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  4. JAGTAR SINGH FreeJaggi

    I disagree that the actions taken are useless. If anything the united front that we have shown have unnerved the Indian govt. To have questions asked in the British parliament stating that an British citizen has been tortured would have caused embarrassment to the Indian govt. The fact that Sikh leaders around the world like Jagmeet Singh criticising the treatment of Jagtar Singh Jaggi will have put more pressure on the GOI. Does that image look familar? No. it's not Jaggi but Jaswant Singh Azad and it's not from 2017 but from 2012 when an elderly Sikh maningh Azad from Sunderland in UK was arrested and framed in Punjab with the same charges as Jaggi faces now. It took him 5 long years and it was only in July this year that he was finally cleared. https://www.sunderlandecho.com/news/crime/sunderland-shopkeeper-arrested-in-india-over-alleged-terrorism-and-gun-offences-1-5008858 https://sikhsiyasat.net/2017/07/26/bhai-daljit-singh-bittu-jaswant-singh-azad-acquitted-jalandhar-uapa-case/ Jaswant Singh Azad did not have British MPs asking questions about his treatment, he didn''t have Sikhs around the world rally to his support. This is the difference between 2012 and now. We are more united and we can carry out a well co-ordinated campaign for a fellow Sikh suffering in India. If you look back historically we have had prominent Sikhs not just tortured but murdered in Punjab and yet the Sikhs abroad did not even organise a protest. So I think we shouldn't dismiss what we have achieved in just a few weeks. That fat oaf Amarinder has pretty much turned all Sikhs abroad against him. Do you think he will be able to come to any western country now. If the Sikh organisations use the legal pathways that are available they could have him arrested when he places one step in a western country. We Sikhs should be using the same legal techniques that the Palestinians are using abroad where many Israeli politicians cannot come to some western countries as they could be arrested for abetting torture. Already images of the police dog who tortured Jaggi have been put on facebook. He is known to visit Canada and it should now be up to Sikh organisations to use the law in Canada so that the next time he steps foot in Canada he is arrested for his crimes. That would put a stop to the impunity enjoyed by the Punjab police dogs.
  5. Some more Home Truths

    The romantic factor definitely plays a part. Too many Waris Shah wannabes. It was the early Arab invaders who had an inferiority complex themselves, due to the fact they adopted Persian. I think this rubbed off on the Punjabi Muslim majority, and that in turn influenced the native Hindu and Sikh population. It's the same reason why Urdu is so popular among them today. True. The animosity towards Sikhs was stronger during the period of the later Gurus, namely when Sikhs were beginning to wield more political power. Maybe it was in an effort to cement their power as rulers, in some ways emulating the Mughal Empires use of Persian, which in itself is a non-secular language? I've met quite a few Farsi/Dari speakers myself and it's evident. Most of them still strongly identify with their culture, and of course it's a well known fact that that Iranians hate being associated all things Arab.. As for the Islamic influence in the subcontinent etc being Persian, it's true but even this is now disappearing in more than one aspect. A good example is clothing - many Indian and Pakistanis are now ditching the salwar kameez and kurta pajama in favour of the Arab jubba. A fickle bunch.
  6. Some more Home Truths

    I reiterate again that we need to purge only our vernacular of Perso-Arabic influences, and leave Gurbani as it is. This change can only happen over the next generation, as we teach our kids to speak indigenous words and not pass on Perso-Arabic words. So instead of passing on dunya, you pass on sansaar to your children. This will start the change. And I limit this not only to Perso-Arabic influences, but also English as well. I cringe when I myself or anyway mixes the two languages. Each language has its own beauty and deserves to be spoken with respect, and mixing words from foreign languages is disrespect. We need to unearth the pre-Islamic Punjabi lexicon in order for this to be done. We can draw from 11th century Nath poetry to find Punjabi words that have been killed by their Perso-Arabic replacements. We can also draw from similar or parent languages such as Prakrits (e.g. Pali) and Sanskrit (though some users on here oppose this). We need to actively do this as a community and not as individuals. We as a community will have to settle on an agreement and revise the Punjabi lexicon, and set up a new Shabdkosh. If you respect your mother-tongue Punjabi, then you will agree with this needed revision. What respect are we giving our language by burying its own words into obscurity for the words spoken by foreign invaders, that’s called neglect and is disrespectful to our heritage. As Ranjeet has already stated many of our own are spineless and think that Arabic and Farsi words are more soulful, romantic, respectful, and intelligent. And so they cling on to these foreign words and it’s one of the reasons these words have trickled down from the past to the present. We need to change their backstabbing opinions or completely ignore their nagging and move on ahead with this needed revision.
  7. Some more Home Truths

