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10 gurus all men 15 bhagats with bani in SGGS all men 5 pyare all men Femenist & their supporters get over it & accept it instead of trying to alter sikhi to suit your own manmat ideas. Those asking for 'proof' from Guru Granth Sahib Ji that women can't be in punj pyare, can you give me proof from Guru Granth Sahib Ji that supports Kirpan, kanga, kara, kachera & kes maryada?? Khalsa maryada comes from Dasam Granth, Sarbloh Granth & rehitname Idiots ain't got a clue what the Khalsa is... the Khalsa is an ARMY.. not a social club.

Sadly, it looks like the majority of apnay actually aspire to this hording themselves, rather than condemning it.

Men are the sargun embodiment of Akal Purekh... women are the sargun embodiment of Adh Shakti... which is Akal Purekhs Shakti by which whole of sargun creation manifests itself. When the two come together (shiv-shakti) then creation expands. Adh Shakti has the ability to create but only on the hukam of Akal purekh. When Akal Purekh had a desire to became many from one he first manifested his Shakti (Adh Shakti). His desire to become many from one was manifest by Adh Shakti. A woman has the ability to create new life when she gives birth but can only do so when a man plants his seed (desire) inside her. The cosmic play of Akal Purek -Adh Shakti (Shiv-Shakti) has manifested in sargun form in the form of men & women. You have a lot to learn

Tell me why all 10 Gurus were men? tell me why all 15 Bhagats with gurbani in SGGS are all men? Tell me why all panj pyare were men? Most of the Gurus had more then 1 wife & in some cases had several wives... tell me how many wives had more then 1 husband? Tell me why all the the founders of all the major religions of the world were men? The truth is, men & women are equal in that they were both created by God but that's where the equality stops. They were created by God but created to fulfil different roles & duties....

Exactly.

So did pita ji ask for a Sikh's head, not that of a man or woman. But then there is something called surgun saroop, the panj pyare who stood up became the surgun saroop and now the male are used SIMPLY TO represent that surgun saroop, they obviously come from mothers with avasta. So there, this is the sewa a woman can do, give birth to great gursikh pyare by being a gursikh themselves. Also, I wonder why no sikh woman ever thought of having to mess with this part of sikhi, if I am not wrong, I have seen a woman commenting under a video of sant jarnail singh ji khalsa bhindranwale with the same name and logic, and tbh one of the reasons for this post. Read the history, read some books. (I don't even know what the masands have to do here)

So true. The thing is they're entitled to reap the benefits of their hard work, but i laugh when they start dropping pangtia from Gurbani in order to desperately justify their one-track obsession with accumulating as much as they can get their hands on. It's similar to when a Sikh has an unnatural and excessive liking for wearing and buying gold jewellery, and you remind them that Sikhi doesn't look favourably on the gratuitous indulgence of such vulgarities, and they respond with, "Leh! Sadhe Guru Sahib sohneh toh begher pherdeh si?" And then you remind them that Guru Sahib also sacrificed his father, mother, and four sons, and you ask them if they plan on emulating that aspect of their life, too. Not a peep in response, lol.

If they had cognitive dissonance over these things, we'd be closer to a solution, it's the fact that they don't that causes the issue. There is nothing wrong with success, but when this isn't married with strong ethical values, and a giving attitude towards your own society - we get all the mad issues we have in our community. Like UK Sikhs being very successful and affluent but ignoring rampant and widespread sexual abuse and exploitation of their own children at the same time. There is good reason to be wary of over-emphasising wealth when ignoring other important things turns the community into a living joke amongst those around us.

Are you saying that on Sikhi men and women have different strengths that compliment each other? That would mean Akal Purakh has created a balance. This would make sense as it is line with Sikhi.

The Gurus gave sikh women equality in terms of respect... they were not given complete gender equality which blurs the lines of which role(s) & attributes each gender has been created to fulfill. Sikh women and men are equal too the point that both were created by Akal Purekh.... that's as far as it goes. The roles & duties for each are seperate & distinct.

Yet no Sikh male says "I had a chain round my wife as we walked around guru Granth Sahib during the lavan. Yet you..... Sikh women have done that in the past and no doubt will do so in the future. No Sikh male stops their wife from doing these. Another trait of hers. talk abut women in the panj pyare sewa. get nowhere, no it's onto having babies and leadership roles. Don't be fooled by her serpent tongue.

