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Beware of throwing trust on these new outspoken young ppl.

Paapi9, Why can't the Guru Granth Sahib Ji be that teacher that you refer to?

I would just take it from the akj/tapobani. Do ardaas beforehand that Guru ji wat ever the true maryada is , only let the panj pyare tell me that.and whatever the panj pyare say at the Amrit sanchaar(cuz I think akj only do naam drird with Amrit sinchaar) follow that. Sometimes the panj don't say anything about raagmala

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i am in senses , its only logical Guru Angad dev ji, the second Sikh Master, invented the Gurmukhi script.Guru Nanak dev ji named Guru Angad dev ji to succeed him as the Guru for the Sikhs in 1539. Gurmukhi means “from the mouth of the Guru.” people spoke hindi , arabi and other languages mixed punjabi is gurmukhi , and no it wasnt spoken before pick up work from previous puratan singhs and it contains mixture of hindi and gurmukhi it prooves that before them only hindi was spoken, even sant jarnail singh ji has told in katha that viakran is dependent and came from gurbani not the other way around !!

VAHEGURU JI KA KHALSA VAHEGURU JI KI FATEH Are we confusing swas swas technique of doing Naam Simran with being given Naam? There are different stages of reciting Naam and different ways (related to stages to some extent). You can refer to Sant Baba Attar Singh's book (forgot name, its his more expanded biography) which goes through techniques. You can also refer to the ten stages of Naam Simran by Sant Baba Hari Singh of Randhawa for a 30 minute Katha on stages of Naam. Bhai Raghbir Singh's Banginama also goes over some of the evolution if Naam. Techniques can evolve as kamai progresses. Past kamai can also influence how Naam manifests itself when you are given it at the Amrit sanchar. Specific to Taksal, the maryada speaks of the Punj Pyare instructing the new initiates in Naam Simran technique by reciting Gurmantar 5 times (Mool Mantar 5 times as well). Reference is Gurmat Rehat Maryada. Katha on Sant Giani Gurbachan Singh of Taksal narrated by Sant Hari Singh also talked of how when Sant Ji's Naam Simran had not stopped from the moment he was given Naam by the Punj Pyare - awake or asleep, sitting or standing etc. Lastly, never been to Montreal...am from U.S.

Thanks for the references and I agree with the above but what I am saying is that it is very very wrong to hurt religious feelings and Incite blasphemy The theatre behzti program was fiercly protested against and Sikhs used violence

Sick of this word expose every second day .....these vehle people keep saying bad words for every sant mahapursh and sikhs

you forgot the story of 2 singhs who attacked the mughal king with ridhi sidhi to free patshahi 6vi? and how much they were scolded and how angry guru sahib were at them? did you forget the outcome of using ridhi by sahibjaada atal rai sahib ji and we all know how that went

Singh558, Try telling the Iraqi Kurds of Halabja that WMD were a fantasy (1988). The rest of you, The very Muslims you are defending regard the entire lot of you and your stock as "infidels".

Some don't understand the bigger picture because they conform themselves to the western rules of denying freedom to practice your religion. I once witnessed a white guy harassing a brown guy because he was from a different country. The white guy was being rude and loud as he can to mock the poor guy. I wanted to step in, but wanted the brown guy to say something back at first as a way of saying I am not scared of you. Many people were witnessing it and most of the people were laughing. A lot of white people were enjoying it actually. The white guy was with his wife. The brown guy in a loud voice all of a sudden insults the white guy by directing an insult toward the woman he was with. The white guy started walking toward the brown guy and was telling the brown guy, you can't swear at my wife............i will kill you.......i am going to kick your ...... He was red as a tomato. What really got to me was the fact he started the insults and was being racist, but somehow his wife cannot be insulted regardless of what his actions were. Other white people who enjoyed the show up till now also started in on the brown guy after he insulted the white guy back. This incident truly showed what many of these western leaders hold dear to their heart and how they are no different than the terrorist they are "fighting". I say leaders because in that moment the white people felt as they owned and ran everything around them. Insulting a man's race, culture, religion, and language is no problem and no foreigner should take an offence to it. Insult the wife, who slept with many guys before him and now hes going to kill you by stringing you from a tree. All this high talk of condemning the killings of the people is an act whether the person be white, brown, or green. In a split of a second these type of people will do the same if something like their wife or girlfriend is badly insulted.