    What you mean "your theory" Ranjeet ? The proxy war between Iran and Saudi Arabia is the obvious worldwide known fact that is in every paper and every news broadcast. And you think it is just "your" own personal "theory" that you just thought of in your own mind just now ? Well done. That's a very good point Ranjeet. The Islam at the time of our Gurus was very different to the Islam that we have today. It was a faith of poetry, love and ground-breaking philosophy (Punjabi word falasafa - I'll come back to this at the end). Indeed it was through the philosophy of Islam that the world was re-introduced to the Aristotle and the philosophy of the ancient Greeks. Indeed at that time to be a Muslim was to be a true lover of Sophia. But then that changed when a particular brand of philosophy came about and got popular. This brand is harsh, strict and non-forgiving...and once you embrace that philosophy there is no going back to softer tones because this philosophy condemns all others as false. And Islam has been stuck in the harsh version of Islam ever since. They reached the point of no return. We may wonder how and under what circumstances a faith reaches that point of no return but the fact is to a certain extent we Sikhs are doing the same thing right now. Let me give you an example of how, now that we are no longer lovers of Sophia, we are following the footsteps of the Muslims: As you know I like nothing better than to sit down with the bajurgs and listen to their stories. Whenever I talk to any of the old timers that were around the Sikh Gurdwaras of China, Hong Kong, Thailand, Indonesia, Australia etc in the early 1900s they always tell me that the Sikh community and Gurdwaras grew solely because of the Sindhi Hindus. They told me it was always Sindhi Hindu women who could and would read Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji and look after Guru ji. It was always Sindhi Hindu women that sang kirtan for the congregation. So, lets look at it this way. The (the Sindhi Hindus) are largely responsible for our succesfull spiritual growth in the west but now we've reached such a no going back philosophical stage we wouldn't even dream of letting Sindhi Hindu women be our granthis in the Gurdwaras. So you see we too are now, without knowing it, a bit like the Muslims. Like them, once we stopped being lovers of Sophia we became locked in an embrace with dogma. Sophia makes for a prettier embrace than dogma but dogma stays your companion 'till the bitter end. You can't divorce your old girl dogma. Once you tie the knot with her you're tied for life. Being a lover of Sophia is now a distant thing of the past. Now, you remember I said near the start of my message that I'd come back to the Punjabi word for philosophy (falasafa). I wanted to mention it again here because I wanted to show how it ties in with words in the Punjabi language that come from Arabic but have no actual value when used in Punjabi and so should, perhaps, be expunged from Punjabi. The word Philosophy in it's proper sense means to love (phil) knowledge (sofia). We are Sikhs...i.e those who thirst for knowledge. So, in so many ways we Sikhs should be world's greatest lovers of sophia. But instead we take a meaningless Arabic corruption of the world philosophy and incorporate that into our language as 'the word'. It's up to each of us individually I think to resist the closed embrace of dogma and return to the loving open arms of sofia. Its not easy...I know more than anyone how you will suffer for it by being called names and ridiculed. But a step by step divorce from dogma is vital if one wishes to develop a deep and meaningful relationship with one's language, history, culture and faith. When one understands that one understands how the everyday Islam during our Guru's time was very different to the everyday Islam of today.
  8. Some more Home Truths

    persians culture was deeper and more developed than than the invaders and even the raiders had serious envy ...that's why they 'allowed' the architecture and arts flourish despite it being haram according to their eyes . What the arabs planned was to bask in its reflected glory , now with the advent of oil money they can buy their way to being admired and can remake their image to suit without the persian influence. the proxy wars is accelerating because oil is running low now how close was proto punjabi to the early persian languages?
  9. Some more Home Truths

    As usual more rhetoric coming out of your arse. The fact you talk without substance makes it clear you're probably an ardent follower of the likes of Zakir Naik. And I didn't pay for a DNA test to find my "Jatt Scythian" roots, you're the one always banging on about your Jatt heritage. I was also quite well aware that it was estimate, if you had bothered to read my posts properly you would have seen that. You're a confused bacha. Go and play with your jigsaw puzzle Jagsaw.
  10. VJKK VJKF I am wishing to increase my nitnem with more Dasam Bani because I really feel as if I need the bir-ras right now. I already listen to Shastar Naam Mala and Bhagauti Astotar and Brahm Kavach. I am also finding it hard to find a gutka or gutkas with these bani's in them. I would really appreciate it if someone could recommend any gutka with these bani's in them or any other Dasam Bani that they feel is good to do in the day. Thanks in advance! VJKK VJKF!
  11. Some more Home Truths