Bro , you need to reattach to Guru ji because something got lost in translation... Guru ji says ALL come from the ONE , the ONE creates the HUKHAM and creation bends to it . These people you are so scatching on actually went through the fire to reach Guru ji's charan , she went through physical and sexual abuse thus left home instead of taking the coward's way out . Even though she went through it from SIKHs she never lost her connection with her Guru in her heart. It was 'sikhs' who destroyed her happiness, innocence and security and they did not try to support her in all those years before she met her husband. So I can understand her position , and she didn't just forget her Guru in worldly love , Guru ji gave her someone who could support through the pain of her past and get her to back to the path , they both had sanjog to become the Guru 's again . your analysis is tainted with lack of faith , understanding and truth.

your point was lost in your eagerness to score a win in your argument ...If you really believe you are ONE then do you need to be upset about who goes first ? You disrespected sikhi by attaching manmat soch to such a pavitar ceremony and really should have stopped well before . Did I say women are ONLY meant to produce children ? I didn't even say that they have to give birth , you can nurture Gursikhi in your life partner , in your friends, family members, even general society . If you have no spirituality, no jeevan, no karni how on Earth are you going to do that ? Do you not believe that our packed lives are not already blessed and complete with the jewel of Gursikhi ? I don't think I need to be in charge of anything to be complete ... I refuse to put down others to elevate myself this is not a sikh attitude

I meant women when I posted it. No other religions say that Gurmat sees women as subordinate. Stop your lying... of what? The greatest proof would have been if a woman was made Guru. And there it ends heopfully. You haven't got anything to add to this topic so just give this forum and all other forums a break. Work on yourself first. Good luck.

O twisted one, we are talking lavan and now you want to bring in amrit sinchar to it? Who said they did? It's you who is throwing this muck around that if the man steps one foot in front of his wife then he is the leader and she is subservient. No-one else here is saying that women are subservient, in Gurmat or otherwise. And if he wanted to drag you round all he had to do was put his back into it! To add to all the stupid things you have repeated on forums to the point pof making people vomit, this is one of the few that are equally hilarious. You are describing yourself as a noose around your husbands neck. How stupid is that? What do nooses do? They restrict breath until the victim dies. Is that what you really are? You can choose when to end your husbandds life? You have said some realy stupid things on this forum. I would give up whilst you are still a joke, rather than give up when you are a mental case. For the benefit of other readers, I would like to point out that the palla is not worn around the neck but over the shoulder. Neither does the female pulling on the palla achieve anything The man still still have total control of the palla. Even if the woman stands stil, all that will happen is the pala will fall from her hands. Something this harkiran creature did a long time ago, when she tried to place her own mat over the Guru's mat. And now your husbands a horse. Still his manure will go to mask the stench of manmat coming from you. There is no "may" about it. he was at tyhe front, you were behind hijm following in his EVERY footstep. And I couldn't care less about your married life. I feel sorry for your husband though, having to use his tail constantly to swat away all those flies and now there is one massive fly who won't stop buzzing. You haven't even progressed beyond the Panjabi alphabet in the last 20 years, how can you be reading any paath? By the way, there are people who say that women never took Khande ki pahul 100 years ago. So what?

She is the same person commenting on this video as well ...

Yes you lose all those. Because you are a stupid person you will beleive it. And on it goes. We are no talking about physical sarop. You have dragged that into it. We are talking about gender. You won't get away with your nonsense here. Other religions do not see us that way. It's really deceitful of you to try and play that card. You talk about Sri Guru Granth Sahib a lot, but yet haven't accepted the core principle of honesty. As I told yo on Sikhawareness, once you do, your life will become a lot better.

Faithless cynics have this idea the social structure of society did not allow women to play a leader role in society at the time of the Gurus, hence their was no women Guru's in Sikhi. Throughout Sikh history there have been women who took the lead in Sikh processions. Sikh women have been given leader roles by the Gurus. Sikh women took the leader role for Manji Sahib's. The faithless cynics argument is baseless. So why were their only Guru's who took the male form? Because Akal Purakh made it that way. As he commands things come into play. Akal Purakh also asked for heads on 1699. The people who stood up to this call were all men. Men only stood up because that's what Akal Purakh hukam (command) was. No one, but those 5 men would have stood up and given their head that day. Did not matter if their was a Sant sitting in the sangat on that day. Only those 5 men were commanded by Akal Purakh to stand up and present themselves to Sri Guru Gobind Singh Sahib ji. Bhai Jaita ji (after taking amrit became Bhai Jeevan Singh ji) was sitting in the sangat when the call was made by Sri Guru Gobind Singh Sahib ji. If you know the history of Bhai Jaita ji, you would understand the deep meaning of mentioning his name. Bhai Jaita ji was the one who risked his life and household to bring back Sri Guru Tegh Bahadur Sahib ji head to Sri Guru Gobind Singh Sahib ji. This Gurmukh was sitting in the sangat, do you not think he would have given his head for the next Guru, when he risked his life for the last Guru? We can play the "what if" game all day and nothing of value would become of it because we are not following Akal Purakh hukam to accept his decision. Do you think it was just by chance the five men who stood up, just happened to be from different caste? What do you take Akal Purakh to be some poker player?....I need 5 heads....Brahma bets 2 men and 3 women, Krishna bets 16000 women, shiva bets on one man? It was going to be 5 men in the position of Punj Pyare and that was his command. Jap ji Sahib says look at how many are singing Vaheguru's praises in so many different ways, but only those who follow his command are approved. The faithless cynics believe they are in control, I want to go left, I go left. It's all arrogant beliefs. Vaheguru's hukam can't be changed or altered. Vaheguru hukam is perfect.

