with old friends due to Circumstances, but you will find many listening to Paath and understand what is being said or you will say classes in session but it all depends on which Gurdwara you go to, and how old / new it is since that will play in a factor on how modernized and developed it is

They're not Social clubs, most of them have Libraries, and TV's that shows Sikhi History, people do Seva and can eat in the langar regardless of who you are, there should be a English translation in most Gurdwaras nowadays, you should watch Basic of Sikhi if you're a English Native, The Langar is for everyone regardless of their wealth, and they all have Donations and Donation Boxes for African Aids and India and other things, there is many times where a Local Gurdwaras raises money for a cause, and you will notice a lot of events for charities during festivals.

I think you should focus on doing Paath and visit the Gurdwara more often, do some Seva, and if you're a English native watch the Youtube channel Basic of Sikhi, remember all the Shaheeds and the Guru's sacrifice.

We just established that Guru Nanak Dev Ji can manifest anywhere and anytime he wants. Do you actually think it takes mental acrobatics to conclude that Guru Nanak Dev Ji appeared to Farid Ji? If you want evidence that Baba Buddha then please pick up any historical Granth pre-1900. I'm really done here, its apparent you're either purposely being thick or simply too dim. I'll assume its the former.

Charan Pahul Amrit was done to all Sikhs who wished to enter the house of Nanak. Stop telling lies now. Guru Angad Dev Ji received the Gurgaddi, in the form of Bhai Lehna Ji he had taken Charan Pahul too.

Guru Nanak Dev Ji physically manifested in Talwandi, however he's more than capable of manifesting and showing himself to ANYONE who desires to meet him with a true heart. Sri Guru Nanak Dev Ji = Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji. The bani that all the Bhagats wrote after they received Amrit is what became Gurbani, Guru Nanak Dev Ji has infinite forms. He came to Bhagat Dhanna Ji as a handsome male, He appeared out of Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji for Sant Isher Singh Ji. Restraining him to one form or one time is narrow minded.

Bhagat Dhanna met God in the form of a male. Are you going to argue its impossible for that to have happened? God and the Guru are one, always active through the ages.

I really think you need to start reading Gurbani, If the concept of Guru Nanak Dev Ji being around well before his avtar in Talwandi is alien to you then I have no idea why you keep coming on here to lecture others about various things.

How do you know they never met them in person? as I already said before Guru Nanak Dev Ji has been active through the ages. All of them were blessed with Amrit through God. There's actually records of Guru Nanak Dev Ji meeting Bhagat Kabir Ji and meetings with the various Bhagats. Guru Nanak Dev Ji isn't restrained by time. The Bhagats themselves were a special case as they were chosen to impart portions of Gurbani to the world. Read the Bani of all the Bhagats, they all mention Satguru. So tell me who is the Satguru of this age?

He actually did, Sikhs of Guru Nanak Dev Ji took Charan Paul Amrit which was essentially a declaration of them belonging to him. Guru Gobind Singh Ji did. So please, there were prerequisites. Anyone (as in a person) can join, no certain group is prohibited so please. This isn't an oxymoron. Asking questions is one thing, now you're simply challenging the very rehit laid out by Guru Gobind Singh Ji.

I'm not raging at you. Anyone can join. The only requirement is following the one Supreme God and accepting Guru Nanak Dev Ji's jyot as the only guiding lamp in this dark age; What's so difficult about that prerequisite? Anyone, regardless of "caste" , race, sex, sexuality etc are all free to enter the House of Nanak. You seem to want create a problem from anything.

Where have I stated that? I made the point that using that argument is completely wrong. By saying that to just about everything you can justify or completely criminalise anything you want. Stab someone? its ok, steal something? that's all cool, right and wrong exist on this plane of existence, the only person devoid of it is God himself. Using the whole "true" argument is completely wrong, further more there is nothing exclusive about Sikhi, even those who weren't Sikhs end up being reborn purely for 1 thing and that's the gift of Amrit, they then move on and enter Sachkhand, like it or not but the House of Nanak is the only shining light in Kalyug. Anyone can join, there's no requirement. In Kalyug the only way to get to God is through Gurbani, all the enlightened Bhagats did this. In various other Yugs things were different (slightly).

LOL HAW HAW HAW

When my Internet should happen to be off for one reason or another, I'm not able to access sikhsangat.com, so, yes, I do realize it is online. The question is, how does that change what I said? Does being online mean the forum can run with no members? Does being online mean the forum can run with no rules? And you still haven't answered 1) why Sukhvirk76 doesn't have to follow established rules if even Guru Gobind Singh ji does. 2) And if he's special. 3) And (a new question): if Sukhvirk76 is special, in what way is he special?

Thank you so much for your kind words. I think it's safe to say that I've disagreed with most all of you on one point or another (whether by posting or just in my mind). But we're not talking about that. We're talking about engaging honestly on this forum with rules applying evenly to all (including those you agree with or disagree with). Secondly, thanks for whoever liked my post above enough to give make it a "popular" post. I'm quite humbled. But that in itself demonstrates what I'm talking about: If it's allowed for people to manipulate multiple accounts, what prevents anyone from liking a post using multiple sock-puppet accounts that he himself controls? The very ability of forum members to interact earnestly is threatened if you don't follow the rules.