    Well to your first point, I think some of our people consider Perso-Arabic to be refined and sophisticated and they think it sounds sexy. This feeds into the inferiority complex. To the second point, I think potentially the history of the compilation of our gurbani would provide patterns into what was happening in Punjab. When Guru Nanak Dev Ji was on this earth, Babur was making inroads. So when we look at the bani and see the vocabulary used,we could see how much Islamic influence was around at the time. To the third point, Wahhabism is prevailing. My theory is that there is a proxy war going on between Iran and Saudi Arabia. There is a proxy cultural war happening also. When Arabs conquered the Persians, the Persians were converted to Islam. What the Persians did was to attempt to subvert Islam with their Persian imprint. So to stick 2 fingers to the Arabs they incorporated their own Persian language and culture into Islamic culture. When you see Islamic influence in places such as the subcontinent, SE Asia, Central Asia, Turkey etc what you are seeing is Persian influence. Now the Gulf Arabs have money they are trying to reverse all the Persian influence. That is why they are getting people to say Allah Hafiz instead of Khuda Hafiz for example.
  12. Some more Home Truths

    jeevan vaarna is closer but that assumes ownership of the life which already was given to Guru ji for Amrit .
  13. Some more Home Truths

    Sacrifice ????? You do realise, don't you MrDoaba, that you are the only one in this discussion talking about 'sacrifice' whilst the rest of us have been talking about the word Martyr (shaheed) ???? I swear you're like some lost little kid that wondered into a grown up discussion totally bewildered. Even the word Martyr doesn't mean 'martyr' in the "traditional sense". In the "traditional sense" it means remembering the dead. And it's taken from the olde punjabi (prakrit) word from 10,000 years ago that also meant 'remembering the dead'. Have you wandered onto this discussion by mistake ? Were you looking for a devil worshippers human sacrifice forum but ended up here by accident ? I'm asking because you seem worryingly obsessed with the word sacrifice for some very unknown reason.
  14. JAGTAR SINGH FreeJaggi

    VJKK VJKF I am trying to sort out my account at the moment but I can talk here VJKK VJKF
  15. Some more Home Truths

    Iraqi Shia. Shia is dominated by Iran and they have influence on Iraqi Shia.
  16. Some more Home Truths

    No point telling MrDoaba that JKVLondon. I tried telling both him and YoYo they were making themselves look illiterate by confusing animal sacrifice with human martyrdom But what do we expect? after all he's the ninkinpoop with the IQ of a 4 year old that thought he was paying for a real DNA Test to find his Jatt Scythian roots. Apparently the only one on earth that didn't know those tests are based on assumptions. To make matters worse he then only went and started his own thread about it oblivious to the fact he was announcing his low IQ to the whole world. Poor thing. Not the sharpest tool in the box.
  17. Some more Home Truths

    I met a middle aged Iraqi guy yesterday, he said Khuda Hafiz not Allah Hafiz. What does that mean in a cultural sense ?
  18. Some more Home Truths

    Good point. Fact is though, there is a tendency for people to use Perso-Arabic terms amongst some sections of our community. What is the reason they choose do this when they know the native word? That could be one reason for the increase, but do you mean it in the sense that it was done in an attempt to appeal to more Muslims or because all of society regardless of religion was becoming more Islamicised as you said? Could it have anything to do with Shia-Sikh relations? The Punjabi Muslim who reveres Sufiism is a dying breed. The majority now scoff at qawwali/sufi inspired music. Wahhabism prevails.
  19. Some more Home Truths

    'Balidaan' is not used exclusively for ritual sacrifice. And even if it was, what would you suggest as an alternative word?
  20. Some more Home Truths

    If they are in Gurbani, leave them where they are. However if in Gurbani there are other words that mean the same thing which we don't use, why not use them instead. I would like to know what the percentage of Gurbani has Persian /Arabic vocabulary. What would also be interesting is through the Gurbani from our first guru through to Dashmesh Pita, was there an increase in Arab/Persian words being used as there was increase in Islamicization of the society at that time? What I find strange about the likes of Sartaaj is that these types revere the Sufi ways more than the Punjabi muslims.
  21. So I took a Ethnicity DNA Test...