Why are you guys entertaining this lost cause. She was causing a mess at Sikh awareness with her illogical posts. She has a problem. She has no true knowledge of Gurbani, Sikh history, or writings. She flaps her arms around hoping someone will pay attention to her. She has anger issues and self hate. Remember the cartoons where the cat holds the ticking bomb hoping it won't explode but it does all the time. She is the cat. The bomb will go off and she will self destruct.

WAHEGURU.

But it is though. A woman takes her husband's palla to follow him around Guru Granth Sahib. She is following in the footsteps he has already trodden. But your husband is all about equality. tell him when there is a next family wedding, to get the male to hold the females palla and follow her around the lavan, because it's not about leading is it? Wonder why you were silent about it on your own wedding day?

It's good to see that you are posting under your real name Harkiran, and not crying about others using your real name, because it could affect your real life. This harkiran used to post under the name of satkiran and cdnsikhgirl on sikhawareness.com . She posted the same drivel there for over a year that she has posted here. She had all the answers to her questions there but kept repeating the same until she was such a nuisance that no-one regretted her leaving. She has also been upto the same mischief on facebook, and youtube insulting Sri Dasme Patshahs Granth Sahib as and when she could. This is the same girl that created the topic insulting Sri Charitropakhyan only a while ago, and then had the mods remove her name, which she is using herself now. All of her statements below are stock statements/questions that she just copies and posts. You can answer her questions, she throw up some more, and then when you answer those, she'll repeat the first set. I want to provide some info for the benefit of other members here who, if confronted by nindaks like harkiran will know how to answer her. Even though she claims to have been studying sikhi for over 20 years, she cant even understand one sentence of Panjabi, so her understanding has all come from english sources. Women did initiate Sikhs by charan pahul, but this completely abolished in 1699. A new method of adminstering khande ki pahul was started, and it hasn't changed. This did not include women. So women giving charan pahul is no proof of women being able to give khande ki pahul. Moving onto the rehat maryada. This rehat maryada was forced on the panth under the guise of being panth parvan. It is true that many people did at some time or the other take part on these meetings, but in some of these meetings by the SGPC's own offical record, there were meetings where out of over a 100 invitees, there were only 4 or 6 or 10 people present. These people made the rehat maryada and it was forced on the panth. How can Sri Akal Takht "accept" anything? It doesn't put it's hands out to accept anything. Its the people in control of Sri Akal Takht who do the accepting. This harkiran character seems to thnk that Sri Akal Takht has accepted it therefore it can be the only true one. Also husband and wife do not make the same journey to Waheguru together. They help each other through their sangat to each other, but it's inaccurate to say that they both arrive at the same time. One can arrive earlier. Thye do not make the journey as ONE. Neither do they make the journey after their humans lives are complete as ONE either. Unless they unfortunately both pass away together ie accident. This is just wild speculation on her part. This paragraph a bove is a stock copy and paste from her. She shows her true feminazi agenda in insisting that if men do something different "they have a hold or priviledge over women", or if women do someting different "they are subservient to men". Now coming back to her precious rehat maryada, which allows women to participate as panj, i asked her probably about 2 years ago, to provide ONE instance where the SGPC had according to its own rehat maryada conducted a sinchar at Sri Akal Takht Sahib using a woman as part of the sewa. She wouldn't answer. The people who she is holding up as some kind of beacon or scholars won't even implement their own maryada themselves. Gurbani says nothing about giving khande ki pahul. So how can anyone explain the who the five should be made of according to Gurbani? Another stock statement. No-one is reducing the Guru's in any place. But they were male, whether they were one with Waheguru or not. And then on to the "guru had to be male because no-one would listen to female" nonsense. She threw up this response when she ws asked why all the Guru's were male, and if there were no Sikh women of Brahm gyan or turriya avastha in Guru Sahibs times. Ask yourselves would the Guru's have been afriad of something like this? Guru Harkrishan Sahib was baal guru. Yet people ten times his age obeyed him and saw no difference in the jyot of Guru Nanak Maharaj. No-one would have ignored the Guru's over their gender. Stock answer to anything she can't answer properly. This single light is restricted by hrakiran to men and women only. But it is more than that. This single light is the same light in every single living thing (and non-living thing) in the creation. So she was asked if this light means that we have to see every one with the same eye of equality, why can't gay marriages take place in Sikhi? Akal purakh is the chess board and the players. Akal Purakh is the male and the female. Akal Purakh is also in the third gender. Akal Purakh is also the animal and the vegetation. Akal Purakh is also the stones. So what? did harkiran give any of these other species any consideration for marriage? Or did she discriminate and select a man? She has taken amrit, but failed to see an act of discrimination at that very sinchar. At the beginning men are not allowed to wear pyjama but women are not allowed to remove pyjama. At the end, all the men have the name Singh, yet females have the name Kaur. Why can't women be called Singh? Moving onto anatomy for preparing amrit. After the passing of Guru Gobind Singh Ji Maharaj, Matas Sahib Deva and Mata Sundri give leadership and direction to the Panth, yet there is no record of either Mata taking part, or any other female taking part as panj sewa in any sinchar whatsoever. Both Matas were of the highest avastha. yet there is no mention of any such sinchar. You can argue with her all you like. She can't change. This is her first job, creating trouble for herself on social platforms. Admins keep an eye on her, sooner or later she will start on Sri Dasme Patshah's Granth. It wold have been better if she had been banned when she started that topic about Sri Charitropakhyan Granth a few weeks ago. Challo later is better than never.