First of all what is Mool manter? In short, It is the essence of sikhee and the root of spirituality. It is also a reminder to us, the moorakhs, the manmukhs, about the reality and inmensity of Wahiguru Akal Purukh. That, there is only one Lord Wahiguru, and that the way to reunite ourselves with Him, is first of all through His Grace, by which we do the right devotion, and that is the Jap, of His Naam. Ik Onkar Satgur parsad, Jap. Sat Sree Akal.

Great in depth discussion guys...I think mockery of central theme (be it scriptures/prophets) of any religion should not be allowed. As someone rightly pointed out, if people close relatives- be it parents, deceased parents are not allowed to be mocked in cartoon satire by western legal frame work and warrants for legal law suit/defamation/hate crime laws then why spiritual fore fathers/prophets be allowed to be mocked? Absolutely ridiculous double standards/hypocrisy needs to be addressed by law makers. Those who take offend and respond by- cartoon drawings of journalist closed family members just to give taste of their own medicine..i may not agree with your approach but i do understand where you coming from. However, killing someone over it, it has to be condemned at highest level, its totally barbaric not proportionate at all, there is no room for justification for that. Lets not just condemn it but we also to need to understand mind of fascist fanatics goons (of all religious walks of life) as they share same self righteousness mixed with ego syndrome. Right wing Fanatics who decides violence to respond to cartoon (pen) no matter offensive seems to be suffering from following as they are operating from five vices/egoic conditioned mind than real dharma essence: -They think they are somehow chosen ones to stop this either by all means. However, their actions seems always be inconsistent with integral teachings of their faith. -They totally forget essence universal teaching of their religion(love, compassion, humility) would instead wrap their head around on scriptural interpretation of line or two, codes of conduct, examples from history use those examples as precedence, use them to supersede universal/essence teachings of their religion. - They seem to pick and choose portions from their own religion to justify acts of violence hide behind the righteousness mixed with ego/pride. - They operate from their own five vices/blood lust/power lust and hide behind dharam to operate and control - They would give emotional rhetoric speeches to recruit more sheeps who cannot think outside of box and hide behind them. - When their actions are questioned, they will try to demonize, villify those who question them. I am not in favor of marginalize them totally either, community needs to start de-toxification program for these misguided fanatics to try to help them, if they cannot be helped or beyond repair- then community needs to isolate them, nail them to walls, disown them by condemning their violence acts at the highest level so they don't have stronger hold or recruit to push their agenda but at the same time address their legitimate concerns cartoon insult from left wing journalist fanatics. What muslim leaders are doing, its perfect, they are condemning these right wing fanatics/terrorist nut bars at the highest level but at the same time not giving to idea extreme left wing idea of freedom of speech where everything goes. From sikh stand point, since our path of truth is middle way..we have to be careful not be swayed in either directions by upholding our dearest gurmat integral sidhant of true sant-sipahi (where sipahi is naturally spontaneously born out of sant not enforced/not born of conditioned mind) not confused conditioned mind, i think i m glad people are questioning what if those cartoons are of our guru's..what would we have done? what are our values? what really means to be stand for truth but at the same time not give into self righteousness mixed with ego/pride, disproportionate response.

I have mentioned all the points in a comment to the answer (if you check the link). Hair keeping was definitely in practice since the times of Guru Nanak Dev Jee. These people are trying to differentiate between 'Khalsa' and 'Sikhism' which is stupid. Definitely we should also use our freedom of speech, and in a united manner correct such misconceptions, either by commenting on such answers, or by downvoting it in huge numbers so that such false information is removed from the internet.

Great post, and very true. When will people wake up and recognise signing petitions, holding protests are all a waste of time. Countries and governments are only interested in political interests, strategic interests and financial gain. The human rights issues and justice for oppressed minority communities are of no interest to them. Trade deals with India will always hold higher preference. Sikhs in the uk firstly need unity behind a organisation that actually has Sikh interests at heart. Clearly this doesn't appear to be Sikh Council uk , they have been silent regarding the recently released papers showing Thatcher's government and its complicity in aiding the Indian establishment in suppressing Sikh freedom of speech in the uk. There is a general election coming up, now is the time to form a Sikh vote bank and vote against Cameron. He has failed the Sikh community. There is however the issue of, who to cite for, assurances must be confirmed from the other parties that they will support Silg causes. Apparently labour have promised an independent enquiry into the British government's role in 84 if they come to power... But this is the same labour government under who's watch the Rotherham grooming scandle was allowed to take place, the same labour government who apparently allowed the 84 report to be destroyed from government archives. Sikhs need to become more politically involved and put themselves in political positions as per Guru Gobind Singh's 52 Hukums.