What on earth does that have to do with anything? By your stupid logic I could say Aztec practices are just as fine because "1 on-ankar" I think you're either mentally disturbed or simply really thick. I've actually read portions of the Vedas, I've read Gurbani and im in the process of reading the Quran. So yes, I've tried my hardest to draw a proper conclusion based on empircal facts. What the actual hell lol? labels? lmao. the word Sikh or Gursikh is used hundred of times, that's a label you muppet. I already know what verse you're referring to and that verse was Guru Nanak Dev Ji instructing Muslims on how to lead a pious life, the same Gurbani also says that Muslims are 1 eyed and unable to see God. So please. Try again. Same, I've yet to meet someone who spams reply because putting everything together seems too much mental strain for him.

I'm astounded!

LOL what do you mean proper beliefs.. Read bani.. It will tell what a proper Muslim is or for that matter what a proper Sikh is.. Not someone who is who is obsessed with common labels.. Khoj.. A tribe called quest.

Yeah. It is reported that Sant ji used to do numerous Japji Sahibs throughout the day while working his farm. Many pregnant women do multiple Japji Sahibs during the day to give spiritual succor to their babies. Of course, you should always do your first Japji Sahib in the early morning, in accordance with maryada.

I've asked you to explain to me how someone can be a Sikh of Guru Nanak but also call him a false prophet, how someone can consider the Quran the sole authority of God but also say that Gurbani is the same lmao. Rather than posting 1 sentence answers, maybe explain it a bit?

My logic is fine. If you think you can recite the oath to Muhammad and still be a Sikh then please explain to me how? The very oath says any other religion is false..by reciting it you say Sikhism and Guru Nanak Dev Ji are false. So tell me how someone can be a Sikh of Guru Nanak and a follower of Muhammad. Tell me how a reciter of the Quran which considers itself the ONLY authority from God also sit there and say Gurbani is the same. That's called Blasphemy is Islam. So no. try again.

Actually true gyan is beyond mind. Mind is there to keep the duality illusion going. True or taat gyan is beyond mind or to see things as they are you have to be out of your mind logic and reason.

Exactly. Since the world is experiencing Islamic terror seemingly non-stop since 2001, everyone (including us) wants to know what X has to say about Islam. But we should trust that Guru Sahib knows not just our current needs for the early 21st century, but for all eternity.

Friend, I have not encountered a single translation with broken English. The translations might not be leet-speak, rapper-talk, or whatever else is spoken on the mean streets of Harlem or Manchester, but that does not mean there is any problem with sentence structure, syntax, or grammar in those translations. Let's not dis our people for no reason. Do you have any extensive quotations from translations you consider broken English?

I think in the end we just have to accept that Guru is Satguru, and has the right to decide what to do (not like people who loudly ask why does Bachittar Natak not mention Pir Budhu Shah?). That said, I think it's OK to speculate, and some Sikhs have said the reason is simply that Guru Sahib did not think the Arabian Prophet's book was worth Their time. I disagree that Guru Sahib was forgiving of the Quran. The only possible neutral statement is "jhoota jo na bichare", but that's basically a call to be knowledgeable, which is really inarguable.