Harkiran kaur bhenji, SGPC maryada is not the panthic maryada. It has not been accepted. I rather follow the maryada from taksal/dals that can be dated back to the times guru sahib. They don't show women as inferior, they just accept as he plays, they are filled with sant/mahapurkh when SGPC is filled with, nvrm.

bro ,itihassic records say that the crowds at Anandpur were over 35,000 and Dal historians say there were not many women present , would it not be harsh to condemn women on the basis that they were not 5 out 35,000 ? They are not any less Children of Guru Pita ji and often in our history been the sole carers and makers of mahaan gursikhs e.g. Bhai Taru Singh ji bros may consider being less condemning and more encouraging of your lost sisters ...return the favour

clean and hairless ? see how even you are using their language , kesh are not dirty if you bathe regularly . realise how those adverts seep into your subconcious so that we inadvertently use similar language ourselves. the way I am handling it with little Isher Kaur is explaining to her the jobs that her rom do for her, how it's part of her and she is lovely as Waheguru ji made her.

I wonder if this is deja vu with discussion about who can be the punj pyare. I am sure this has been discussed before.

a couple of vlogs That give me hope and :

course not they've had a humour bypass

suddenly gursikh bibian seem more appealing huh?

Is this the maryada from SGPC

Parents do not promote amrit to their children. Someone who wears a dastar once told me ... he does not want his son to have a handicap of dastar which will limit his swimming abilities. Mothers are more concerned about whether their future in laws will allow their daughters to remain vegetarian and to perform path too. Altogether parents are more concerned about financial security of their children and consider religion to be a limitation. Children pick up the bits of religion out of self interest. Some or most parents step in as a discouraging factor. Those who are forced to keep kesh, cannot wait for their parents to pass away so they can get their freedom. We have to educate ourselves and step above maya to realise the true purpose of our human birth and alsothe rreality and the truth which has been revealed in the SGGS. Children currently would give English 6 days a week and 2 hours a week for punjabi, gurmukhi or santheya. Our religion should be seen as part of our day to day living...... not a necessity which elders force us into.

The full video is up on youtube. Irrelevant of whether you agree or disagree it's always worth listening to an "outsiders" experience of Sikhi and what draw's them to it and also, what brings people back into Sikhi.

two problems: diaspora sikhs especially older gen, have a crystallised idea of punjab in their heads all rosy specs and all so find it impossible to accept that Punjab has turned into the mercenary mess it is. younger gen , are just ignorant of history , politics etc of anywhere least of all Punjab they only know it through songs and bhangra and media soundbites , so they just don't care for old school values and cannot work out how their behaviour can be upsetting for their folks . a similar case happened last year when the FIL again killed the DIL who was sikh .again with a hammer . guess it is old school punjabiyat macho seeing it as a right to beat down dissention in the form of independent thought. It's horrible.

look at it this way , what kind of girls have zero/minimal hair on their armpits , legs and bikini area ...pre-pubescent girls i.e. underage girls ...do you want to look like that and what kind of males will you attract ? Those who find that look/feel appealing i.e. suspect Why not do what many of our brothers do and tie more beautiful dastars , elaborate in line , multicolours, make it about your crown not your face . Clothing can be lighterweight but well-cut, simple yet memorable , revive pride in punjabi rav pyjama you don't have to have your legs out to be fashionable these days . you can be well groomed despite the lack of makeup , comb your eyebrows, smooth them with fingertips you don't need to pluck to look sleek, moisturize your skin, eat loads of fresh fruit to get beautiful skin and drink loads of water so you eliminate breakouts , it's not that hard. Your lips and cheeks will have their own internal rosiness skip the blush. exercise daily and your yes will sparkle and you'll an air of confidence from knowing you are Guru Pita ji's beloved daughter.