ਵਾਹਿਗੁਰੂ ਜੀ ਕਾ ਖਾਲਸਾ, ਵਾਹਿਗੁਰੂ ਜੀ ਕੀ ਫਤਿਹ BREAKING NEWS: New National Archive Information Shows How The British Government Betrayed Sikhs Today National Archives released files from 1985 and 1986, including papers from the Prime Minister’s Office and the Cabinet Office. We have found new documents which expose UK PM Margaret Thatcher's active position against Sikhs. UK Cabinet meetings show a hostile Sikh policy with no sympathy towards the many thousands massacred in Sikh Genocide. The Cabinet papers reveal the 1985 government's obsession with trade in India at the expense of free expression by UK Sikhs. The 1984-85 disclosures show the British Prime Minister's (and Cabinet's) active collusion with the Indian Government against Sikhs who were already in mourning over the Sikh Genocide of June and November 1984. See the documents at: http://www.discoversikhism.com/sikh_news/1984_sikh_genocide.html

Remember what I said in the 'Visiting Paris' thread 2 months ago ? I said : http://www.sikhsangat.com/index.php?/topic/76106-visiting-paris-advise/

I agree that getting the question removed is not a solution. But look at the other way round too. A question is acceptable as long as it is getting genuine answers. Did you go through the answers there? The answers are simply stupid. I agree also that is is better to be the few and proud. And we have no right to force Sikhi on others. However we do have a responsibility to speak up when 'Sikhism' itself is being portrayed in wrong light. We have no problem in what they do, what they follow but when they justify their actions by poinitng their fingers at the teachings of Sikhism and say that these things are not useful etc, and not only that ,they even guide others to move away. You will be shocked to read this answer. Read the question and answer here: http://www.quora.com/Are-there-any-Sikh-atheists-Do-they-cut-off-their-hair/answer/Jas-Anand Ill even post the answer here: "The Question is in its effect divisive. One can't be a SIkh and an atheist at the same time - as Sikhism does teach following one God. The second part - Yes. Sikhism was alive and present before Sikhs ever kept uncut hair and will remain afterwards we are gone too. Same way as Guru Nanak's hair was never uncut - or was later Gurus - It doesn't mean that the rest were not Sikhs of Nanak - They were. Nanak never taught cutting or not cutting of hair. Till almost 200 years and 9 Gurus later. Even Gobind's hair was shorn - but he chose to adopt a new path of Khalsa to fight the tyranny. So you can chose to be a Sehajdhari Sikh or a Khalsa Sikh (with all 5ks) - Both paths are based on the same underlying Granth. However it's imperative to note that Sri Guru Granth Sahib or its writers - from various saints to the Nine Gurus never had full hair. So, it doesn't mean that if you don't have hair / you are bald / you may not be Sikh - Yes faith in the Guru Granth Sahib is required. Yes you may not be Khalsa - if you don't have (hair) or any other of the five K's. (Literally speaking)" So here you go. He says that none of the nine Gurus had full hair !!:O. Even Dasam Pita had shorn hair before Amrit. :-( So many people are reading these answers. What will they understand from this wrong information on Sikhism, and that too when the person posting the answer claims to be a Sikh. ( He also says in another answer that He has always been a Sikh w/o a turban/hair. As I said we don' care what he does, but when people come up claim wrong history of Sikhism, of the Gurus, the of course there is a problem). Therefore, the problem is not of such youth etc moving away from Sikhi, but the problem lies in their wrong portrayal of the teachings and of the history of Gurus, which can greatly misguide not only the Sikhs but also the non-Sikhs about Sikhism.