Here is an old write-up by someone posted on this form many years ago. Even the present head of Baba Farid Jee’s spiritual order Prof. Khalil Nizami says the bani in Guru Granth Sahib Jee is that of Farid Sani. Bhai Vir Singh Jee, Prof. Teja Singh Jee, and Budh Singh all agree to this opinion that the Bani written in Guru Granth Sahib jee is that of Farid Sani the contemporary of Guru Nanak Dev Jee, and not Baba Farid the Afghan who lived during the 12th century. The proof of Baba Farid Jee meeting Guru Nanak Dev Jee is his Bani. Fareed Jee writes: JO GUR DASAY WAATH MUREEDA JOLEA|| (Asa sheikh farid 477) KAR KIRPA PRAB SAADHSANG MELEE|| (Farid soohi 794) Muslim sufis never use words such as Gur, Saadh or "Prabh". According to a book written by Prof. Khalil Nizami spiritual head of Baba Farid Jee’s spiritual order these words were written by Farid Sani because he was heavily influenced by Guru Nanak Dev jee, this is confirmed by the writer of "Swanay Farid". Proof from Janamsakhis, then ponder on the following Janamsakhi which mentions Guru Jee meeting with Farid Jee: SRI GURU BABA AUTHOU CHALIA| RAAVI CHANOU DEKH KAR AUJARH PAI CHALIA| PATTAN DESH AIE NIKALIA| PATTAN TO KOS TIN AUJARH THI, AUTHAY AIE BAITHAA| MARDANA NAAL AAHA, PATTAN DHA PIR SHEIKH FARID THA TISKAY TAKHT SHEIKH BRAM (IBRAHIM) THA| (Puraatan Janam Sakhi) -Besides this Janamsakhi, another Janamsakhi by the name of “Meherban Vali Janamsakhi” tells of a story of when Baba Farid jee once went to collect wood and there he also ran into Guru Nanak Dev Jee reciting the following Gurbani Tukhs: APAY PATTEE KALAM AAP, UPAR LEKH BHI THU|| EKO KAHIAE NANAKAA, DOOJA KAHAY KOO|| (Malar dhi vaar M: 1 -1291) -Another Janamsakhi which is now safely at Guru Nanak Dev University taken from the UK also mentions a meeting between Guru Nanak Dev Jee and Baba Farid jee. -Another Janamasakhi, Bhai Mani Singh Jee vali Janamsakhi mentions a meeting between Guru Nanak Dev Jee and Baba Farid Jee. I have given names of four different Janamsakhis all mentioning Baba Farid jee meeting with Guru Nanak Dev Jee. 1) All Pakistani scholars agree that this Baba Farid jee did not write any baani at all. He was not a poet. 2) He was not a native of Punjab and as such could not have written such purely native countryside Punjabi. It is like asserting that Shakespeare was not English but a German writer. A non-English person could not have written what Shakespeare wrote. Same way, a non-Punjabi could not have written the kind of Punjabi that is in Gurbani under Baba Farid jee name. 3) The Punjabi used in Baba Farid jee’s baani in Siri Guru Granth Sahib jee is of the same time as Guru Nanak Sahib jee. All linguistics agree to this. If this baani had been written 300 years before Siri Guru Nanak Dev jee, it would have been drastically different. Just compare the Punjabi written today to Punjabi of Siri Guru Gobind Singh jee’s times. 4) Farid Shakarganj i.e. the Senior Farid, was a staunch Muslim who converted thousands of Hindus to Islam. He was very strict in Sharia and he would have never used non-Islamic words like “Saadh” in his baani. Now the question arises that if the baani in Siri Guru Granth Sahib jee was not written by Baba Farid Shakarganj then who is the writer of this baani? The answer is very simple. As written in the Janamsaakhis, the writer of this baani was Farid Saani, who was sitting on the gaddi of the original Farid. His name was Sheikh Ibrahim but he was also known as Farid Saani and it was he who met Siri Guru Nanak Dev jee Maharaaj. It is this Sheikh Ibrahim, whose spiritual thirst was quenched by Siri Guru Nanak Dev jee. He wrote the following shabad to Siri Guru Nanak Dev jee: soohee lalith || baerraa ba(n)dhh n sakiou ba(n)dhhan kee vaelaa || . bhar saravar jab ooshhalai thab tharan dhuhaelaa ||1|| hathh n laae kasu(n)bharrai jal jaasee dtolaa ||1|| rehaao || eik aapeenhai pathalee seh kaerae bolaa || dhudhhaa thhanee n aavee fir hoe n maelaa ||2|| kehai fareedh sehaeleeho sahu alaaeaesee || ha(n)s chalasee ddu(n)manaa ahi than dtaeree thheesee ||3||2|| This shabad of Baba Farid jee portrays the thirst of Baba jee very clearly. He is literally begging for spirituality. In response to this shabad, Siri Guru Nanak Dev jee wrote the following shabad: soohee mehalaa 1 || jap thap kaa ba(n)dhh baerrulaa jith la(n)ghehi vehaelaa || naa saravar naa ooshhalai aisaa pa(n)thh suhaelaa ||1|| thaeraa eaeko naam ma(n)jeet(h)arraa rathaa maeraa cholaa sadh ra(n)g dtolaa ||1|| rehaao || saajan chalae piaariaa kio maelaa hoee || jae gun hovehi ga(n)t(h)arreeai maelaegaa soee ||2|| miliaa hoe n veeshhurrai jae miliaa hoee || aavaa goun nivaariaa hai saachaa soee ||3|| houmai maar nivaariaa seethaa hai cholaa || gur bachanee fal paaeiaa seh kae a(n)mrith bolaa ||4|| naanak kehai sehaeleeho sahu kharaa piaaraa || ham seh kaereeaa dhaaseeaa saachaa khasam hamaaraa ||5||2||4|| He cries that “bhar Sarvar jabb uchhalai, tabb taran dulela” but Guru Baba jee says “Na sarvar na uchhalai, aisa panth suhela”. He says that his spiritual path is very hard but Siri Guru jee says that the Gurmat path is very easy and full of bliss. He says "BeRa bandh na sakhiyo" Siri Guru jee says, "Jap tap ka bandh beRla". He says that he has not been able to build his ship to swim across this ocean of world. Siri Guru jee says that if he has not build it yet, then he can now build the ship of Jap-Tap. What a great shabad Siri Guru jee's is! Just amazing. This shabad is most beautiful. I wish some gursikh sing this shabad and I may just listen to it till eternity. Just compare the two shabads and no one can deny that one was written in response to the other one. After hearing Siri Guru jee’s shabad, Farid Saani jee became disciple of Guru Nanak Paatshaah. There is no doubt about it. Sirii Guru jee and he met 3 times in total.