    Does that mean his works are not for public consumption today as most the community have very little knowledge of Farsi? Personally for me, this reason does not suffice as to why the Zafarnama was composed in Farsi. Guru Gobind Singh Ji clearly had an affinity for Farsi beyond communicating with the Mughals in their official language. We're not going to get anywhere in regards to this, so lets agree to disagree. As someone who is somewhat in the Sanatan Sikh camp I don't disagree with you here. As I've stated in another post, I prefer Sanskritised or original Punjabi to the Persianised variety and my endeavour to promote Farsi albeit connected to Punjabi and Sikhi, does not imply that I am favouring or promoting any Perso-Arabic influence, or at least heavy and unnecessary influence, in vernacular/colloquial Punjabi. If one should choose to pursue Farsi, it should be as a standalone task. The problem we face here though is uncalled-for accusations of Bhamanvaad, something which I have personally faced, including from family. With high rates of aversion to anything even remotely seen as 'Hindu', Sanatan/Puratan, and to traditional Sampardas, it will be no easy undertaking, especially when such strong post-Singh Sabha ideology is still being pushed onto the masses. As for any purge attempted, where would the line be drawn? The link between Punjab and Sikhi is too close to completely remove influence. I am proud of my own ethnicity, I haven't stated otherwise. Punjabis like a lot of ethnicities aren't homogeneous, but are still a distinct quam. I haven't read the Rig Ved so I cannot comment but my point was about the two languages of the time, something which you yourself mentioned in the other thread.
  22. Some more Home Truths

    balidan is not appropriate as it is sacrifice for a ritual...
  23. I used to believe this until I started managing my brother's matrimony profile a year ago who received lots of interest from girls who are looking for non trimmer , vegetarian and religious. My brother being less religious created more problem for him in finding life partner. The main factors that people see in India for marriage is how much a guy earn , how much property his family own and what the status of his family.If by any chance .If by any chance your these factors are on weak side then even super gursikh families won't consider you as rishta
  24. Some more Home Truths

    I'm aware of this bro. The majority of Muslims I have spoken to still use the Persian derivative - one could still easily say Wudhukhanna as the two words do not differ much. My overall point was the one referring to the difference between Wudhu/Wuzu and Gusul. Not just Pakistani Muslims, Indian Muslims have also started this trend of saying Allah Hafiz which is funny because everytime I've said 'Ramadhan', I've been corrected by the same people to say 'Ramzaan'. It's all due to the popularity of the Deobandi sect. I do actually agree there should be some purging of Persian/Arabic words from Punjabi. Despite my views on Farsi, I actually prefer Sanskritized (or original) Punjabi, and regularly receive looks of suspicion when I replace a common word with the original. Today there is definite overuse of Arabic/Farsi where it is absolutely not necessary. The rise of Sufi singers like Satinder Sartaaj and Kanwar Grewal, and even the 'great' Gurdas Maan hasn't helped. Deras like Laddi Shah etc has had a detrimental effect on the youth. To what extent would this purging occur though? There's a thin line between colloquial and religious language.
  25. Some more Home Truths

    And what exactly is your point? Yes the word 'martyr' in current usage meaning sacrifice has an Indic root word. That doesn't mean the root word has the same connotations. 'mrit' doesn't necessarily mean sacrifice or martyrdom in the traditional sense.
  26. Some more Home Truths

    The word Wuzu is Persian derative of Wudhu and Namaz is the Persian for Salah. The Persians had to find a way to purge the Arab words and find their own words. In Pakistan, Muslims are being encouraged to say Allah Hafiz instead of Khuda Hafiz because Khuda is Persian and not Arab.
  27. What would India be if the British never came?

    This poster is always arguing against punj pyare leading anything in Sikhi or otherwise. The current set up of worldly people is not working in any country no matter their level of education, including SGPC (which includes their Jathedar's). You can teach these worldly people all the ethics and morals they want but it all comes down to these people cheating, lying and defrauding the voters. He has more faith in worldly people than punj pyare. The punj pyare have a long history of laying their lives for Gurmat because their teachings are engraved in them. They cannot be separated. Yet this poster argues against the very people who have morals and ethics. Some have grown accustomed to slavery that they think its the warm blanket keeping them from the cold. Since he has 1000% doubt in the punj pyare, taking Amrit is a far inconceivable concept for him. But Sri Guru Gobind Singh ji had 1000% trust in the punj pyare as he showed us.
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