No one is saying RSS are not a danger to the Panth. They certainly are. But they are not the ONLY danger to the Panth. Right now our mindset is such that we put all our focus on only RSS, but we ignore the other threats such as Christian missionaries who are targeting Sikhs for conversion and have already succeeded in converted tens of thousands of Sikhs, churches have sprung up all over Punjab. Due to our distracted state, we even have Muslims taking advantage and trying to convert Sikhs to Islam. Izhar Alam who killed a whole generation of young Sikh men is now converting Sikhs all over Punjab to Islam and making mosques for these newly converted Muslims. He has even vowed that in future there will be so many Muslims in Punjab that it will change the political scene of the state. But our leaders are completely ignoring these threats while only focusing on the Hindu threat. Then we have internal threats that should not be overlooked. These guys come in two very opposite forms. One are former atheistic communists(kaamreds) in our ranks who after becoming a little religious are now trying to make Sikhs into faithless atheists by cutting us off from our traditions and bani, they are Kala Afghanists and their missionary henchmen. They have a huge following in the western world among the Sikh diaspora. The other internal threat are the Hinduised Sanatanist Sikhs who are hell bent on Hinduising the Sikhs. These guys were sidelined after the Singh Sabha movement. But now after decades of keeping a low profile they are again raising their heads. They very often like to claim using their warped logic that "Hinduism is not a religious term but a geographical term and so Sikhs are Hindus since Sikhs are geographically Hindus". So Panth is being attacked on all sides. RSS, Christian missionaries, Muslims Dawah groups are the external threat and then we have closet atheists(kala Afghanists) and Hinduised Sanatanist Sikhs who are the internal threats. We have to deal with all of these threats all at once. None of them should be ignored. Our people need to be very vigilant against all of these because now we cannot afford to ignore any of them.

How does sangat feel about Mcleod's writings because towards the end of his life I remember hearing negative things about what he had written about Khalsa and Sikhi ? I'm guessing this translation is earlier good works ?

gurbani is not dependent on viakran , viakran is dependent on gurubani , viakran was made from gurubani Sant jarnail singh ji

So by supporting Russia on Crimea , India is saying it's OK for countries to declare Independence and breakaway. Ok Kashmir , Khalistan, Eastern states let's see what India says then.

When we talk about Iranians in general, we're referring to not just those who are the Shia majority, but also those who are Sunni, those who are Zoroastrians, and those who are even Jewish as these communities do exist in Iran, besides the Baloch community and others as well. Punjab is like a communal salad comprising of people following different religions, Sikhi, Islam, Jainism, Hinduism, Christianity, perhaps even Buddhism and not to forget the newly found sect of Ravidasis who claim to be distinct from the Khalsa Panth. Then within these communities we have the "castes". Now they are all Punjabis. So I am wondering, do all these fall under our category/definition of Punjabi, or are we going to call only Sikhs as the sole successors of an Azad Punjab, if not a Khalistan? The land that was lost to Pakistan, and the land that became Haryana, Himachal Pradesh, possibly small parts of Rajasthan as well, used to be Punjab. Under Maharaj Ranjit Singh even Jammu & Kashmir (in part atleast) was under the Khalsa Raaj. It is even said that THAT Punjab stretched from Delhi to Kabul! Now if we're going to invoke the pride of all the above mentioned communities (based on their religions and "castes") as a brand of Punjabi pride, I am not sure how we could follow the Iranian model, although I am interested to know. The proud history of Iran goes back a thousand years, they are proud that no outsider ever ruled them. Punjab was repeatedly attacked throughout history, and has been ruled by several outside regimes/dynasties. The non-religious aspect may not actually apply to Punjabis the way it does to Iranians, mainly because people of each one of the 3 major religions followed in Punjab are fiercely loyal to their faith, i.e. Sikhs, Muslims, Hindus. Neither one is ready to forget their history, whether recent or ancient. Khalsa Raaj was a model regime, it fulfilled almost all the qualities and virtues as mentioned by Bhagat Ravidas Jee. It was a period in history when all faiths of Punjab thrived. An entity based on Punjabi nationalism is indeed an attractive offer, a very attractive one I must say. But I would request more comparisons and insights regarding how can it be based along the lines of Iranian nationalism.

Lohri is Not a sikh festival NOR its a brhaman festival ... Its a cultural festivals of punjabis celebrated in the yaad of dulha bhati a rajput punjabi warrior who clashed with Akbar the mughal king and sundri and mundri two sisters he got married ... celebrating it or not doesnot make u a better or a less sikh ... and its one of the two festivals (after rakhri) we discuss every year on sikhsangat :lol: ...